Help choosing between orthodox catholic and lutheran

[Pakesh]

Orthodoxy claims to be Protestantism without the subtractions and Catholicism without the additions.

and the debate continues…

That’s an odd statement. Are you saying that the Orthodox call themselves Protestant??? I have never heard that, and I am sure that statement is going to open a hornet’s nest. The Orthodox are a true Church with the Sacraments and Apostolic Succession-something that is categorically not true for the Protestant Ecclesial Communities.

 

[Shiranui117]

I am going to second the suggestion that you forget about Lutheranism on the grounds that they have no Apostolic Succession and therefore no valid Sacraments.

Although I am Roman Catholic, I will say that you should open your heart up to the workings of the Holy Spirit. I myself was considering Orthodoxy even up to the point where I was confirmed, but now am anchored firmly in Catholicism. No matter which way you go, I feel that you will be pleased with where you end up.

Peace and blessings be with you on your journey.

 

[trophybearer]

Orthodoxy claims to be Protestantism without the subtractions and Catholicism without the additions.

and the debate continues…

No.

The Orthodox Church claims to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ and nothing less.

 

[dnu]

No.

The Orthodox Church claims to be the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ and nothing less.

I was referring to this book I recently bought written by an Orthodox Priest

Orthodoxy: Catholicism without additions, Protestantism without subtractions

stprokopiuspress.com/

Forgive me, the phrase came from one of your own

 

[trophybearer]

I was referring to this book I recently bought written by an Orthodox Priest

Orthodoxy: Catholicism without additions, Protestantism without subtractions

stprokopiuspress.com/

Forgive me, the phrase came from one of your own

Forgive me! Forgive that priest as well for such a horrible title. I’m not sure what point he was trying to make with a title like that but I find it completely inaccurate and utterly distasteful.

 

[dvdjs]

I actually know him from another forum, and I read about the great purge of the Orthodox on this forum over there. Did not this particular sub-forum used to be for all Eastern Christians, and not just ones that submit to the Vatican?

I was posting here at the time of what you trollingly call the "great"purge. I also read the other forum that you allude to. I will tell you that much of what was written there on this subject was a self-serving and emotional, rather than rational, response that gives a false impression of what actually happened. Please don’t consider yourself informed on the basis of things that you have read over there.

 

[Onifir]

Can you all please stop?! You’re kind of upsetting me. If I knew the thread would end up like this, I’d just never post at all. My God, and you call yourselves followers of Jesus. Where is your love?! Come on! Do doctrinal differences really give you the right to act mean? Please, for God’s sake, Stop! You are all making fools of yourself.

 

[Shiranui117]

My sincere apologies on behalf of all who have posted here, Onifir. It seems an ancient feud still continues to run deep, and it can lead us to be uncharitable in our words. You are right to admonish us; please forgive us.

 

[trophybearer]

Can you all please stop?! You’re kind of upsetting me. If I knew the thread would end up like this, I’d just never post at all. My God, and you call yourselves followers of Jesus. Where is your love?! Come on! Do doctrinal differences really give you the right to act mean? Please, for God’s sake, Stop! You are all making fools of yourself.

Some people seem to think they do. I certainly could go for a little more love and a lot less mean spiritedness… as though anyone cares what any of us think. I’m coming to think that as useful as message boards can be they also have the potential to cause immense damage to one’s spiritual and prayer life.

 

[Pakesh]

I was referring to this book I recently bought written by an Orthodox Priest

Orthodoxy: Catholicism without additions, Protestantism without subtractions

stprokopiuspress.com/

Forgive me, the phrase came from one of your own

dnu,
Thanks for clearing that up! It’s odd to me that an Orthodox would describe himself/herself that way:shrug:
God Bless,
Pakesh

 

[Aramis]

dnu,
Thanks for clearing that up! It’s odd to me that an Orthodox would describe himself/herself that way:shrug:
God Bless,
Pakesh

Some Orthodox do see Orthodoxy as having had the reformation around 1066… Many of whom are former protestants.

