Help: Catechism of The Catholic Church - Politically Correct?

[USCatholic]

Will some priest, any religious, anybody help me understand this one.

As I was flipping the pages of our Catechism, I found this, and I quote:
*
841- The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”*

It boggles my mind.

Is the Church playing politics?

I’d rather see the Church keeping it quiet rather than uttering lies, or to put it mildly, “being politically correct.”

We all know, at least those who studied comparative religions, that the Judeo-Christian God, is NOT the same muslim god (if they have one to begin with).

And of course I’m positive that those who wrote this paragraph about Islam, know exactly what I am talking about.

So, any explanation, any help from the members or moderators/administrators of this message board?

By the way, I have other quotes, concerning other subjects, that don’t make sense to me, but I’ll get to this later.

 

[Della]

If you are going to limit responses to priests or religious (who may not be all that knowledgeable in this area, believe it or not) you won’t get many responses on this board.

Also, what god do you think the Muslims worship? I know there was some ancient god worshiped by people in the ME. But, as I understand it, Mohamed preached about the one God, Allah (the only word for God in Arabic). Although his theology is skewed–it’s a heresy of Christianity, in fact.

 

[mrS4ntA]

yes, the fact remains that Islam preaches the One, Supreme Creator. Allah in the Arabic language.

Catholics in Muslim countries whose language has some root in Arabic (like mine) also call God “Allah”.

Also, if the Catechism was politically correctn, it wouldn’t call homosexuality an intrinsic disorder, wouldn’t it?

 

[RSiscoe]

USCatholic:

Will some priest, any religious, anybody help me understand this one.

As I was flipping the pages of our Catechism, I found this, and I quote:

841- The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

It boggles my mind.

Is the Church playing politics?

I’d rather see the Church keeping it quiet rather than uttering lies, or to put it mildly, “being politically correct.”

We all know, at least those who studied comparative religions, that the Judeo-Christian God, is NOT the same muslim god (if they have one to begin with).

And of course I’m positive that those who wrote this paragraph about Islam, know exactly what I am talking about.

So, any explanation, any help from the members or moderators/administrators of this message board?

By the way, I have other quotes, concerning other subjects, that don’t make sense to me, but I’ll get to this later.

Your instincts are correct. The Mulsims, who deny the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus, do not worship the same God as us. They have invented a new God, which does not correspond to reality.

They belong to a false religion which is a violation of the first commandment. Why is it a violation of the first commandment? Because the first commandment says “I am the Lord your God: thou shalt have no strange gods before me”.

If the Muslims truly worshipped the same God as we do, they would not be in violation of that commandment… yet they are. When a person rejects the truth about God, and believes false things about God (as the Muslims do), they do not worship the true God. They worship a different god.

I have some advice for you and anyone else who cares to listen. If you want to learn the undiluted Catholic faith, read ANY Catechism published before the year 1960.

 

[USCatholic]

Della:

If you are going to limit responses to priests or religious (who may not be all that knowledgeable in this area, believe it or not) you won’t get many responses on this board.

Also, what god do you think the Muslims worship? I know there was some ancient god worshiped by people in the ME. But, as I understand it, Mohamed preached about the one God, Allah (the only word for God in Arabic). Although his theology is skewed–it’s a heresy of Christianity, in fact.

I asked a response from anybody, beginning with the religious, thinking that they might know better. But anybody’s comment is welcomed.

OK, I do not want to get into specifics, it’s a long subject and I don’t have the time now for it.

But let me give you the bottom line:

Muhammad turned the Stone Chief-Idol god of his tribe (Quraish) into the Judeo-Christian God. He kept the name “allah”, but changed some of its functions.

In the arabic speaking countries, the arab Christians, or preferably, the Christians who speak Arabic, use the word “Allah” to designate the Judeo-Christian God.

