Help a Protestant out

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dailey said:
Also, I hear “sola scriptura” being used a lot so I googled it. Am I correct in understanding that it means that only what is taught in the bible is needed for salvation? So that means Catholics don’t believe in it? Thanks:)
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Your understanding is largely but not entirely correct.

Sola Scriptura means “Scripture Alone” and is a doctrine that basicaly says that the Bible may be used outside of any earthly authority. That the individual, guided by the Holy Spirit, can interpret the Bible on their own. The doctrine of SS removes “The Church” from it’s role as interpreter and teacher.
The result of this has been many-many-many autonomous groups teaching many different and sometimes contradictory things all from the same Bible. ONe groups says the Eucharist is thre real body and blood of Christ, others say it is not. Some say Baptism is necessary for Salvation others say it is not, and so forth.
By removing The Church as arbitor in these discussions there is no way to determine with surity which “spirit guided” interpretation is correct.

Catholics hold to the “three legged stool” of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium (teaching authority) of The Church. Each equally important.

Hope that helsp to clarify.

Peace
James
 
@ JRKH,

Thank you for that post. I was indeed misled to believe that the so called fifth Dogma is actively in the process of consideration. But I did some digging myself and found out that Church is not so keen to go ahead with it.

Again, I could be looking at the wrong sources.

Thanks again.
Joe
 
JRKH said:
Well stated, and It was not my intent to belittle Patricks questions on Mary. My only wish was to try and help keep things in perspective. The main issue MUST be whether the Church is the Authoritatve body with the power to “bind and Loose…Whatever”
Once this is recognized, it is far easier to investigate the various teachings because one is not coming from a perspective that the church must “convince” them on every issue.

Peace
James
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Thanks. Absolutely agree with you here. Accepting the Church’s authority and truth is certainly the most important thing to accept to become Catholic. Teaching on the Eucharist was just for me personally a stumbling block to accepting that the Church has that authority.

BTW - I’ve never seen evidence of you belittling anyone! 👍
 
dailey said:
I have a question about your last paragraph. What is the difference between Roman and Eastern? Don’t Catholics all follow the Magisterium?
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I respect that you asked. 🙂 My life experience is that 99% of Roman Catholics are oblivious to the existence of 22 other forms of Catholicism, and that is shameful. Roman bishops and priests should be embarrassed and sorrowful for proliferating this blindness.

Eastern Catholicism is what existed in Eastern lands before the Patriarch (pope) of Rome broke away from the Patriarch of Constantinople, splitting the universal church in half in the year 1054. In doctrine and tradition and liturgical practices they are Eastern Orthodox, but because the Pope of Rome has reconciled with their bishops they are “in communion” with Rome and hence, by definition, they are Catholic.

Eastern Catholic bishops are included in the magesterium. Whether the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” is binding on Eastern Catholics is a matter of opinion. My priest claims that it was written only for the Roman Church, and given his position as director of inter-religious dialogue in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles (you might have heard of Cardinal Mahoney) he might be right about that. In the day-to-day life of my parish it makes no difference either way.

I wrote a bit of the Eastern view of the world in these two posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6962793&postcount=85

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7001436&postcount=11
 
dailey said:
Also, I hear “sola scriptura” being used a lot so I googled it. Am I correct in understanding that it means that only what is taught in the bible is needed for salvation? So that means Catholics don’t believe in it? Thanks:)
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That depends upon whom you ask. The term is ambiguous, and today it is not used the way it was used back in the 1500’s.

What Luther meant by it was that everything must be traceable to the text of the Bible. For example, Luther accepted and taught (a) infant baptism, (b) that saints in heaven pray for us who are still alive. Both of these doctrines originate in church tradition, but both can be supported with Bible verses after one picks up the ideas from tradition. Luther was not opposed to starting with church tradition, but he said we should keep only those traditions that we can support from the text of the Bible.

Now turn it around. Can you ignore church tradition, and build a good case for those doctrines exclusively from the text of the Bible? The Southern Baptists give us the answer to this question: “No.” For Southern Baptists, sola scriptura means you only use the text of the Bible to make your doctrines, and nothing else.

Catholics and Orthodox reject both of these definitions of sola scriptura.
 
