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AgnosTheist
Guest
riiiiight
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AgnosTheist
Guest
what do you mean?
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justinthemartyr
Guest
what is reason?
is it your god?
do you place faith on your reason?
it is evident that you do, even though you will not admit it.
reason is an insufficient god.
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Minerva21
Guest
Well, sure, but it’s not like there is no basis for differing. I bet my life on my eyes everytime I cross the street. But we are all pragmatists, and we will accept the most basic things on faith (except, I suppose, for brief moments of absurdity, and those like Descartes, who fell into insanity when he realized he could not prove that his hands were his own).
However, there remains a thread of positivism in almost everyone’s mind; we try to accept as little on faith as possible, and some people just do not feel comfortable accepting religion. This may stem from an inadequate understanding of what religion is, and what reason it entails.
Particularly unnerving, to the sane individual, is the tendency to the supernatural that religion seems to allow; religion is not supposed to be supernatural. God is not supernatural; on the contrary, God is supposedly the most natural thing there is. There is no magic; God does not violate the natural laws which He set forth, and this idea has been unacceptably lost or tainted by superstition and poor education.
“Whatever a man prays for, he prays for a miracle. Every prayer reduces itself to this: Great God, grant that twice two be not four.”
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AgnosTheist
Guest
**I have faith in God.
I have faith in reason.**
**I have NO faith in religion. **
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bilop
Guest
I don’t think that is quite true. Many prayers are for natural occurances. People to be reconciled to God and the Church. People to recover from illness (not through a miracle, just natural healing), people to find a job, etc. Nothing miraculous, just things that could, naturally, go one way or the other, and we ask the help of God to nudge the account our way.
God Bless
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cyberjacques
Guest
Minerva, you seem to be struggling with precisely the same problem that I did during my conversion. I have always been the kind of person that has trouble simply believing something without at least partially understanding it. This was a tremendous barrier to me in the development of my faith, but a number of things helped me, not least of all my dad, who is a devout Catholic and a brilliant man. He helped me to come to the realization that there is no disagreement between real science and real religion. God is a rational being, and He created a rational universe. He also gave us the mental capacity to see the reason and logic around us. It’s good that you’ve started reading Aquinas, and I would encourage you to read more. His ideas helped me tremendously. I would also suggest reading Gerald L. Schroeder. He’s a Jewish scientist who makes a brilliant case for the existence of God.
I see from your profile that you know something about programming. A scientist once said that God must be a mathematician. I would take it one step farther and say that God must be a programmer. The universe is very object-oriented, as you may come to see. The majority of my conversion happened to coincide with my education as a programmer, and the more I learned about it, the more I began to see that the patterns and processes in our universe function much the same way as a piece of software. Let your brain chew on that for a while, and I think you’ll be pleased with the results.
And, if you want to get into some real meaty science, do some reading on the subject of quantum blur and alternate reality theory. It fits in perfectly with the idea of a universe that is designed to react to conscious will, and the idea that all possibilities are simultaneously contained in the mind of God.
May God bless you on your journey toward the Truth!
I see from your profile that you know something about programming. A scientist once said that God must be a mathematician. I would take it one step farther and say that God must be a programmer. The universe is very object-oriented, as you may come to see. The majority of my conversion happened to coincide with my education as a programmer, and the more I learned about it, the more I began to see that the patterns and processes in our universe function much the same way as a piece of software. Let your brain chew on that for a while, and I think you’ll be pleased with the results.
And, if you want to get into some real meaty science, do some reading on the subject of quantum blur and alternate reality theory. It fits in perfectly with the idea of a universe that is designed to react to conscious will, and the idea that all possibilities are simultaneously contained in the mind of God.
May God bless you on your journey toward the Truth!
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jmcrae
Guest
What we call “God” is the force or entity or phenomenon that brings us (and everything else) into existence, and keeps us in existence.riiiiight
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AgnosTheist
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Now that is something that we can all agree with. Even atheists!
The problem only arise when somebody tries to argue what attributes God is supposed to have. Thats when someone’s God becomes subjective.