So, for the Christians who speak Arabic, Allah is the TRINITY, they borrowed just the name, but for the Muslims, Allah is ONE, and originated from -as I wrote above- the “greatest” idol in Mecca at that time, namely “Allah” which had 2 daughters, by the way, “Allati”, and “Uzza”, but Muhammad, to associate his new invented faith with the Jews and Christians, abolished the 2 daughters of the stone idol, Allah.

By the way, when you hear or read the Muslims saying or writing “Allahu Akbar” (Allah is GREATER - and not “Allah is great” as the Media incorrectly translate, or as the Muslims translate to make you believe their lies), it goes back to the history of the idiol Allah, being the GREATEST of all the stone idols, worshipped at Mecca.

Allah was the GREATEST of the 360, or some, gods worshipped by the pilgrims who turned around the Kaaba (the cubic building ) (as they do now, by the way , a ritual borrowed by Muhammad from paganism - to tell you that he is just a thief).

Did that make sense to you, do you understand?

I gave it to you in a nutshell. It’s not a perfect, complete, detailed explanation, but you got the point, I hope.

Long, many studies were written about the subject, so be patient with me.

 

[RSiscoe]

This is what the Popes and saints of the Catholic Church have taught about Islam:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434: “Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “The evil [of Islam] was introduced by some Mahometan caicizes (ministers of religion), who came from Mecca in Arabia, where the accursed body of Mahomet is honored with great superstition.”

St. Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims] “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:

“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens * live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all… They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”*

 

[USCatholic]

mrS4ntA:

yes, the fact remains that Islam preaches the One, Supreme Creator. Allah in the Arabic language.

Catholics in Muslim countries whose language has some root in Arabic (like mine) also call God “Allah”.

Also, if the Catechism was politically correctn, it wouldn’t call homosexuality an intrinsic disorder, wouldn’t it?

You picked up 2 subjects.

I wrote already about one, as a response (Allah and the Christian pronunciation of it).

The other is homosexuality.

I will talk about it another time.

But let me tell you, the Catechism, on some issues, is politically correct.

 

[USCatholic]

RSiscoe,

Hey bud, thanks for the quotes.

 

[1ke]

USCatholic:

841- The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God,* mankind’s judge on the last day.”

It boggles my mind.

Is the Church playing politics?

No, the Church is epxressing what the bible also states. Deuteronomy 6:4 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. [a] Footnotes: Deuteronomy 6:4 Or The LORD our God is one LORD; or The LORD is our God, the LORD is one ; or The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

Do the Jews worship a “different God” because they deny the Trinity? No, they worship the God of the OT just as the Muslims do. They fail to recognize that God is THREE in ONE, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ. They err on many points, but they worship the God of Abraham. Therefore, the Catechism is correct.

USCatholic:

I’d rather see the Church keeping it quiet rather than uttering lies, or to put it mildly, “being politically correct.”

Is the Church infallible in faith and morals or is it not? You seem to imply it is not since it is capable of teaching “lies”.

USCatholic:

We all know, at least those who studied comparative religions, that the Judeo-Christian God, is NOT the same muslim god (if they have one to begin with).

We “all” know no such thing. Your opinion does not Church teaching make.

USCatholic:

And of course I’m positive that those who wrote this paragraph about Islam, know exactly what I am talking about.

Ah yes, the old conspiracy theory approach. Glad you have put the Vatican on notice that you are on to them.

 

[Della]

I read Hilaire Belloc’s book about heresies. He listed Islam among them, as a knock-off of both Judaism and Christianity. One of Mohammed’s wives was a Christian, poor thing.

As to Mohamed borrowing from paganism, the same claim can be made of Christianity, which adopted pagan celebration days for some of its own feast days, Christmas being the most well known of these. It doesn’t mean that the Church subscribed to pagan beliefs because of that.

I’m not so sure we can subscribe pagan beliefs to Islam, either, on the grounds that Mohamed borrowed or stole pagan imagery to explain Allah to his converts. Not saying he didn’t have pagan beliefs in mind, just pointing out that we cannot jump to conclusions if we have no more than this to go on. And, of course, I don’t know what else you may know about the topic.

