Help! Backlash on trying to restore order in liturgy!

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Simon - thanks for your response, I will type out a list of my concerns hopefully by the end of today. For now I just want to respond to a few others.

First off - I am sorry again that I didn’t make it clear. I called it a “liturgical commitee” for the sake of brevity. There is in fact, no commitee on the liturgy. None what so ever. The only commitee is a bunch of students who basically deal with all things Catholic around town - because this is a student town. The committee deals with things like helping out at the Mass, organizing events, fundraising. It consists of 5 students including me, and I am the most senior student in the group.
. . .
You see, my letter - which was actually a quick email to 5 people - was never meant to be such a big deal. I was merely pointing out what and why I thought certain things needed changing. But I do understand your point, that maybe I am not entirely correct.
Hold on . . . seriously? Do I have this right: You sent your email to the other four students on your liturgy -]committee/-] club(?), then one of them responded with the email you showed us above, and that’s the big “backlash” about which you’ve pleaded for “Help! Backlash on trying to restore order in liturgy!”?
 
Hold on . . . seriously? Do I have this right: You sent your email to the other four students on your liturgy -]committee/-] club(?), then one of them responded with the email you showed us above, and that’s the big “backlash” about which you’ve pleaded for “Help! Backlash on trying to restore order in liturgy!”?
While I sense your obvious wit, I don’t appreciate the tone of the reply. What are you trying to imply? That I am not within my right to call it a backlash? That I am being silly?

Do you not understand that we on the committee - and it is a committee, how dare you degrade it to a club - make all the decisions and changes around our Parish? Did I not make it clear enough? And that this backlash is basically the response from all the members compiled into one email basically to say “Yeah right, you aint getting anywhere with this, you traditionalist idiot”.
 
While I sense your obvious wit, I don’t appreciate the tone of the reply. What are you trying to imply? That I am not within my right to call it a backlash? That I am being silly?
Well, I mean, who’s this email from, some college sophomore or something? Frankly, yes, I do think you would be fairly silly howling about a “backlash” because one other kid in your town wrote you an email disagreeing with you. I’m not sure you understand the word “backlash,” because what you’ve described is not a backlash, it’s a difference of opinion. This appears to fall squarely in the category of “grow up.”
Do you not understand that we on the committee - and it is a committee, how dare you degrade it to a club - make all the decisions and changes around our Parish? Did I not make it clear enough? And that this backlash is basically the response from all the members compiled into one email basically to say “Yeah right, you aint getting anywhere with this, you traditionalist idiot”.
Oh, calm down. You said, “There is in fact, no commitee on the liturgy.” Sorry if I took that to mean that you were a club about the liturgy, rather than a committee that’s not about the liturgy. After all, if you’re are a committee but you’re not “on the liturgy,” then why should you think the committee would have anything to do with reforming the liturgy? Or if you’re indeed a committee (as you now claim), and you actually “make all the decisions and changes around [y]our Parish” (even about the liturgy, apparently? uh, you might be a little confused about the canonical stature and authority of a band of college kids), then don’t claim that there is “in fact, no committee on the liturgy.” (Or is this a case of, “The first rule of Liturgy Committee is, you do not talk about Liturgy Committee. The second rule of Liturgy Committee is, you do not talk about Liturgy Committee.”?)
 
Yes, he is in university, as I am. And you fail to see the point. You are sticking to the idea that we are students while ignoring what our role in the parish is. Sure, maybe I was a bit liberal with the word backlash. But thats what it is, in my opinion, or at least, what it will turn into. I already tried speaking up, got shot down, so sent my little letter, and now got this rather rude response. If it is not obvious to you, it is to me, and maybe because I am closer to the problem and know all the details, that this is basically someone saying “Ya ya, whatever, get lost” in point form.

You have made this much more complicated then it needs to be, with that last paragraph. In one of my first posts I made it clear we are a committee, and we deal with everything. But we are not a committee on the liturgy. The liturgy is one of many things we speak about.

Are you here to discredit me and the committee or are you here to add anything to my thread? I already know the answer - “band of college kids”. Who do you think you are? I think you might be a little confused here my friend. Maybe where you are from things are lovely and you have people to go to and to appeal to. As I mentioned, if it aint me, its nobody.
 
May I make a suggestion, MarkThompson?
  1. If you don’t like the fact that “a band of college kids” have this responsibility… please, join my cause, and get someone official to come and sort things out.
  2. Avoid my parish if you think that “a band of college kids” means inferiority.
  3. Avoid this thread if it angers or irritates you to the point of name calling, patronizing and off topic posts.
 
You sent a letter that was passive aggressive and you got a negative response. That should not be at all surprising. In addition you mixed far to many points and made all your statements as if they were facts rather than admitting that some things were only questionable and in no way strict teachings.