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rpp
Guest
Minerva,
I am a former atheist who became Catholic. I was an atheist for my entire adult life and quite anti-Christian. Similarly to you, I am very science oriented and “fact” oriented. I want proof! (I am even from Missouri!)
After more than 20 years as an atheist (I was 42 at the time), I had a sudden, miraculous and supernatural experience. It is very hard to describe but it resulted in my immediate conversion. While this was a completely personal and private experience, it can serve as an example that there really is a God and His Truth is most fully expressed in Catholic teachings.
Since my conversion experience in 2003, I have been studying Catholic teachings intently. I am continually surprised at the scope; the breadth and depth, of Catholic theology. But what is most amazing, is the utter and absolute logical consistency of it. (At least as long as you avoid some of the more modern theologians who do not actually teach what the Church teaches.) Everything is connected and it all makes logical sense.
In fact Catholic theology is so consistent that when you have a more clear and more complete understanding of it, you can determine when a theologian’s ideas may or may not be correct because they either support or contradict some other aspect of theology. As this is one of the tests for a theory using the scientific method, theology can be considered, by some, as a systematic science and approached in that manner. St. Thomas Aquinas did this in his Summa Theologica.
One very important precept of the Catholic is this. Faith and reason are never in conflict.
As you learn more, I think you will find that there are a great many former atheists.
I am a former atheist who became Catholic. I was an atheist for my entire adult life and quite anti-Christian. Similarly to you, I am very science oriented and “fact” oriented. I want proof! (I am even from Missouri!)
After more than 20 years as an atheist (I was 42 at the time), I had a sudden, miraculous and supernatural experience. It is very hard to describe but it resulted in my immediate conversion. While this was a completely personal and private experience, it can serve as an example that there really is a God and His Truth is most fully expressed in Catholic teachings.
Since my conversion experience in 2003, I have been studying Catholic teachings intently. I am continually surprised at the scope; the breadth and depth, of Catholic theology. But what is most amazing, is the utter and absolute logical consistency of it. (At least as long as you avoid some of the more modern theologians who do not actually teach what the Church teaches.) Everything is connected and it all makes logical sense.
In fact Catholic theology is so consistent that when you have a more clear and more complete understanding of it, you can determine when a theologian’s ideas may or may not be correct because they either support or contradict some other aspect of theology. As this is one of the tests for a theory using the scientific method, theology can be considered, by some, as a systematic science and approached in that manner. St. Thomas Aquinas did this in his Summa Theologica.
One very important precept of the Catholic is this. Faith and reason are never in conflict.
As you learn more, I think you will find that there are a great many former atheists.
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jimmy
Guest
That is only partly true. You could say that our perception of God is subjective so that when I say that God is love another might possibly say something else. But God, if He exists, is either love or He is not. In His essence an atribute either is real or it is not.
AgnosTheist, are you an atheist or an agnostic? Do you think there is an unknown God who has not revealed Himself? Or that has revealed Himself through all religions to a degree? Or possibly that there is a natural desire within us to reach out to this God who created us? Or do you believe that God is simply a fabrication of our mind and that all reality is material and can be understood scientifically?
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jmcrae
Guest
People’s opinions about God are subjective, but God doesn’t whimsically change His attributes based on people’s opinions. Either He has these attributes, or He does not, and regardless of what people believe, He just keeps on either having them or not having them, as the case may be.
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jimmy
Guest
We all have a tendency to be positivistic. We see the world and all its physical laws. We tend to accept what we see and what we accept tends to be based on physical reality. I like math and physics myself. I like the way you can predict the way an object will move with certain math equations and models. I like the way these subjects actually deal with the physical world.
I wouldn’t necessarily compare faith to the faith we have that the world exists and that what I see is what it appears to be. I would compare it more to the faith that a husband or wife has for their spouse. Just as in any relationship - which is exactly what Christianity is - we must trust ‘the other’. We must be able to go beyond ourselves to say this person is who they claim to be, they will be there when we need them and their motives are true and ultimately that they do love us and therefore I will live my life for them.