Perhaps this will help you understand some of the Catholic Church’s teachings on the Virgin Mary…

St. Paul says that “Adam … was a type of the one who was to come,” i.e. the disobedient man Adam was a type of the obedient man Jesus Christ. (Romans 5:14)

Since anyone who has read the story of the fall of man in Genesis can hardly think of the disobedient man Adam without also thinking of the disobedient woman Eve, the notion that the disobedient man Adam was a type of the obedient man Jesus Christ immediately begs the question, Was the disobedient woman Eve similarly a type of an obedient woman who was to come? Was there an obedient woman, a handmaid of the Lord, as closely related to and associated with the obedient man Jesus Christ, God’s holy servant, and the restoration of mankind as the disobedient Eve was with the disobedient Adam and the fall of mankind?

Well, Christians early on recognized that disobedient Eve was a type of the obedient Virgin Mary:

St. Justin the Martyr, writing about A.D. 155, contrasted the disobedience of Eve with the obedience of the Virgin Mary, in his , chap. 100Dialog with Trypho.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing about A.D. 189, succinctly said:
And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith. (, book 3, chap. 22Against Heresies)
The symmetry and beauty of God’s plan is revealed, namely, in human terms, mankind was restored in a manner similar to how it was ruined. The first man and woman, Adam and the virgin Eve, of the same flesh and bone, both created with sinless human natures, sinned through a tree (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and brought ruin to mankind; later, in the fullness of time, another man and woman, Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary, of the same flesh and bone, both conceived with sinless human natures, remained sinless throughout their lives and brought restoration to mankind through a tree (the Cross).

Also, because the man Jesus Christ, God’s holy servant and the last Adam, was obedient throughout his life, God did not permit his body to undergo the corruption of the grave. For consistency’s sake, it certainly makes sense that God would likewise not permit the body of the Virgin Mary, the handmaid of the Lord and the last Eve, who was obedient throughout her life, to undergo the corruption of the grave.

Note: The above discussion of “the man Jesus Christ” purposely focuses just on his human nature but this is not meant to deny his divine nature, which gives the actions of his human nature infinite merit and makes his sacrifice on the Cross easily sufficient to ameliorate all the sins of mankind, past, present and future.
 
This is my reasoning for believing Mary is immaculate – freed from sin. My views aren’t necessarily mainstream Catholicism, but they fall within the orthodoxy of the Church’s teaching.

As a matter of faith, Catholics hold Mary was born Immaculate. Christ was borne of a sinless woman as part of God’s plan foretold by prophesies. God preserves Mary from original sin so that His Justice will prevail. In His infinite mercy God overthrows an infernal serpent through a guiltless Blessed Virgin. Those who eviscerate the Blessed Virgin Mary would stain and subjugate Mary to Satan; conversely the Catholic faith holds that the Blessed Virgin is singularly preserved exempt from ALL stain of sin original sin or private sin through God’s grace.

St. Paul suggests; “For as by the disobedience of one man [the original sin of Adam], many were made sinners” (Rom 5:19), consequently any man born has this original sin. Christ being man as well as God should have inherited original sin if born of woman. “Behold the Lamb of God. Behold him who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), the Paschal Lamb, the perfect sacrifice. As a result, there can only be solution to this apparent dichotomy, Christ was born of a new Eve whose original sin had been removed. Furthermore, Christ was born of a renewed Eve who hadn’t known sin because to reside within her womb.