I do know that authors of the Catechism were not attempting to be politically correct. That charge really doesn’t stand up under closer scrutiny. It is based on the opinions of those who don’t agree with what they read in the Catechism, not on fact.

 

[1ke]

RSiscoe:

This is what the Popes and saints of the Catholic Church have taught about Islam:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434: “Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

Yes, it is a sect, a heresy of Christianity, just as Arianism was a sect that errored in their teaching about the One God. Doesn’t mean they don’t worship the One God at all. They do worship the One God, though with erroneous notions about Him. And, yes, it is our duty to catechize and pray for conversion.

The Catechism does not say otherwise nor does it contradict the above quote in any way.

RSiscoe:

St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “The evil [of Islam] was introduced by some Mahometan caicizes (ministers of religion), who came from Mecca in Arabia, where the accursed body of Mahomet is honored with great superstition.”

Some might say Mary is honored with great superstition. Again, your quotation in no way refutes what is written in the Catechism.

RSiscoe:

St. Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims] “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”

Ah ha! Renounce Mohammed… yes, a false teacher-- kick him to the curb witih Arius. Curiously no mention of renouncing their GOD. Hmm… perhaps because all that was required was to correct their errors about the ONE GOD they already worshiped. And again, nothing in your quote refutes the Catechism.

RSiscoe:

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:

“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens * live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet*, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all… They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

This is getting old. Again, this in no way refutes the Catechism. Mohammed was a false teacher and rightly denounced. No mention of God anywhere in this quote.

 

[marvin]

RSiscoe:

Your instincts are correct. The Mulsims, who deny the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus, do not worship the same God as us. They have invented a new God, which does not correspond to reality.

They belong to a false religion which is a violation of the first commandment. Why is it a violation of the first commandment? Because the first commandment says “I am the Lord your God: thou shalt have no strange gods before me”.

If the Muslims truly worshipped the same God as we do, they would not be in violation of that commandment… yet they are. When a person rejects the truth about God, and believes false things about God (as the Muslims do), they do not worship the true God. They worship a different god.

I have some advice for you and anyone else who cares to listen. If you want to learn the undiluted Catholic faith, read ANY Catechism published before the year 1960.

But the Jews deny the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus as well.

 

[1ke]

USCatholic:

As I was flipping the pages of our Catechism, I found this, and I quote

BTW, the quote in question comes from Lumen Gentium from the documents of Vatican II. So, are you attempting to imply that Vatican II, an ecuminical council of the Catholic Church, taught error? Do you deny the doctrine of infallibility?

 

[Bobby_Jim]

USCatholic:

Muhammad turned the Stone Chief-Idol god of his tribe (Quraish) into the Judeo-Christian God. He kept the name “allah”, but changed some of its functions.

I read something similar in a Jack Chick tract once, which by itself makes this claim highly suspicious.

Actually I’ve been hearing it a lot lately, but I have also heard elsewhere that it is not historically accurate.

 

[USCatholic]

Let me put in a very simple english:

You have the greatest stone idol of all, “Allah”, and his 2 stone idol daughters, “Allati” and “Uzza” worshipped by almost all the tribes of the Arabian peninsula, at that time, and especially of the tribe of “Quraish”, in Mecca.

Muhammad destroyed the stone idol “Allah”, after many battles, and lot of bloodshed, against his own tribe who refused to believe in his “prophecy”. (the prophet of peace, right?)

Now, he took its name and said to his followers:

“An angel appeared to me and gave me a new religion. Allah is the only god that you should worship, it is the “greatest” of them all”

And to complete the picture of his new invented cult, he lied to them and said:

“It is also the god of the Christians and the Jews. Don’t worry, his name didn’t change, he is still “Allah”, he has no daughters now, he is the ONE and only greatest god (of all the 360 gods you have), and you will not make a statue of him. I am his last prophet.”

