HELP! Bible/Catholic Chruch contradiction (?)

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WatchfulPilgrim

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Hi,

I’ve always had a problem with the way in which the Catholic Church promotes political involvement and activism, and sometimes even war or self-defense. It has always been clear to me that Jesus did not get involved with changing the corruption around him by forbidding evil or by carnal warfare. He even went so far as to teach that we should be ready AND WILLING to suffer mistreatment.

Anyway, I was called back into the Catholic Church after 5 years of associating with and nearly joining a really conservative Mennonite church. I didn’t want to do it. And I saw everything wrong with coming back into the Catholic Church except that I could not deny that I was led there. Of course, now my Mennonite friends think I am nuts b/c I’m not using scripture as my guide but some “intuition” or “inspiration” which cannot be trusted.

So, after just a few weeks, I am now being called to do something else I am completely opposed to doing. I am supposed to join the Pro-Life Movement. Now, I have always been against abortion and am an advocate for life at all stages and circumstances, however, my weapon against it has always been to be a witness to those around me and to transform the world starting with my own little corner of it. That and prayer. Yet I am clearly, CLEARLY being led to have something to do with joining the effort to illegalize abortion in America.

So… Without getting into a lot of detail about that - Can you all explain to me how it can be that Jesus did not get involved with stopping the corruption in the world by political-type means, but rather, through converting and changing the inner-man - yet somehow it would be fine for a Christian; an imitator of Christ - to use the ways of the world in order to superficially change things? I mean, if we passed laws to illegalize abortion, there would still be an abortion mentality. WHAT GOOD IS THAT???

Please help me see how this makes sense. I pray I am not deceived…
 
When the inner man is converted and changed, he ought to DO something about it. The good person should not ignore evil - he should do something about it. Sometimes this might mean converting the evildoer, but the guy may not be open to conversion, so other measures become necessary.

We live in a nation in which more babies die than live. This is a grave injustice against human life. Yes, it is essentially a moral problem, but it is also a political problem - we have laws that are very permissive for abortion (and laws are political entities). This certainly promotes and encourages the practice. The problem needs to be confronted on BOTH fronts. It’s not an either-or choice; we can do both.
 
DavidFilmer said:
When the inner man is converted and changed, he ought to DO something about it. The good person should not ignore evil - he should do something about it. Sometimes this might mean converting the evildoer, but the guy may not be open to conversion, so other measures become necessary.

We live in a nation in which more babies die than live. This is a grave injustice against human life. Yes, it is essentially a moral problem, but it is also a political problem - we have laws that are very permissive for abortion (and laws are political entities). This certainly promotes and encourages the practice. The problem needs to be confronted on BOTH fronts. It’s not an either-or choice; we can do both.
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But what did Jesus DO about the injustice around Him?
 
I don’t like what I’m being asked to do. I am being asked to play the world’s game. Politics does not change a person. Only God can do that. But I am being asked to get involved politically and actively (I think).
 
There is nothing wrong with using just social/political mechanisms to do the will of Almighty God.

Embrace the cross that God has intended for you. It is not to heavy, simply take up Christ’s yoke and you will find the strength and the resolve to do what He is asking of you. Praying for you Pilgrim.
 
WatchfulPilgrim said:
But what did Jesus DO about the injustice around Him?
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Why do you think the authorities wanted to kill Him? Because He told everyone how just they were?

Also, was the Law not sufficiently severe in punishment required in retribution? Why would Jesus be required to make it even stricter? OTOH He never said that the Law should be done away with, just followed in its entirety which includes the quality of Mercy.

peace
steve
 
Often when you are called to do something, you will be out of your comfort zone, it may sound crazy, obscure and downright stupid and yet despite it all, if you are being called to it means that God wants you there for a specific reason.

You sound very uncomfortable with it which again is normal. I’m experiencing my own God you are nuts aspects which are part of my calling. There is a saying when you know when you are growing because you are uncomfortable. I think it is important to seek God earnestly and ask him to confirm if this is his calling and ask him for help and courage to do this if it is so.

When I was Pentecostal, I was very pro-choice and now I am very pro life so I sympathize with your discomfort. If you are worried or extremely uncomfortable talk with your priest and/or spiritual director because they might be able to shed some light for you.

I’m experiencing my own discomfort therefore if you have any questions, please send me a line. Maybe I can help you.

Good luck,

SG
 
thenobes said:
Why do you think the authorities wanted to kill Him? Because He told everyone how just they were?

Also, was the Law not sufficiently severe in punishment required in retribution? Why would Jesus be required to make it even stricter? OTOH He never said that the Law should be done away with, just followed in its entirety which includes the quality of Mercy.

peace
steve
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I understand your first point - I don’t the second… I’ll pray about it - maybe you can clarify this for me (?)

In response to y our first: I am not (only) being asked to “tell it like it is” - it seems to me that I am uncovering something. To me, this is playing a political game. I do not like it.
 
Christ came to save men, not to create a better political system. However, Christ did not seem to have a problem with the governemts and political systems, he had a problem with the hypocrites and sinners of his time. Yet, we are told in the Bible to admonish the sinner. This means that those who perform abortions need to be told that this is wrong. In our large world, the best way to go about this would be through the laws. The governments are also the best way to create peace, justice, and order in this world. While they can be misused (and are), these still are a way to create a better, christian world. So, since the government is the best way to stop this evil and since going about using this method isn’t inherently sinful, the government can and should be used to stop evil such as abortion.
 