For instance you did not even post the teaching on projectors, and I have never heard of such a thing before so I am curious as to what it says and when it was written. I can’t even find anything on it and ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur319.htm that recent answer from EWTN seems to indicate not much has been said about them at all. However you went right into a tirade about how “Truth is still Truth” without considering the facets of changing technology and how it could effect things, so unless this teaching is extremely clear about projectors never appearing in the Mass that alone would be a clear example of you being unwilling to engage in a real discussion on the matter.
 
Patrick, point taken. I suppose I was quite passive aggressive. But let me state once again… I was completel shot down when I tried to talk about any liturgical changes. Nobody wanted to hear it, and we moved on within a minute. When people are so entrenched, sometimes a shock to the system is needed just to say hey, things can, and sometimes, should, be different. My intention was never to be aggressive (active or passive), so my conscience is clear.

In my original letter I did quote the teaching, but I couldn’t sift through my stuff at the time to find the original teaching, but here it is.

De Musica Sacra de Musica Liturgia
Sacred Congregation for Rites - September 3, 1958
  1. The use of any kind of projector, and particularly movie projectors, with or without sound track, is strictly forbidden in church for any reason, even if it be for a pious, religious, or charitable cause.
 
Just to be clear too.

I have never said that my points were to be taken as fact and/or 100% authentic interpretation of Church teaching. I quoted documents to make it known that I have legitimate concerns. If you read again, I do comment, and often I say that I am not sure, and that perhaps things could be made clear and I also say what I think the problem is in our Parish. I never, EVER, said that “This is it, I am king, I am the all knowing truth, do it or go somewhere else”.

Perhaps I could have made it more clear, sure. But what response would I have got?

The same response to my questioning a solo guitarist singing a secular song about “You are the one for me” during communion - “Ah, you know, it doesn’t really matter, we like it”.
 
Any type of committee in a parish is purely advisory or consultatory. They have no power to change things. The pastor is the head of the parish. Does he attend your meetings? Does the committee report directly back to him.

You say you are in South Africa. If I am correct, they are currently dealing with the real backlash of introducing the revised translations before they were even given the recognitio by the Vatican. Perhaps what your committee needs to do right now is focus on the implementation of the revised Missal and clean up any negativity that has occurred because of the lack of catechesis to go along with the revisions.
 
Pick your fights wisely, NewsTheMan. When instituting reform, if you’re not careful you become a noisy gong and clanging cymbal. And as someone said earlier, you lure more flies with honey than you do vinegar.
 
NewsTheMan

You are right to stand up and speak out when you see abuse. The good news is that the Roman Missal has been revised and some of the abuses will be eliminated that way.

[edited] keep fighting and standing up for truth for what is right and proper to do in liturgy when we approach the Lord.
 
…take NO ACTION for an entire year other than listen to all the others on the committee and get to know them as people and as Christians. Ask your pastor to teach you about liturgy, or to refer you to someone in your diocese who can teach you. And pray for a humble servant’s heart.
Emphasis mine.

This is excellent advice for anyone who has chosen to serve on any committee in the Church. :love::love::love:
 
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georgewithfaith:
Also, consider, attending a Latin Rite parish, the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. You will never have to worry about abuse there.
This just isn’t true. The EF can be abused, albeit not as easily as the OF. I’ve seen priests barreling through it like an express train, and when that’s done, far from seeming beautiful and reverent, it seems dutiful. I’m glad that the EF is available, I hope it will become available in at least one parish in every city if not every parish, but it is not a cure-all.
 
It is not exactly a committee on the liturgy. I am on the commitee for the catholic student group, and we deal with many different things, among them the liturgy for our Parish. There is no real committee, basically, we just speak about “problems” once a year and then when nobody has said anything we move on.
The only commitee is a bunch of students who basically deal with all things Catholic around town - because this is a student town. The committee deals with things like helping out at the Mass, organizing events, fundraising. It consists of 5 students including me, and I am the most senior student in the group.

We hold a meeting every year. Usually, I do not attend, for some reason or another. This year I attended in order to sort out my issues.
I guess I have to ask about the origins of this committee. Is this a parish-sponsored group or a group of folks who just want to talk about the parish?
Meetings only once a year? And you usually don’t attend? No wonder you got such a negative response. You basically crashed the party.
As good as your intentions might be, and I have no reason to doubt, I’m afraid you did come on like a bulldozer and now need to back off, but that doesn’t look like it will be able to happen until next year!
 
