Help! Catholic would-be drowning in doctrine!

[Mordocai]

If this helps, then I’m glad. If it doesn’t, cast it aside.

I tend to look at dogma and doctrine not so much as “Look at how much there is! How can I differentiate!” but more as “These are the way things are.”
A person can ask any particular question on faith and morals and find the answer in the Church. Example… “Well, WAS Jesus 1 Divine Person or 2 Persons, human and divine?” The Church can give the answer. Is it absolutely necessary for every individual Catholic to know all dogma? In my opinion, no. Holiness and not knowledge is the goal. Knowledge aids holiness and is a means towards it, but not the end in itself.
The Catholic should be able to say, like St. Peter “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

Obedience and submission (these are not negative words!) to the Church is wisdom in that the obedient person understands EXACTLY what you are beginning to understand! That is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to understand it all!

This is why we have the Church.

God doesn’t ask us to understand or know it all. Just as He doesn’t ask us to know Jesus perfectly or everything He taught in order to follow Him.

See?

May God Bless you,
Mordocai

 

[Mordocai]

P.S. it’s not so much having the right beliefs but in fully understanding the belief that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. We don’t believe in the creeds because they make sense. We believe in the creeds and all Catholic teaching because it is Catholic teaching.

Likewise, the followers of Jesus didn’t believe in the real presence because it was plausible. They believed because they knew Who was speaking.

 

[Atemi]

How does a Catholic know what to know? What takes priority in terms of knowing? By which interpretations/instructions are Catholics bound?

I personally still have not seen the infallible list of all infallible doctrines Catholics are bound to believe. This is both while I was a Catholic and now.

It is clearly impossible for any one layperson to know the entirety of the faith, of Catholic dogma, of what is sin and what is error. Is Catholicism ultimately therefore an individual set of beliefs/doctrines picked up (perhaps rather randomly?) by the individual Catholic?

That is exactly what it is.

People like to speak of theories all day long, but we must go with what IS and the reality of the issue here on the ground. Your question, and observation, is accurate and experiential in nature.

It is evident for all those with eyes to see, IMO.

…

 

[LilyM]

I personally still have not seen the infallible list of all infallible doctrines Catholics are bound to believe. This is both while I was a Catholic and now.

That is exactly what it is.

People like to speak of theories all day long, but we must go with what IS and the reality of the issue here on the ground. Your question, and observation, is accurate and experiential in nature.

It is evident for all those with eyes to see, IMO.

…

uh huh I’m sure you’ve been around CAF long enough to have heard of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Between that and the Catechism anyone with a couple of brain cells should be able to have their dogma sorted pretty quick smart.

 

[Atemi]

uh huh I’m sure you’ve been around CAF long enough to have heard of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Between that and the Catechism anyone with a couple of brain cells should be able to have their dogma sorted pretty quick smart.

Is Ott’s book an infallible source or list of all dogmas?

I never heard that one before.

You are aware that there are differing lists, correct?

 

[LilyM]

Is Ott’s book an infallible source or list of all dogmas?

I never heard that one before.

You are aware that there are differing lists, correct?

An infallible list of infallible dogmas? Like the infallible list of infallible scriptures you’ve used to determine the correct contents of your bible? Who compiled that infallible list?

And whose lists differ from each other’s? When were they written, were they all written at the same time and all by Catholics for starters?

 

[nerfherder]

uh huh I’m sure you’ve been around CAF long enough to have heard of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Between that and the Catechism anyone with a couple of brain cells should be able to have their dogma sorted pretty quick smart.

I think the point here is not so much finding all the doctrines etc., which indeed have been compiled to be user friendly, but the fact that just having access to them does not mean individual Christians engage with them - theory different from practice.

I would agree with the point made. Is it not an issue of concordance within the body of the Church?

 

[nerfherder]

An infallible list of infallible dogmas? Like the infallible list of infallible scriptures you’ve used to determine the correct contents of your bible? Who compiled that infallible list?