You don’t have to get involved in social or political issues. Many Catholics are not involved. If it was a requirement for Christians, there would never be cloistered nuns.
I like the pro-life movement, but someone shouldn’t be saying that joining such a group is a requirement for Christians, if that is happening.
 
First thing, Christ wasn’t always meek and humble. He burned with righteous anger when He whipped the money changers in the Temple. Let your righteous anger be expressed by working to get abortion outlawed.

Second, Paul used the political system to spread the Gospel when he demanded to be sent to Rome because he was a Roman citizen.

Lastly, I think you are overthinking this. We outlaw murder because respect for life, and yet there are still murders. By your logic, we should repeal these laws.
 
Wow - this is all good stuff. Thanks so much!!

@mdgspenser: Someone is spiritually telling me to get involved politically. It’s creepy. I don’t know if it’s legit or not. It goes against everything I’ve ever believed!! But I am being told (spiritually) other things too that can be verified, and almost all have come to pass already. But I’m still creeped out. Satan is the father of lies…
 
WatchfulPilgrim said:
But what did Jesus DO about the injustice around Him?
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Well, according to Matthew 21:12-13, He flipped tables and seats and chastised the money changers and the dove sellers in the temple. It sounds to me like he was willing to “DO” something when appropriate.
 
What an interesting thought!

First: you are not “supposed” to now be in some politically active Pro-life group. The pro-life mentality and call for action, yes. But not once during my baptism or confirmation did that ask me “hey btw you must sign up to carry a sign outside planned-parenthood asap.” Now, praying outside of planned-parenthood is great, but if it’s not your thing it’s just not.

Secondly, my priest informed me what it meant to “turn the other cheek” and I think you’ll find it interesting. Matthew 5:39 says “But I tell you not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well.” It was customary to slap open-handed with only one hand (I can’t remember if Fr. said right or left. I guess left if you hit the other person on their right cheek.) So if you turned to him your other cheek, you were not offering it up for him to strike, you were turning so he would not hit you again, but you weren’t doing so by force or physical means. You were taking a stance without being violent.

Third, I love that you mention “if abortion were made illegal tomorrow, people would still have the abortion mentality.” I think that is so spot on with why we need to change minds and not just laws. We couldn’t possibly just outlaw abortion tomorrow, everyone would flip! But if we, as a Christians (ALL Christians) work to change more minds about abortion then eventually we will be able to pass public policy on the subject. We can’t possibly change EVERYONE because there will always be sin. But we could certainly form youth and change the attitudes of many adults so that when the law changes, the people are ready for it.
 
WatchfulPilgrim said:
Why do you think the authorities wanted to kill Him? Because He told everyone how just they were?
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Uncovering something like the truth? As in revealing person’s secret sins in publc? Yes that would be a sin (like detraction). But letting others know the truth of what they are planning to do? No.

With regards to my second point, this point has to do with why Jesus was not political. There already was a law existing (Jewish) and it was perfect. Did it not cover abortion as well? However those who were supposed to teach it did not follow it themselves.

Now if you mean why Jesus did not resist the Roman Empire, I admit, there is no actual information in the NT regarding this aspect of His Life. I’m not sure of the totality of the authority of Rome’s Laws in effect in Judea at this time however.

peace
steve
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Ok, I guess I have to say more than I’d like…

I am being given information about threats and people to “dis-bar”. I am being told about “the elect” and some other information, names, something about suits (not sure if lawsuits or people in suits…).

Again, this is all spiritual intuition. And I don’t know if I can trust it. This doesn’t sound like changing peoples minds, but revealing an underlying corruption. But that is political imo. That isn’t the way Jesus did things (?)
 
thenobes said:
Uncovering something like the truth? As in revealing person’s secret sins in publc? Yes that would be a sin (like detraction). But letting others know the truth of what they are planning to do? No.

With regards to my second point, this point has to do with why Jesus was not political. There already was a law existing (Jewish) and it was perfect. Did it not cover abortion as well? However those who were supposed to teach it did not follow it themselves.

Now if you mean why Jesus did not resist the Roman Empire, I admit, there is no actual information in the NT regarding this aspect of His Life. I’m not sure of the totality of the authority of Rome’s Laws in effect in Judea at this time however.

peace
steve
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Thanks, Steve. Yes, I mean about the authority of Rome. He didn’t come to the aid of the adultress either, but rather revealed the hypocrisy of those that were ready to stone her.

Your first point here… I don’t understand this either. How is revealing a person’s secret sins in public any different than letting others know what they are planning to do?

I’m thinking on that adultress situation… That may be pertinent here… I guess I might be revealing their hypocrisy. Hmmm…
 
What about Joan of Arc? She was led intuitively;spiritually… But she didn’t just try to change people’s minds. She actually led a carnal war. I just don’t know if I can accept that as being from God…
 
WatchfulPilgrim said:
But what did Jesus DO about the injustice around Him?
Click to expand...
Well, he made his own whip and drove the corrupt money-changers out of the temple. Must have been a pretty amazing site - one guy driving out a whole bunch of guys.
 
There are many objectively good things about the Mennonite tradition and I think it never took issue with speaking the truth. If you believe that people in the pro-life movement are doing something objectively evil (based on a careful look at Church teaching), then you should call them out.

There are, however, a lot of pro-lifers who are very consciencious about morality. Being a politically active pro-lifer is not sufficient for salvation.
 
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