I don’t understand that belief, but its used as a preaching mode towards protestants, and it works.

I suspect it’s an attitude that Catholicism left Orthodoxy by accretions, and protestants deleted too much. (Ignoring, for the moment, that the EO actually kept more books than the romans did in the canon of the Bible.)

 

[steve_b]

Tell me then, when our churches were united, why were the Ecumenical Councils necessary if this is about appealing to one visible head who has authority over all of Christendom?

To make a council universal in authority, the pope was always needed. Otherwise a council was a local synod not binding on the entire Church.
AL:

Our ecclesiology is truly conciliar; no one man runs everything. The bishops work together when necessary. Why must there be one representative to speak for all of the local churches? Each diocese has one head; anything with two heads is a monster.

Of course bishops are necessary. Popes don’t run everything. But one is supposed to be the head, as Jesus set it up with Peter. That’s not a development, Jesus made one apostle to oversee the entire Church. It doesn’t mean he micromanages everything. It doesn’t mean other bishops don’t have authority. I find it takes longer to unravel all the mischaracterizations about this subject than anything else.
AL:

Even national churches with Patriarchs are just the organizers of bloated regional synods with a fancy head.

is that how the EO really look at your Patriarchs.
AL:

For us, and this is truly the difference, when you are appealing to a local Orthodox church, you appeal to the bishop. He is the “one” person running the show, if you need a single figure to focus on. Other bishops might get involved if someone falls into heresy,

What authority do those other bishops really have over another bishop?

What you’ve been saying seems to me is why Cardinal Kasper, who heads up the ecumenical efforts of the Catholic Church with the EO, said in 2002 about EO in general.

1. "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist,

2. it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox Churches;

3. " there are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow."

http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=17658
AL:

but otherwise, as St. Ignatius says, the WHOLE (Catholic) Church is present when the council of presbyters and deacons are united beneath their bishop.

You’re refering to Ch8 in his letter to **Smyrna **(emphasis mine)

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.”

 

[steve_b]

Can you all please stop?! You’re kind of upsetting me. If I knew the thread would end up like this, I’d just never post at all. My God, and you call yourselves followers of Jesus. Where is your love?! Come on! Do doctrinal differences really give you the right to act mean?

It’s never okay.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Can you all please stop?! You’re kind of upsetting me. If I knew the thread would end up like this, I’d just never post at all. My God, and you call yourselves followers of Jesus. Where is your love?! Come on! Do doctrinal differences really give you the right to act mean? Please, for God’s sake, Stop! You are all making fools of yourself.

I agree with Onifir. We should be seeking Christian unity, not strife. Besides, if you want someone to see your point of view you have to first meet them on points that you agree on rather than focusing on what you do not. As I have stated in a previous post there is much that Catholic-Orthodox agree on historically because we have the same roots.

There is much that is good in Protestantism also. We Catholics have more in common with them than we do differences. If we are only focused on our differences than we become like the one who judges our brother without first taking the log out of our own eyes.

Jesus prayed that we should all be one so that the world would know that the Father sent Him. What message does it send to the world when we are not one? The Catholic Church is in near full communion with the Orthodox. There is very little difference in our beliefs. The Catholic Church is in partial communion with the Protestant denominations. We all share a common belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. My focus is on bringing Christian unity. Because once we have a union of hearts then we will also have a union of minds.

Onifir don’t let the persons bringing strife upset you. They do not speak for their denomination, much less Jesus Christ, but only give their own biases. If we want to help others then we should seek to understand them first and help them in a loving way. And that means being open to the truth. Arguments are seldom one sided where one party is always right. I’m sure the Orthodox have good arguments for their differences as do the Catholics. Let’s not focus on that but rather on what we hold in common. What are our core Christian values? Look and see that they are the same. The only way that we should discuss our differences is to come from the point of view that we are the same.

 

[Contarini]

Forgive me! Forgive that priest as well for such a horrible title. I’m not sure what point he was trying to make with a title like that but I find it completely inaccurate and utterly distasteful.