And whose lists differ from each other’s? When were they written, were they all written at the same time and all by Catholics for starters?

My understanding is that the Catholic Church ‘owns’ the scriptures which they passed on to other denominations. Luther expunged certain books of the Bible which have now been restored as the Apocrypha. So that argument is surely finished?

I am not aware that any protestant denomination (at least in the mainline churches) appropriates the concept of infallibility, and if they did surely Catholics would not expect to author. Or am I missing your point?

 

[nerfherder]

What constitutes the core of belief for the Catholic Church?
See the Nicene Creed – the basis of other Catholic beliefs. Everything else is expansion and refinement.
CCC emphasizes mass, confession/reconciliation, Eucharist, fasting, material support for the Church….They provide at least a bottom-line benchmark for those who don’t know where to start or those who might feel they don’t have to do anything.
There’s a difference between doctrine and theology. The CCC is doctrine, and the Bible is the Word of God: let the Word speak to you directly. Knowing doctrine is important, but only a means to receive the Truth, it is not the Truth itself – Jesus Christ.
The words of doctrine themselves are just imperfect representations, infallible in that they are not wrong, but not perfect in that they don’t completely contain the ineffable mysteries of the faith.

Is it possible that an individual Catholic might not know there is a belief he or she should know as a Catholic?
I think it’s not impossible for a layperson to know all of binding Catholic dogma; there isn’t a whole lot.
Faith isn’t about knowing stuff, faith is about trusting Him.

How does a Catholic know what to know?
Relax! You are trying to learn and comprehend too much too soon.
Take it easy: being “Catholic” means trusting the authority of the Church.
If you have a particular question, seek answers within the authority of the church.
Cut down your study time and increase your praying time. You have already suffered from ‘burn-out’ once.
We learn what laws apply to us as we need to know them. However all of them apply to us all of the time.
Rely on the CCC for the teaching and on your spiritual direction for clarification.
Get hold of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Ludwig Ott.
Slow down and spend some time with the Lord.
What you have to accept is that the Catholic Church has been given authority by Jesus Christ to carry out the Great Commission: preach, baptize, teach.
The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ. We don’t believe in the creeds because they make sense. We believe in the creeds and all Catholic teaching because it is Catholic teaching.
The main thing is to have confidence that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established and that its teachings are true and protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
Is it absolutely necessary for every individual Catholic to know all dogma? In my opinion, no. Holiness and not knowledge is the goal. Knowledge aids holiness and is a means towards it, but not the end in itself. Obedience and submission (these are not negative words!) to the Church is wisdom in that the obedient person understands EXACTLY what you are beginning to understand! That is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to understand it all!

Is Catholicism ultimately therefore an individual set of beliefs/doctrines picked up (perhaps rather randomly?) by the individual Catholic?
Make yourself as a small child, with faith.
Get the two basic commandments in your head and in your heart, the rest will fall into place sooner or later. Utilize what you do know. God will give you the rest of it, but in His time.
Once you have embraced the Authority of the Catholic Church, then everything else falls into place. You accept all the doctrines, even those you haven’t heard yet.
Even as a Catholic many doctrines, rules, laws, etc, etc, will never even directly impact your life. If it does, then you can learn more about it when it happens.

People like to speak of theories, but we must go with what IS and the reality of the issue here on the ground. Your question, and observation [above], is accurate and experiential in nature. [Nerf: This point was made by a non-Catholic, and quite honestly, I find it a persuasive answer to the question. Posters have said that we pick up the doctrine we need as we need it. Each individual has different needs. Therefore, apart from the common rituals identified above, is it possible to say that there truly is a common set of beliefs about Catholic Christian life, faith and church-going actually held by Catholics around the world? In my mind, I postulate that there is not. See further on free choice and informed conscience at bottom.]