For the Lord hath created a new thing upon the earth: A WOMAN SHALL COMPASS A MAN” we see God’s mystical plan, rightly we should conclude that Mary was Immaculate, protected from knowing the sins of Adam, protected from knowing the sins of men. But, how does one COMPASS Christ the man without ENCOMPASSING the God that is the Messiah? At the moment Christ was conceived God was infused; at that same moment Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually cleaned; as clean as any ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. [It’s important that we perceive this as an infusion opposed to a junction or injection of God into man.] Thus the Blessed Virgin Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant. This Ark would remain pure as did the Virgin Mary in her life of celibacy. Nestorius believed that that God incarnate with man was a “junction”, rather than enosis, that is a ”unification." The Scriptures tell us that the Messiah was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This birth has God literally encompassed by the womb of Mary, much the same way the Ark of the Covenant encompassed the Law in the Holy of Holies. You may recall Moses was ordered by God to build a Tabernacle. It contained an outer court and inner court. Along with Ooliab they built the first tabernacle; Jewish tradition with every tabernacle built thereafter built in a similar manner. Looking at the Tabernacle from outside towards the inside a wall surrounds the Holy of Holies and the inner courts. Only one gate faces the east, a narrow gate; prefiguring Christ’s warning, “Narrow is the gate of righteousness.” The Ark of the Testimony (Exodus 25:16, 22; 26:33, etc.), the Ark of the Testament (Exodus 30:26), the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord (Numbers 10:33; Deuteronomy 10:8, etc.), the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 3:6, etc.), the Ark of God (1 Samuel 3:3, etc.), the Ark of the Lord (1 Samuel 4:6, etc.) was one and the same Incarnate Word of God; all of which were to reside in the womb of Mary. Judaism nor for that matter would Catholicism suggest that God reside in an unholy place.

Mary, a walking talking Tabernacle, the birthplace of Catholic faith. We shouldn’t be much surprised when we hold that with Christ’s birth, another wondrous birth occurs; the birth of God’s Kingdom on earth. St. Jerome would suggest that both Mary and Joseph were sinless, …that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. St. Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Where did the Holy Spirit put the New Covenant word? Christ, the New Covenant, was placed in the Ark of the New Covenant, the womb of Mary. God was infused into man to become Christ. At the very moment of conception, within the womb of Mary, Christ, became man and. Christ was one person with two natures, one of God, the other of man. Thus after the proper time, Christ was born of Mary as according as foretold by the angel; “Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. (Luke 1: 31-33) Eventually, He passes through the veil; it’s not rent, but passes like light passes through a window. Christ now becomes like the Menorah (light) of the world, whose Word fell on the Altar of Incense to rise pleasingly to God, whose light fell on the loaves of proposition (The Twelve). Like Noah the Blessed Virgin Mary carries the spotless sacrificial lamb across the waters of death and sin to land our salvation on the shores of a Renewed Kingdom. The Holy Spirit conceived the Church of Jesus Christ. Any less immaculate and Christ could not be considered a spotless, sinless, the Paschal Lamb Jewish tradition demands. Mary being literally full of Grace, we hold that this Tabernacle will never be desecrated.

Mary had to be sinless for the Messiah to be born. More important, failing to recognize the Blessed Virgin Mary as immaculate, as Ever Virgin, as the Mother of God injures the Creed in most Christians profess One God, with three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To say that Mary was born with sin means that the ‘Perfect Sacrificial Lamb’ resided in filth and thus having contact with sin couldn’t be ‘perfect’ preventing every Jew of the day from recognizing Christ as God. Dismiss Mary’s virginity is to say that God came from the seed of man and to logically consider God needing to be ‘created’ is too much for logic to bear.

JoeT
 
Great thread! I am a Presbyterian at the cross road to Rome also. I have been studying daily for about 4 months. This is the biggest step I have taken in my faith journey and I am a husband and father, so I have a little added pressure.
Here’s what I have found helpful, you need to study the Presbyterian Book of Confessions or whatever your Presbytery follows. I started there to find out what we do believe. It doesn’t help to read books about fundamentalist theology if that is not what you follow. I found a great number of points are in agreement, but there are a few that have large differences. I read Scott and Kimberly Hahn’s book “Rome Sweet Home” and it really hit a nerve with me. After I had read about my own denomination, I made a list of every problem I had with Catholic teaching. I then set to work finding all I could about these ideas. One by one they worked themselves out, except for a couple. I found that after I got past the major items, the others were in the “I see but don’t understand” category. These were not stumbling blocks if I believed the main points.
I didn’t know everything about Presbyterians to be one for most of my life because I had faith and followed their teaching. I can give the Catholic Church that much faith after I have investigated so much. This has not been an easy summer, but it has been fulfilling! I started my search in order to prove that I was right, that didn’t work out. With His help I have learned and kept an open mind.
By the way, talking to a priest and a few good Catholic friends has helped me immensely.
May His Wisdom Guide You,
Ryan
 
The Marian dogmas are deeper revelations that will just jump out at you eventually. Right now try to accept them in faith. I used to think there was way too much hyper attention to Mary myself. But, LOL, I have seen the truth and been woken up. She has a huge role to play still. Never forget that there is this ancient enmity between the seed of the woman and Satan and as Fr. Corapi says “your mother wears combat boots” - she is as tough and strong as she is loving!

