Help: arguing with a non catholic about the role of sex

[lenni]

ok, just the other day, i had an argument with my friend about the topic of love and the role of sex. However, one problem is that he is an atheist so he is not always convinced by my arguments because he knows im a catholic and i take my religion seriously. I often dont put religion into my arguments but instead i use logic. but i have 2 ques -
a) he told me that he had a fling with a family friend. He said that he had never gone out with her. and was not planning to go out with her. but he said that he and the girl did not get ‘hurt’ after their relations. and have just apparantly gone on with their normal lives. I tried to argue it out that what he did is not justified. I used logic but it didn’t seem to be working - i said stuff about her being emotionally hurt and std etc etc. but alot of my stuff didnt seem to counteract his argument well. I was wondering what would you say to this argument if you were in my position.
b) how do you explain to an aetheist or a non catholic that pre-marital sex or foreplay is not right?? and that only through marriage, these acts are justified. or even how to explain the relevance of marriage when there are so many people in defacto relationships.
(especially when he wants a girl with ‘experience’)
(please dont use facts about stds etc etc - iv used that argument - and technically, he doesn’t care)

ok just for the record, he has divorced parents(his parents were arranged) and his dad is remarried to another women. He lives with his dad and this other women. He also explained to me that at the end of the day the only thing holding his dad’s previous relationship was sex and him(the child). and apparently he witnessed his parents divorce as they kept fighting and fighting. at the end of the day my friend wanted his parents to break up - so that he could get peace. so its resulted in him living with his dad and step mom.

help can someone give me advice with what to say and do?? next time he questions me about a) and b).

• Lenni

 

[StCsDavid]

My tact has always been to act terribly unimpressed when one of my non-believer friends begins sharing his sexual exploits. Not judgmental, but more of an attitude of “Gee, that’s all you got out of it? I guess I’m blessed because my wife and I experience so much more” And then I just try to leave the door open if they want to talk more, but so far they pretty much change the subject.

You probably won’t logic this person to conversion. Simply be friends and keep him in your prayers for his conversion.

 

[namikis]

I don’t think there is anything you can say that will sway your friend. In the absence of faith, a relationship with Jesus, and a moral framework, this type of situation is quite common and easily rationalized. Pope Paul VI predicted this problem would become common place when he wrote Humane Vitae encyclical in the late sixties - though his point of view was not taken all that seriously back then, unfortunately.

I struggle with this personally as I try to share how wrong premarital sex is with my sons, both raised Catholic and now adults. Despite all the education, they do not see this behavior as a mortal sin. I imagine the argument is ‘proportionality’ - “this is not really that bad, no one is getting harmed, everyone does it…” That is where I was at that age (I am in my mid-forties now), so My hope is that they will find their own path over time (though I keep reinforcing the message and do not condone the behavior under any circumstance I can influence).

So as to your atheist friend; I advice compassion. Point out the Catholic perspective but do not turn it into a debate competition. Pray for the Holy Spirit’s help in helping your friend see the light.

That would be my advice.

N

 

[Allen537]

The biggest problem that I have encountered when conversing with atheists is that, in my experience, they see everything from either a relativistic or pluralistic point of view. Which makes arguing with them very difficult.

In regards to the moral aspect, many would say that since God does not exist, there are therefore no real moral obligations, and thus they may live however they wish. Or at least live within the moral code that they create for themselves. There are others, however, that will admit that even without the existence of God, they still have a moral duty to others, though their moral obligations typically are not as stringent as ours is (and ought to be).

It’s a tough argument to make. Though you have a good chance of getting an atheist to agree that they may indeed have duties and obligations towards other people, I believe they would see, for the most part, our views on sexuality stemming from our theology, not our philosophy.

I hope this helps a bit,

Br. Allen

 

[royal_archer]

help can someone give me advice with what to say and do?? next time he questions me about a) and b).

• Lenni

When he is with the girl he loves would he want to think about her with another guy, or several other guys? Does he realize that every time she is with him she is comparing him to her previous exploits? If she has been around about every thing he does with her shes already had done with her and at least one of them probably did it better than him. Does he want to eventually have a girl in a pure relationship? If he sleeps around he is leaving all of these girls less than pure. All of these girls are someone elses future wives. He should respect that in order to have a civil society men do not sleep with other men’s wives, present or future.

 

[NTOT]

ok, just the other day, i had an argument with my friend about the topic of love and the role of sex. However, one problem is that he is an atheist so he is not always convinced by my arguments because he knows im a catholic and i take my religion seriously. I often dont put religion into my arguments but instead i use logic.

Understand though, that ultimately any arguments of logic not having the laws of God for their basis, when questioned to the void and their logical extreme, will fall apart. I do not see a reason to ever cast ones religion and faith in God aside and bring oneself down to godlessness in order to win an argument. You will be certain to get trampled upon sure as night and day.

 

[Tic_Toc]

Um…I don’t think you can argue that premarital sex is bad with someone who doesn’t believe in the church’s stance on it. I mean, biologically, humans are supposed to have as much sex as they can before they become sterile and pop out as many babies as possible. You can play the emotion card, but people get hurt in chaste relationships, too. Immaturity is pretty much the same way–even married people can be terribly immature. I think if you want to win, they kind of have to believe in the church. Otherwise, I think you shouldn’t really bother.

 

[lenni]

Um…I don’t think you can argue that premarital sex is bad with someone who doesn’t believe in the church’s stance on it. I mean, biologically, humans are supposed to have as much sex as they can before they become sterile and pop out as many babies as possible. You can play the emotion card, but people get hurt in chaste relationships, too. Immaturity is pretty much the same way–even married people can be terribly immature. I think if you want to win, they kind of have to believe in the church. Otherwise, I think you shouldn’t really bother.

that reminds me, just the other day he was explaining to me that sex is a necessary part of life. (load of bullocks) He calls the sexual desire to be of a ‘natural nature’ since in every person experiences this need. He said because it is ‘natural’ everyone HAS to fulfill it. Then i retorted, but i mean anger is an emotion just like this ‘natural’ feeling of sex. It comes and goes. Besides if ‘the sex drive’ is a ‘natural emotion’ (thats the way he puts it), one can loose this drive. Then i explained that the female’s drive is more dominant when the are 35yo and the male’s 18yo and as one grows older, one can loose this passion. Like any other emotion, say if compared to anger.
aahhhggrrrhhhh…but he still retorted…
also now im getting really frustrated because (man, im so dead if he reads this) but he is only 17/18 and works for a dating site that gives advice to 40 - 50yo men who have not ‘hooked-up’ with anyone. so like in other words - he meets these men at clubs and he kinda takes on the role of ‘hitch’ from the movie, ‘Hitch!’
now, honestly, his advice would not be the best because it is pretty much rooted to his own philosophies. mmm…i honestly, dont know what to do to help him out when he is so strong headed about ‘love’ . (coz although we do argue on stuff like this, he is still one of my good friends)