**How does Catholicism therefore differ from mainline protestantism – if they both depend on (1) choice/free will (2) an informed conscience and (3) the same Creed? **
What makes them Catholic (apart from their baptism, of course) is their simple affirmation of the authority of the Catholic Church to teach and to bind and to loose. I accept the authority of the Church to make dogma and bind it upon me to accept it.
Pay special attention to the part of the Creed that mentions belief in “one holy, Catholic, and apostolic church”. [Nerf: Please, let me continue to believe that the Creed in the missal reads ‘catholic’, and that this means ‘universal’. This is an important distinction for me.]
…continued 2

 

[nerfherder]

…continued 2

To whom does the Church believe its Teachings apply? (Catholic Christians? All Christians? All faiths? Humanity?)
The Catholic Church does not teach that non-Catholics will necessarily go to Hell.
God doesn’t normally hold us responsible for ignorance unless we deliberately neglect to learn [Nerf: or unless we turn our back on learning. The problem here is that a Hindu who has never heard of Christ is a child of God more than is a moral non-Christian who has made a choice. I understand this is the teaching of the Church – Dogmatic Constitution Vatican II.)]

[My original post, done on Word, had pretty colours to separate individual posters - alas they did not make the conversion to CAF.)

Right! I have tried to summarise what I think I have learned from your generosity. There are common themes for sure, and I take them to heart. I am probably obsessive-compulsive, and although this was supposed to be a leisurely spiritual journey, I am doing the same frenzied dance I have done all my life.

**Themes:

1. • CCC and the Nicene Creed cover principal Catholic Christian beliefs, augmented by Catholic authors like Ott.
   • Give yourself over to the authority of the Church and trust that the Church will not only sustain your spirit and your faith, but continue to enhance Christian dogma – whether you know it or not.
   • Know that the dogma of the Church is binding and applies to all Catholic Christians at all times.
   • Trust the Authority of the Church and its Teachings which are derived from Jesus Christ. As such, they are impeccable, the teachings true and protected from error.
   • Learning the Teachings of the Church is a slow curve: wait for God to provide answers, and listen for them through prayer and contemplation, along with obedience and submission to the Teachings of the Church.
   I am comprehending, and making this summary has helped a great deal. I hope it does justice to your advice.
   
   There are still a number of questions, of course, relating particularly to (1) the authority of the Church; (2) the belief of the individual Catholic Christian; (3) the definition and extent of the ‘Teachings’ of the Church; and (4) where free will and informed conscience go when the Church has (all) the answers.
   
   This post is long enough for now. I have only extricated quotes on Church authority: they may help with regard to doctrine, but do they help with spirituality, belief, faith, and actually being a Christian?
   • Embrace the Authority of the Catholic Church
   • Accept all the doctrines, even those you haven’t heard yet.
   • Obedience and submission to the Church is wisdom
   • Trust the authority of the Church
   • Seek answers within the authority of the church
   • The Catholic Church has been given authority by Jesus Christ
   • We don’t believe in the creeds because they make sense. We believe in the creeds and all Catholic teaching because it is Catholic teaching.
   • The Catholic Church is the Church Christ established and its teachings are true and protected from error
   • [To be Catholic is a] simple affirmation of the authority of the Catholic Church to teach and to bind and to loose.
   • I accept the authority of the Church to make dogma and bind it upon me to accept it.
   I have inordinate problems with the concept of absolute authority, and the perception that (if I get it right), it is possible to sit back and let the Church do it. As long as I am in keeping with the principal rituals of the Church, all is well with God. This seems to be the implication of some of the posts.
   
   And I wonder, if God gave me free will, if I work hard to develop an informed conscience (assuming that one does as a matter of course), if my life is lived in the century of discovery and questing for answers, how can one/I fully ‘embrace the Authority of the Catholic Church’, 'accepting all the doctrines, even those *haven’t heard yet, in ‘obedience and submission’?
   