Here are some things to keep in mind.
  1. Mary was first Christian - first to beleive first to say yes ('Let it be done according to your word").
    As first Christian Mary also becomes the prototypical example of how every Christian must respond to God - with a trusting “YES!”. Think about the pattern of the incarnation - it is the same pattern of how every human becomes a Christian. We hear the word through God’s call (usually through the Church). The angel of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) announces to the soul the truth of salvation - we accept (“let it be done”) and become baptised to consumate it. That is literally the same process as the incarnation - The Word taking root in our hearts and growing - the inner man becoming Christ Like.
  2. Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit BEFORE PENTECOST! This is huge and most people never make the observation. “The Lord is with thee (Mary}” in the fullest sense before the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church in the general sense. Yet scripture goes out of its way to identify Mary as being present in the upper room at Pentecost. It’s very clear that Mary had a major role in the early church as supporter, nurturer etc. She was clearly highly regarded - where else would the original pre-apostolic accounts of Christ come from? The annunciation, the nativity accounts, the losing of Jesus in the temple for 3 days (foreshadowing his 3 days of burial), the prophesy of sorrow from Simeon, Elizabeth’s accounts, the story of John the Baptist, the accounts at the foot of the cross etc. . It’s pretty clear that Mary is often the primary source of much of the NT accounts.
  3. Mary is the only person in all of human history who knew Jesus the longest period of time - from birth to death to rising to post-resurrection teachings. No apostle comes close to the time Mary had to know The Lord nor to know Him in her unique role as mother and Christian follower.
Once you start seeing these things your esteem for Mary will soar and you can see that God truly favored Mary like no other in human history. There is something extraordinary about Mary - unique among all women.

Start looking to some of the topology who’s principal the apostole Paul confirms in drawing the scriptural analogy of Christ to new Adam. The question is begged - who is new Eve? It’s at that point a no brainer… then go read the ECF’s and see how revered Mary was. There’s not a lot of forensic evidence until the 2nd century but bear in mind too that the Church was originally looking for Christ to return in the 1st century and didn’t start writing a lot down till the Didache in 70 AD etc. and later. Also, keep in mind that the church was heavily persecuted in the first few centuries and much material was probably destroyed or lost. The catacomb evidence of Marian devotion is there pretty early on.

Good Luck,
BF
 
I think you’ve received some great information here. Can I add some very short and sweet comments?
You are not going to understand everything completely. That is true regardless of the community you ultimately affiliate with, and Catholicism is no exception - in fact it probably has some of the most difficult theological concepts. You must have a level of confidence in Christ’s promise to build a church on Peter and to fulfill his promises to lead them to all truth and thereby allow them authority to bind and loose.
There are reasons - and some of us only get glimpses of understanding them - why Mary’s role is unique among all of God’s creation. There is a tremendous mystery in contemplating that Mary truly was - is - and will always be - the mother of our Lord. The dogmas defined regarding her, when truly understood, uphold the true divinity and true humanity of Christ. The fully human and fully divine nature of Christ was the dogma most singularly attacked in the early church, and it is with great passion that the Church has been led to defend it. That is why, IMHO, we bow during the recitation of the part of the Nicene Creed which proclaims, “He was born of the virgin Mary and became man.”
Anyhow, I was supposed to be short and sweet! None of the Marian dogmas are meant to detract from the centrality of Christ in Christian worship - they are meant to uphold, defend and augment it. It’s perfectly OK for you to not fully understand them and yet accept them as one who trusts in the Church and the witness of countless Saints and Martyrs who lived lives entirely devoted to Christ and worshiped him while honoring his mother without reservation.

Blessings on your journey!
 
I love her because she said “yes” to God. She was the first Christian without whom I would die a sinner. Thank you Jesus for creating such a blessed and holy mother. Amen.

P.S. Read the “Canticle of Mary” and you will know her soul magnifies the Lord.