I think you are misinterpreting the title. The point seems to be that Protestantism has subtracted from the Faith and Catholicism has added to it. He wasn’t trying to say that Orthodoxy was a form of Protestantism. I can see that it was an unwise title, but it shouldn’t be hard to figure out what his point was.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I There is one thing I can say though and that is I have a hard time understanding why the Orthodox and Catholic Church spend time fighting over meaningless theological issues like filioque

You dismiss the issue as “meaningless” from the start, so it’s easy to see why you have a hard time understanding it.

Frankly, I used to think the Orthodox made too much of this issue too, though I wasn’t as dismissive as you are. But I’ve been teaching a class on Orthodoxy this past semester, and I’ve come to understand their position a little better.

What more important issue can there be than who God is? The Orthodox think that the Filioque distorts the very nature of the Trinity. How can you simply dismiss this without trying to understand it?

when 1000s of people are dieing and possibly going to hell every day. Most people in their lives will never even hear of filioque so why should it be such a big issue?

But we hope that they do hear of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How can we as Christians believe that anything is more important than the Trinity? And if the Western view of the Trinity really is an overly rationalistic one which subordinates the Holy Spirit unduly and puts too much stock in an abstract, philosophical approach (this is the claim of Vladimir Lossky), that has practical ramifications for our proclamation of the Gospel.

Can you imagine what a message that would send to the world if the Catholic and Orthodox churches reunited as one as they once were? Would you not want that to happen in your life time?

Indeed. .

Edwin

 

[fisherman_carl]

My own journey includes being a cradle RC. I grew up in the Charismatic movement. Then I went off to university. I didn’t really know what the doctrinal Catholic beliefs were at this time though. I was not raised a traditional Catholic. I often went to Protestant churches to listen to their ‘hip’ teaching and went to the RC Church for the Eucharist.

After some major setbacks in my life and because of falling into various sins, I found myself distant from God. I studied other means of knowing the universe, mainly science. I studied Evolution, Astronomy, Cosmology, physics, etc. It is really a journey to find out the truth and meaning of life, is it not? Although, I felt distant to God I continued to maintain a belief in God despite reading books by Carl Sagan and others criticizing the Church for holding back scientific progress. I did go to Church when I could but found it difficult and only went out of a sense of obligation. I continued to maintain a belief in God because I could not deny the experiences of Him I had growing up. However, I was critical of religious people as my historical view of them was very one-sided, only a scientific critical view.

Eventually, I got some serious health issues. I was in constant pain with no remedy. It seemed the doctors could do nothing for me despite a battery of tests. Meanwhile my brother became a missionary and started going overseas to do missionary work. One day he left some Christian CDs in my car and although I did not like them, I decided to listen to them. It was through those CDs that I felt God speaking to me and I learned that despite all the bad things that I had done in the past God still loved me.

I was still uncertain as to if I was really a Catholic. I had heard some Catholic teaching on Catholic radio and was unfamiliar with them. I was wondering if I was more Protestant in my belief than Catholic. So I began a journey of discovery to find out just what the Catholic Church believed. I thought that I should look and see what the early Church believed and see if that lines up with the Catholic Church.

I’ve been studying Church history and found out that it is quite an amazing history, both good and bad. But it has kept me in the Catholic Church. And I believe the Holy Spirit has led me on a number of occasions. Some things the Lord has confirmed to me are that faith and obedience are not separate. True faith produces obedience. Faith that does not produce obedience is not true faith. Jesus says, ‘I am the vine and you are the branches. A man can not produce fruit unless he remains in me.’

The other thing the Lord confirmed to me was that the doctrine of ‘bible alone’ was not correct. Now I had been raised with the mentality of scripture was all I needed. But the Lord has shown me that some sort of Holy Spirit inspired authority is needed in order to help each believer to understand the scriptures for the sake of unity of belief. Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic? Why do we have so many different denominations of Christianity? Is it not because there is no authority? Each person is free to interpret the bible as they feel the Spirit leading them. But how can the Spirit be leading all of them if they have different interpretations of the bible? That is why I have come to believe in the teaching authority of the Church (also called the Magisterium).