   What happened to my free will? Or is my free will limited only to turning my back on the Catholic Church, or to lazily ignoring its Teachings so that I can be deemed ‘ignorant’ and therefore not in sin?*

 

[jmcrae]

What happened to my free will? Or is my free will limited only to turning my back on the Catholic Church, or to lazily ignoring its Teachings so that I can be deemed ‘ignorant’ and therefore not in sin?

Pope John Paul II once said something that has always stuck with me - he said (while living under the Communist regime in Poland) “True freedom is the ability to know and to do what is right.”

The Catholic Church gives us both the knowlege of what is right, and the ability and means to do it.

The Catholic Church gives us the information we need (the Catechism, the Scriptures, our teachers, etc.) and the examples to follow (the Saints).

We follow these things freely. (This is what is meant by following our informed conscience.) No church officials are ever going to hide out in your house or at your place of work to catch you being disobedient. When we go to Confession, the priest remains silent until we have finished speaking; we accuse ourselves of our sins - the priest only speaks to give advice, assign a penance (usually nothing too painful) and give us the Absolution.

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

I have inordinate problems with the concept of absolute authority, and the perception that (if I get it right), it is possible to sit back and let the Church do it. As long as I am in keeping with the principal rituals of the Church, all is well with God. This seems to be the implication of some of the posts.

I also have “authority issues”. I have found no reason to doubt the rightful authority of the Church, and if I ever DO find that I simply can’t accept the authority of the Church, I shall cease being a Catholic, by definition and will, and will figure God has other plans for me.

BUT,… this will never happen, because I have decided that it is impossible for the Church to be wrong in the areas in which they must always be correct. This removes the anxiety of my constantly wondering if I’ve made the right decision to be Catholic.

And I wonder, if God gave me free will, if I work hard to develop an informed conscience (assuming that one does as a matter of course), if my life is lived in the century of discovery and questing for answers, how can one/I fully ‘embrace the Authority of the Catholic Church’, 'accepting all the doctrines, even those haven’t heard yet, in ‘obedience and submission’?

You always have free will to make your own choices based on what you know. The question is what you know, as opposed to what you THINK you know, and how determined you are to find out the truth verses “the posed truth”, which comes from partial knowledge, self-deception, or the will of others to have you not know the truth.

What happened to my free will? Or is my free will limited only to turning my back on the Catholic Church, or to lazily ignoring its Teachings so that I can be deemed ‘ignorant’ and therefore not in sin?

Your free will is in full force. You can choose to find a reconciliation of ANY issue (as regards faith and morals) with the Church, or to choose to cease looking for a reconciliation with the Church. The simple fact is that there is ALWAYS a reconciliaton to be found, if you are dedicated to finding it.

On the issue of “laziness”,… If you KNOW that you’re being lazy, then you disqualify yourself from “invincible ignorance” status.

Best to you…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Atemi]

An infallible list of infallible dogmas? Like the infallible list of infallible scriptures you’ve used to determine the correct contents of your bible? Who compiled that infallible list?

Exactly my point, Lily.

Thank you.

 

[Robert_Finch]

Two problems:

I have not got clarity on **what, for a convert, constitutes the core of belief for the Catholic Church **- that is, what will make me a ‘Catholic’. In my studies I have found the following, with regard to the (absolutely vast) …

Greetings nerfherder:

I am a convert since 1990, was in RCIA for 2 years, had 1 spiritual director…

You are right it is vast…Even the cradle Catholic does not know half of what you are writing about here.
I think, that it is not “head” knowledge concerning the RCC, as important as one feels in the heart, that it is HOME.
On my journey, I first found the Liturgy of the Hours, which I still pray daily, is the thing that strengthens me with the Church, as a devotion.
I am inclined to read the Early Fathers, for finding a more sensible approach toward Christianity.
For most questions, the CCC is the best source…

Peace
Robert

 

[dhgray]

Hello fellow Convert:
It is very easy to be overwhelmed with all the doctrine. My gosh, the Church has been around for over 2000 years. Let me help you.