Cat as for your own response. It is somewhat patronizing, to be completely honest. Are you saying that because I am not a Canon Lawyer, a seminary student or older than 25 that I cannot even begin to make such changes. These are rather arbitrary standards when we are speaking about the liturgy. I have had no training, no. I would certainly like some. But it takes no training to see that certain things are wrong, or should be rectified. You see, my letter - which was actually a quick email to 5 people - was never meant to be such a big deal. I was merely pointing out what and why I thought certain things needed changing. But I do understand your point, that maybe I am not entirely correct.

Can I just say that I never ever suggested replacing music with Gregorian Chant. The response I got implied that I suggested as such, but I never did. Maybe it was careless of me to quote the documents - although, in my original letter I bolded the parts which I was talking about. In any case, I just wanted to highlight, in some sense, that music is meant to be sacred, and not the wild music we have at Mass at times.
You can begin to make changes.

That’s not what your initial email implied. You sounded like Martin Luther, sweeping through to upset the entire apple cart, hose down the fire, and start all over again.

I stand by my post. Start very very small, with just one little tiny thing. EARN the trust and love of the congregation by your good works in the parish and in the community. Show them–don’t just tell them, but SHOW THEM that you are a Christian who loves the Lord Jesus and loves the Church and LOVES your fellow Christians. Do actions–take on the most humble job in your parish (cleaning toilets?) and do it with all your heart faithfully and cheerfully.

THEN the others will respect and love you and listen closely when you point out the problems with the liturgy and suggest the changes that should be made.

And you will gain allies, others who admire your works and see Christ in you, and these allies will listen to what you say about the liturgy and they will not only believe you, but they will join with you as you ask for changes.

Right now, you are seen as a usurper, some little smart-aleck who is daring to confront the priest and the people. Continue on the course that you are taking now, and you will find yourself ousted from the fellowship. The Bible is very clear that we are to seek UNITY, not division. The reading today from St. Paul made it clear that we are not to create factions in the Church. If you continue to barge in and write missals, that you will lose not only the respect and love of the parishioners, but you will not see any of the changes take place, and all you will have to show for your efforts is pile of unpleasant emails.

Instead, heed my advice, please. I am older than you and I have been through much of what you are going through, only as a Protestant. Start very small. Don’t be in a rush. Be humble. Work at humble jobs in the parish to demonstrate that you have a loving, Christ-like heart. EARN the trust of your fellow Christians. Win allies from the other Christians.

THEN speak up, quietly and firmly and lovingly, and start with just one change. Then when that change takes place, move on to the next change. And the next. Precept upon precept. One thing at a time, very slowly.

You will find that in the end, you’ll see all the changes that are proper, and you will keep the love and respect of your fellow Christians.

Yes, I know–many on this board will say that you shouldn’t HAVE to start small, that you shouldn’t HAVE to “earn trust.” They will tell you that every Catholic has a RIGHT to a proper liturgy. They will cite Church documents proving that you are right and Cat is wrong.

Well, I agree with all that. But do you want to see changes, or just be right?

My advice is sage and wise. I hope you think deeply about it.

I would suggest reading I Kings 12: 1-16, especially vs. 13. It seems applicable to your situation, although the obvious difference is that you are correct to want to correct your liturgy, while King Rehoboam was incorrect to want to raise taxes. But the principle of listening to older, wiser people is in the passage.
 
But let me state once again… I was completel shot down when I tried to talk about any liturgical changes. Nobody wanted to hear it, and we moved on within a minute.
It sounds like you don’t have much experience with committees. Whether it’s at work, at church, or with some social group, a committee works on consensus. You may have the most wonderful idea in the world, but if the rest of the committee disagrees, then that’s the way it goes. Coming to your first meeting as a know-it-all who is going to take charge is not a good way to get started. Humility goes a long way. So does working on positive relationships with the other members of the committee.

Keep in mind, too, that in the Church, committees really have no power. A parish council is an advisory body. They can make recommendations, but it’s up to the pastor (or whatever you call the priest in charge of the parish) to agree or disagree. And if he disagrees, that’s the way it is, even if the recommendation was unanimous.

So far what I’m hearing is that you showed up at this committee for the first time, proposed massive changes, got shot down, had your feelings hurt, sent a long, disorganized e-mail, failed to convince anyone that you were right, and now have come here in the hope that people would tell you that you were absolutely right. Instead what you’ve mostly gotten is word that you handled things badly.

Since you haven’t convinced the committee and haven’t convinced total strangers on CAF that you are right, perhaps it’s time to rethink your strategy.

You might figure out what your one or two priorities are. How do you want those items to change? Are they abuses or merely matters of preference? How does your pastor feel about them?
 
As always, my a lack of context gets in the way of peoples judging the content. I suppose I should know better… so let me clarify some more, because people seem to think the context is more important than the content.