From Luke 1:46

And Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.
He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”
 
patrick86 said:
Every piece of scripture I have read about it doesn’t convince me about her staying a virgin…
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One particular thing I realized a little while ago about Mary’s perpetual virginity is that it’s basically the least insane thing that I am asked to believe as a Catholic 😉

Of course, that’s not a sound logical argument…but I would invite you to consider what it means that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. God’s Spirit overshadowed her, and in that act, she conceived, and so was wed to God Himself. If I found that my (hypothetical) wife had conceived solely by the power of God, I would not even consider going to her in the marital embrace, because she has been set aside for Someone higher than me.
 
Spirithound said:
One particular thing I realized a little while ago about Mary’s perpetual virginity is that it’s basically the least insane thing that I am asked to believe as a Catholic 😉

Of course, that’s not a sound logical argument…but I would invite you to consider what it means that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. God’s Spirit overshadowed her, and in that act, she conceived, and so was wed to God Himself. If I found that my (hypothetical) wife had conceived solely by the power of God, I would not even consider going to her in the marital embrace, because she has been set aside for Someone higher than me.
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This is something that has struck me as well.
The Bible clearly says that Joseph knew how Mary conceived and who’s Child she was carrying. So he knew of the great calling and high honor given Mary by God.
So one only need put himself in Joseph’s sandals for a minute and ask yourself, if you knew what Joseph knew, would you seek marital realitions with this woman?

Peace
James
 
I want to reiterate LongJohnSilver’s recommendation to read Scott Hahn’s book “Hail, Holy Queen”. Considering that Mr. Hahn is a convert (in fact he was a Presbyterian minister) this book helps explain the Catholic view of Mary to Protestants.
 
The best thing I have ever read in the early Church concerning the saints and Mary was by St. John of Damascus (An Exposition of the Faith). The entire exposition is a good read, but Book IV deals mostly with what you are wondering about right now. This was written back in the early part of the 5th century, during the iconoclast heresy (which held that making statues and building monuments and venerating Mary and the Saints was wrong). It really helped me to understand that what the Protestants teach concerning Mary and the Saints is not just incorrect, but it is also a blasphemy to God.

You can read it here: newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm
Read Chapter 13-16. You will notice he quotes a lot of scripture and uses some very easy-to-follow reasoning that anyone should be able to understand. This is what early Christians believed and it is what we still believe to this day.
 
whiteninja73 said:
If reading all these posts is getting boring, check out this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
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Thanks for sharing this video! Very informative and well put together. I had heard and understood some of the things mentioned but I never did notice that the Gospel of John follows Genesis in that way. I also had heard of Mary being referred to as the Ark, but had not realized the similarities. I noticed that there was a relationship, but the way it was explained was very simple and straight forward.
 
Hello,
There have been many good answers here, and about the one post stating that the Pope broke away from the Patriarch of the Eastern church…well, most of us here have heard a different version of that story, but that is besides the point. With all of those good answers, I was surprised that I did not see the “evidence” that had the most effect on my personally. I’m sure anyone who has read the Bible knows what Jesus told His mother and His disciple while he was on the cross. That verse struck a nerve with me and revealed to me how much protestants are missing from their faith and life. Christ, while dying on the cross gave us His mother. With his statement, he affectionaly and effective gives us all a spiritual mother. We are to love her as she loves us as a mother loves her children. Can you ever love your mother too much? That is my bit of scripture that I feel is most pertinent to the honor and love that we show the Blessed Mother.

God bless,

John
 
JohnCS said:
Hello,
There have been many good answers here, and about the one post stating that the Pope broke away from the Patriarch of the Eastern church…well, most of us here have heard a different version of that story, but that is besides the point. With all of those good answers, I was surprised that I did not see the “evidence” that had the most effect on my personally. I’m sure anyone who has read the Bible knows what Jesus told His mother and His disciple while he was on the cross. That verse struck a nerve with me and revealed to me how much protestants are missing from their faith and life. Christ, while dying on the cross gave us His mother. With his statement, he affectionaly and effective gives us all a spiritual mother. We are to love her as she loves us as a mother loves her children. Can you ever love your mother too much? That is my bit of scripture that I feel is most pertinent to the honor and love that we show the Blessed Mother.

God bless,

John
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Actually, in the video posted, this is covered. One of the things that I didn’t ‘get’, was that she was standing next to the ‘tree of life’ (the cross) when we are told she is our mother 👍
 
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