Please follow the simple “Core”:

1. God Loves You
2. He sent his son (Jesus) to live among us.
3. Jesus taught us how to live as Christians
4. All we really have to do is Repent of our sins and believe in the Gospel
5. We are to love our God
6. We are to love our neighbor
7. We are to love our families
8. God has sent the Holy Spirit to live with and within us.
9. Only by opening ourselves to the Gift of the Holy Spirit can we fully experience the love of God.
   10)Only by opening up to the Holy Spirit can we grow in faith.

What we believe:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

As for all the other “Catholic Stuff”, “How do you eat an elephant?” One bite at a time.

God Bless and know you are not alone.
dhg
RCIA class of 1998

 

[LilyM]

Exactly my point, Lily.

Thank you.

So you believe in a fallible canon? Then you necessarily also believe in an errant Bible (since if the Holy Spirit couldn’t infallibly guide the choosing of the books he certainly couldn’t guide those who wrote them either!) and you’re much stupider than I previously gave you credit for.

 

[Atemi]

So you believe in a fallible canon? Then you necessarily also believe in an errant Bible (since if the Holy Spirit couldn’t infallibly guide the choosing of the books he certainly couldn’t guide those who wrote them either!) and you’re much stupider than I previously gave you credit for.

Calling people names in frustration is not to be a Christian trait.

Is it a Catholic trait, or are you off there as well?

 

[LilyM]

Calling people names in frustration is not to be a Christian trait.

Is it a Catholic trait, or are you off there as well?

How about ‘the blind leading the blind’. You can hardly argue against that one being Christian.

And you casting aspersions on the infallibility of the canon (your canon, I may remind you) and the inerrancy of scripture (your scripture as well) is far from Christian itself.

 

[dhgray]

LilyM and Atemi STOP IT!!!

**Your childish spat is only confusing the issue. You two are acting like children. Neither Catholic or Non-Catholics should be acting this way. You are both Christian. **

**Atemi, I’m sorry that you fell away from the Catholic Church, but I’m happy that you found God in the church you now worship in. **

LilyM, I’m glad you are so strong in your beliefs and faith. However, beating someone over the head with the CCC is no way to show Catholic Charity.

May God be praised by all we say and do.

 

[nerfherder]

Pope John Paul II once said something that has always stuck with me - he said (while living under the Communist regime in Poland) “True freedom is the ability to know and to do what is right.”

The Catholic Church gives us both the knowlege of what is right, and the ability and means to do it.

The Catholic Church gives us the information we need (the Catechism, the Scriptures, our teachers, etc.) and the examples to follow (the Saints).

We follow these things freely. (This is what is meant by following our informed conscience.) No church officials are ever going to hide out in your house or at your place of work to catch you being disobedient. When we go to Confession, the priest remains silent until we have finished speaking; we accuse ourselves of our sins - the priest only speaks to give advice, assign a penance (usually nothing too painful) and give us the Absolution.

Thank you. You have written (viz Pope Paul II) “True freedom is the ability to know and to do what is right.”

One has to consider this carefully. Am I truly free - do I have free choice, do I have true freedom - if I anticipate, know, am told, that the Church will tell me all I need to know? Am I strong as a Christian because I am fed? Do I have to fight for my belief? No.

Will I develop the ability to ‘know’, either through study or through experience? I do not think so: I will leave that to those who truly ‘know’ because they are divinely inspired, or because they know what the Magisterium, CCC, etc, say is true.

Do I have true freedom to do what is right? CCC quoted above tells us about mass, Eucharist, baptism, etc., but what does it tell me, not about the correct ritual, not about the things I should not do, but about what I as a Christian must do if I am responsible and consciously in Christ.

I know it is not right to try to balance out a Pope, but the questions must be asked because I presumably have true freedom to do so.