And to prove the validity of his new god, and his own personal greatness among all the biblical prophets, he associated his new cult, with the help of his uncle, the former monk “Buhaira”, to some distorted stories from the Bible, and some “christian” heresies from that time (like those who denied the Resurection of Christ - which Muhammad borrowed and put it in his Quran).

After killing those who disagreed with him, after killing the Jews and the Christians, and chasing all non-Muslims out of the Arabian Peninsula, he invaded his neighbors, killing thousands to spread his “peaceful religion”.

At his death, he was like a king, “the great prophet of Arabia”, ruling by the sword and blood in Arabia and in his colonies, surrounded by his slaves and concubines.

And they call it “religion of peace”!

Now, think about it:

Anyone, you, me, anybody can do the same. Probably, not exactly the same, nowadays. But…

If you want to be powerful, if you want to be rich, if you want to dominate, if you are insane and you think that a god is calling you:

Borrow, from here and there, and make up a new cult or religion and validate it by associating it with a major one, or call it “an extention”.

Does it make it genuine?

Does it make it authentic?

Is it from God, the Trinity?

We had lots of false-prophets throughout the ages, even nowadays.

You got the point?

 

[USCatholic]

1ke:

BTW, the quote in question comes from Lumen Gentium from the documents of Vatican II. So, are you attempting to imply that Vatican II, an ecuminical council of the Catholic Church, taught error? Do you deny the doctrine of infallibility?

I don’t deny anything. I am writing about something that needs to be clarified.

I’m still waiting for an explanation.

Nobody gave me one.

Spare your time and energy criticizing me.

Instead, explain to me what I quoted from the Catechism. That goes to everybody.

 

[1ke]

USCatholic:

I’m still waiting for an explanation.

Nobody gave me one.

Spare your time and energy criticizing me.

Instead, explain to me what I quoted from the Catechism. That goes to everybody.

I already did, in post #9. Others have in their posts. Lumen Gentium, from which the quote comes, explains it. The Catechism explains it.

It is not a question of explaining, but one of receiving.

 

[USCatholic]

1ke:

I already did, in post #9. Others have in their posts. Lumen Gentium, from which the quote comes, explains it. The Catechism explains it.

It is not a question of explaining, but one of receiving.

If you call this “explanation.”

Thank you anyway.

 

[Deus_Solus]

USCatholic:

By the way, when you hear or read the Muslims saying or writing “Allahu Akbar” (Allah is GREATER - and not “Allah is great” as the Media incorrectly translate, or as the Muslims translate to make you believe their lies), it goes back to the history of the idiol Allah, being the GREATEST of all the stone idols, worshipped at Mecca.

Having grown up in a Muslim country, I feel that I should comment on this as it falsely characterizes the Takbeer, of which Allahu Akbar is an extremely shortened version. The full version is:

*Allahu akbarullahu, akbarullahu akbar
la illaha illa Allah,
Allahu akbarullahu, akbar
w’al i’llah h’ilhamd

*God is Greatest, God is Greatest, God is Greatest
There is no god but [the One] God
God is Greatest, God is Greatest
and to Him goes all praise.

Allahu Akbar is actually a short version of *Allahu Akbar min kullishay, *which literally means “God is greater than everything.” The intent of shortening the full phrase to Allahu Akbar, is equivalent to saying “God is greater…” intending to imply that God is greater than anything we could ever imagine.

 

[Christian4life]

Having read the Koran I can tell you that it is certainly NOT the same god they worship!!!

OUR God would NEVER call for Muslims to go to war against innocent Jews and Christians, as “allah” does.

My husband might have become Catholic except he read that little sentiment about how Muslims are on the path to salvation and about had triplet cows
If ALLAH AND GOD ARE THE SAME, WHY DO THEY HATE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS???

Don’t believe me? READ the Koran.

Islam is a HORRIBLE RELIGION.