There has to be some sort of governing head to the Church. Something that commands respect. That is where the idea of the Pope comes from. We see in the scripture where it talks about Jesus giving the keys to Peter (Mt 16:18). The keys of the kingdom means teaching authority. I don’t think that this is very widely contested as even famous Protestant theologians agree with what the keys mean. Jesus gave authority to his Church to have teaching authority. And specifically he gave that authority to Peter. I think that Mt 16:18 is there for a reason.

Why Peter? Peter was a leader amongst the apostles. He is mentioned frequently in the gospels. He leads the Church on the preaching of the gospel after Pentecost in the book of Acts. It is hard to dispute his significance in the gospels and in Acts. So I have come to believe in the Chair of St. Peter (Pope) and his authority to teach the Church and settle disputes.

Through reading quotes of the Early Church Fathers I have also come to realize that they also believed in the significance of the Pope, the Chair of St. Peter. They also believed in Apostolic Succession. That really swayed me since I felt the early Church would know best since they are in the time or close to it of the Apostles.

The significance of the Eucharist was also a major concern for me. But I was able to learn confidently that the early Church Fathers also believed in the Eucharist and that is really is the flesh and blood of the Lord. In fact even many Protestant theologians agree that the early Church believed this.

In the end I had to rethink a lot of beliefs that I had previously acquired. I am still learning. Also, I have found the Sacrament of Reconciliation and praying the Rosary to help me dearly in terms of being able to avoid sin that once held me captive. I hadn’t done either of those since I was a teenager. The Lord confirmed to me the Rosary also as the first time I prayed it he answered my prayer. So I guess if I’m going to be wrong I would rather be wrong with the early Church Fathers rather than some modern ‘hip’ pastor.

God Bless

 

[steve_b]

What more important issue can there be than who God is? The Orthodox think that the Filioque distorts the very nature of the Trinity. How can you simply dismiss this without trying to understand it?

Their mischaracterization of Catholic belief, is what distorts.
C:

if the Western view of the Trinity really is an overly rationalistic one which subordinates the Holy Spirit unduly and puts too much stock in an abstract, philosophical approach (this is the claim of Vladimir Lossky), that has practical ramifications for our proclamation of the Gospel.

in the class you’re teaching, what is your assessment of Lossky and this position?

 

[Deacon_JAR]

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t like debating in forums anymore (as the whole Orthodox vs. Catholicism thing has been debated many times before), it usually ends up being un-Christian altogether, and plus I’m supposed to be doing other things right now anyway. But I will say I don’t believe Peter was a make believe leader. I believe he was a true leader. As to what that leadership entails for a Pope to have is what I disagree with Catholics.

May the Peace of our Lord be with you. Sorry you are considering abandoning the forum. I don’t debate in forums; I share my knowledge. If it is accepted or not, it is not my choice. My opinion: Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the WINGS OF A BIRD.

 

[fisherman_carl]

You dismiss the issue as “meaningless” from the start, so it’s easy to see why you have a hard time understanding it.

Frankly, I used to think the Orthodox made too much of this issue too, though I wasn’t as dismissive as you are. But I’ve been teaching a class on Orthodoxy this past semester, and I’ve come to understand their position a little better.

What more important issue can there be than who God is? The Orthodox think that the Filioque distorts the very nature of the Trinity. How can you simply dismiss this without trying to understand it?

I don’t dismiss their point of view but I believe in the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. I am not a theologian. I may not have perfect knowledge of theology but it is not up to me to save myself. Salvation is by grace. I think Christian unity is more important than minor theological distinctions. I do not believe that the average person is saved by having perfect theological knowledge. That sound very gnostic to me anyways. We are saved through the action of Christ on the cross. That is why I can not see how these minor theological distinctions and wording of the creed should have caused such division. It is beyond me. Salvation is by grace. In this life St. Paul says we only know in part. We won’t know fully until we enter heaven.