The committee is not parish sponsored. Again, we have no such things here. You are all coming in with your own ways of doing things too, don’t forget that. Parish sponsored doesn’t happen around here. It’s either, you do, or you don’t. So either the commitee exists or it doesn’t. And for the good of the student community, it exists.

The AGM happens once a year, this is the meeting where liturgy is handled. Yes, I usually do not attend those meetings because they are usually exclusive and/or I didn’t want to deal with my concerns, rather letting them float on by. Anyway, as it happens, I was actually invited to attend the meeting because through my relationship with the ‘president’ of the group, he came to realise I would be helpful.

However, we do otherwise meet to discuss ‘general’ things about twice a month. And I am in constant contact with a few guys, simply because we are friends. I had already proposed changes a while back - and thats probably why I was invited to the meeting, where I got shot down - which is why I sent out something to show my concern and that I am not pulling things out of my rear.

Now, the problem here is that everybody is seeking context and personal story. How much should I say? What should I keep adding to my background information? Or will I have to keep going off topic in order to justify myself?

Do I have to mention that I was the one who was originally invited? That I was the one who put my foot down and got Adoration started? That I was the one organizing the prayer group? You see, if I say this, and more, I am now boasting about my actions. But if I don’t say this, people claim I have no right to do anything.

Look, if you want to talk about listening to your elders, then apply it universally, in which case these guys should listen to me since I am the elder. I have done this as lovingly as possible, sometimes though it doesn’t always translate on paper (email ;)).

I do want unity. I do want our Church to be better. But I don’t understand some of the replies and objections here. In fact, I am seeking greater unity, that is what I am seeking. My actual main objection from the start, before I noticed some minor abuses, was that there is a palpable divide in our congregation between, basically, the choir, and everybody else. 80% of our Mass attendees literally stare at the ceiling with open drooling mouths because of the lack of unity - because the choir has decided they are more important.

In any case… As I said to my friend who gave me those little points:

Unity does not surpass the rubrics and proper celebration of the liturgy.
The rubrics and proper liturgical celebration seeks to unite us.

Perhaps I was a bit of a bulldozer, but sometimes, as I said, this is what you need. I am not an idiot or a socially unaware being, I know what is appropriate and what is not. Had I merely taken the backseat, I would have got the same old responses as always, and nothing would change.

Sure, I admit that some things I bring up are matters of preference. However, I always said, maybe not on here, which is my mistake, that all I think is important is a unified Mass that obeys the law. I am not for or against one way or another as a matter of preference - I am for and against one way or another as a matter of unity and correct celebration. Perhaps tonight I will compile the list of my problems, have had a busy day so far and I am drained.
 
I would not be so quick to judge the OP. His intent was good. All too often, there comes a time when a person in the pews cannot take it anymore and needs to speak up and defend the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Roman Missal, the GIRM and RS provide the guiding principles of the Mass. We are called to be obedient and faithful to the norms, not engage in some sort of free form exercise in creativity.

I can certainly understand where the OP is at because I have been there myself. There is nothing wrong with speaking out in defense of the Church, in defense of an authentic ars celebrandi. Of course, it would have been better to write a more structured letter and list the problems in the order of severity, from worst to least.

St. Catherine of Sienna was not educated, yet, she boldly spoke out in defense of the Church and pretty much told the Pope at the time that he had to leave Avignon and return ot Rome, where he belonged. Sometimes, the laity have to be the ones to speak out.
 
because people seem to think the context is more important than the content.
Context is always the issue. There’s a time, place, and way to do almost anything. There’s also a time, place, and way to not do almost anything.
The committee is not parish sponsored. Again, we have no such things here. You are all coming in with your own ways of doing things too, don’t forget that. Parish sponsored doesn’t happen around here. It’s either, you do, or you don’t. So either the commitee exists or it doesn’t. And for the good of the student community, it exists.
OK, here’s the problem: no one knows what you’re talking about. Are you talking about liturgy at a school chapel or at a regular parish?
The AGM happens once a year, this is the meeting where liturgy is handled. Yes, I usually do not attend those meetings because they are usually exclusive and/or I didn’t want to deal with my concerns, rather letting them float on by. Anyway, as it happens, I was actually invited to attend the meeting because through my relationship with the ‘president’ of the group, he came to realise I would be helpful.
OK, once again: what is this group? Why would the pastor or chaplain care what they have to say?
 
Thank you Newstheman and Benedictgal for the stand and basic support. I can fully appreciate your stance. As stated by others, your letter was a little “rough” but it certainly got their attention.

Benedictgal is correct when she states that the GIRM & RS are the guiding regulations for the Mass of today.

Personally, I would try to find an EF Mass. Life is too short for lots of big “fights”. Been there, done that.
 
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