Now there are premises that we must choose to accept, or not, like the Trinity or the Ressurection or even the simple existence of God. These are not against reason but they are not according to reason. We can not say we see this and this therefore God must exist and the Ressurection must be true. But we can look to the world and see clues to the Truth. I can look at the universe and say that even though the big bang is probably true that matter/energy didn’t simply pop into existence for no reason. Or I can say that if God loves me then God desires that I live and not die because if we love another then we will desire that they will live forever. Therefore the ressurection is very reasonable. Ultimately though certain aspects of our faith must be accepted without us saying there it is; I see the fact.
My apprach to my faith is not necessarily philosophical because I am not into the philosophical approach. But you mentioned Phenomenology. I like Gabriel Marcel. I read his Homoviator about a year ago and thought it was excellent. If I understand phenomenology correctly, my view is somewhat phenomenological. I believe that God is near and that each moment of our lives is an encounter with God. Each moment has some meaning to it. If we only seek God in our daily lives we can find Him. I am struck by the thought that I have no idea what the future holds for me. I can’t even tell you for certain what I will be doing in a year. The future seems so unimaginable to me. So seeking God in the present gains a great deal of importance. So it is experiential as phenomenology is experiential.
I hope that helps a little. Can you give some examples of the premises which you are asking about?
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AgnosTheist
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I am an agnostic who believes in God. An “Agnostic Theist”. I dont think God had revealed himself yet. Not even by a small degree.
I dont think so. Since children and buddhists both dont crave for God.
What is fabricated are the attributes that people insist that God possess. Like having 3 persons, being perfect, being love, would torture people in hell, would require faith, named jesus, named allah, etc etc etc.
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jmcrae
Guest
I disagree with that; I have met very few children who aren’t interested in God. In my whole life I have met one child who didn’t like to pray, and I’ve been working with children in one way or another since 1979.
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AgnosTheist
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The children youve met were obviously conditioned to be interested with God. I know, I went through such conditionings. I did not care about God until ive been told what good & bad things God is capable of.
My 7yr old daughter isnt a bit interested in God.
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cyberjacques
Guest
This is wonderful!
It’s much like the analogy I often use of a parent and child. The parent has the child’s best interests at heart, and whether the child likes what the parent does or not, a well-adjusted child will trust them and love them. I believe that’s why God revealed Himself in terms of a Father. A good father will do whatever is in his child’s best interest, even if the child vehemently disagrees, like giving them a booster shot, or making them eat their vegetables. God is our Father, and we are His children.
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jmcrae
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Pehaps. I don’t know. A lot of these kids were being raised in homes where God was definitely not spoken about. They had some really odd ideas about God, which I thought they might have gotten from television.
That’s too bad. What does she think is the purpose of her life? (What task was she put on the earth to do?)
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jimmy
Guest
I wanted to mention this but I forgot totally about it. Prayer is not necessarily a prayer for a miracle. The main idea of prayer is communion with God. It is like a conversation. You hope that your relationship will grow. Read through the Our Father. There is no begging for a miracle in it.
Further, I believe that God will violate the laws of nature if it is what is best for HIs children. If it is best that a man is healed then He will do it. But what we desire is not always what is best. I understand how you can say it seems like magic. But the word magic to me seems like it refers to the idea that I can do cool things if I like. Ultimately a miracle is the will of God. If I pray for a miracle that doesn’t mean I am going to get a miracle. We might get a miracle or we might not. But we must live knowing that what we recieve is what is best for us. Very few people will experience a miracle though because it is not Gods will to just violate the laws of nature simply to satisfy our desires. The only time that God might perform a miracle is if it is necessary in some way.
God is natural as you say but He is not material. He is not the physical laws. In ortherwords He is not natural in quite the same sense that the laws of nature are natural. God is natural because He precedes all things, even the universe. Nature is natural because that is what we see daily over and over. We see things fall to the earth every time we drop them so what is natural is that they fall to the earth. I don’t think it is necessarily supernatural that God heal a sick person.
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jimmy
Guest
Thanks for the answers. Just to get a little clearer. Starting from your signature, which I just noticed, do you think that God gave us reason so that we would seek Him? Or do you think that our reason is simply an aspect of who we are?
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