Help choosing between orthodox catholic and lutheran

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Aramis said:
What Alveus is leaving out is that the majority of the Eastern Orthodox Churches have accepted (and signed off on that) that the filioque is NOT heretical, merely problematic in some languages.
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That’s a bunch of baloney.
 
Well, naturally, I would advise the RCC, but as someone else advised, pray. There is much good to say of our Lutheran and Orthodox brothers and sisters. I truly believe the Catholic Church is home, but really, you need to find the answer for yourself. Pray, pray, pray, and go to where God calls you
 
Onifir said:
the only three bodies in christianity that seem likely to be truth is catholicism orthodoxy and lutheranism. how do i find out wich is true?
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If it will help you, here’s a post I made a while back that should at least cross Lutheranism off your list:*Succession bears with it an entrusting and that ordination passes on the Spirit. (2 Tim 1:13-14, 1 Col 1:24-25, 1 Tim 3:15, et al.) We have shown that the episcopacy is an office, not dying with its occupants, of which the OT ministers were but a shadow.

The early Church recognized this succession coming from the apostles. They recognized that authentic teaching only came from those successors. Irenaeus, writing around 170-180 A.D. smote Gnosticism largely in part due to the reality of Apostolic succession and the truth proceeding only from those who taught with this guarantee:
It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops​
in the Churches, and {to demonstrate} the succession of these men to our own times…hat tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also {by pointing out} the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those {faithful men} who exist everywhere.
The only plausible, reasonable claim to the authentic guarantee of the Spirit through the apostolic-appointed leaders of the Church can be made by either the Catholics or the Orthodox. That’s it. No other church can legitimately make the claim to succession that these two can. Anything less is based on unfamiliarity with Scripture and the early Church. One must do his history homework to see what is there to be seen.​
*Obviously I am Catholic, and my reasons for remaining so include my reconciling the role of the Roman bishop (who is called the Pope today) in Peter’s role in Scripture (Peter was the first bishop of Rome whose successors there are today’s “Pope”).

Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin also determined that the Catholic or Orthodox Churches had to be the one. He chose Catholicism for reasons that included his study of Peter and the role of an earthly Church-head going back through even the Old Testament.

Personally, I don’t think it’s as easy as getting information from a single post on a forum. I’d read some books by both Catholics and Orthodox. :o
 
Hi,
I am going to tell you to pray to the Holy Sprite pray and say come Holy Sprite help me find the truth. Which it did for me i found the Catholic church is the real 2000 year old church that Jesus set up and gave the authority to Peter (Matt. 16:18) until present day. I pray that you see the Catholic church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
 
mardukm said:
It would probably be more advisable for a neophyte to attend a reverent English Ordinary Form Mass first. Who knows what schismatic ideas one may be exposed to at a traditionalist Mass from some parishioners.

Blessings
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That is an ignorant comment. One could say “Who knows what kind of heresy one may be exposed to at Novus Ordo Masses from the parishoners, priest, lay ‘ministers,’ et al.?” This is a ridiculous place to debate this. Let’s spend time praying for the soul of the person who posted this comment, instead.
 
Oh boy, what some contradictory advice!!
You are a true seeker. It’s a wonderful thing to be.
if I may ask, how did you settle on RCC, orthodox and lutheran?
Anyway, if I were you, I would read up on all of them. Read Luther’s writings. See what it is he proposed. Read some good Catholic books, too.
I don’t know any good orthodox books - not that they don’t exist, I just don’t know what they are. Maybe the orthodox on the boards could help you out?
There are real differences among the three faiths (though, orthodox and rcc are certainly much closer than any of the others), I suggest you explore and understand them as best you can.
Also, again, I’m sure one of the orthodox on the board could answer this - I’m not quite sure if there is any thological difference between, say, russian orthodox and greek, for example. That would be another angle you should probably explore.
 
Choose Catholicism! They’re the only Church with the fullness of the Truth (capital T). 👍 The Orthodox Church and the Lutheran Church reject the papacy which is clearly one of the most Biblical doctrines there is. The Orthodox Church has a valid Eucharist and valid other Sacraments but they do not have the papacy. Therefore, they do not have infallibility when it comes to their teaching authority. Also, I think, but I’m not sure, that the Lutherans are sola scriptura and that is a very false and heretical doctrine. I know that Martin Luther is the one who invented Sola Scriptura. Or at least I think he was. And he was the founder of Lutheranism. But yeah, the Lutherans also do not have a valid Eucharist. So go for Catholicism! 👍
 
Holly3278 said:
Choose Catholicism! They’re the only Church with the fullness of the Truth (capital T). 👍 The Orthodox Church and the Lutheran Church reject the papacy which is clearly one of the most Biblical doctrines there is. The Orthodox Church has a valid Eucharist and valid other Sacraments but they do not have the papacy. Therefore, they do not have infallibility when it comes to their teaching authority. Also, I think, but I’m not sure, that the Lutherans are sola scriptura and that is a very false and heretical doctrine. I know that Martin Luther is the one who invented Sola Scriptura. Or at least I think he was. And he was the founder of Lutheranism. But yeah, the Lutherans also do not have a valid Eucharist. So go for Catholicism! 👍
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Sounds like someone just got back from cheerleading practice. 😉 Seriously though, check out an Orthodox forum too. I wouldn’t give Lutheranism another thought but if you’re inclined to check that out too. If you’re asking on a Catholic forum you can already guess what kind of answers you’re going to get. Meet with an Orthodox priest. Meet with a Catholic priest as well if you like. Go to a liturgy or three(or more :D). Read up, study, and most importantly PRAY and trust in God. May God bless you on your journey and lead you to all truth.
 
trophybearer said:
… Seriously though, check out an Orthodox forum too. I wouldn’t give Lutheranism another thought but if you’re inclined to check that out too. If you’re asking on a Catholic forum you can already guess what kind of answers you’re going to get. Meet with an Orthodox priest. Meet with a Catholic priest as well if you like. Go to a liturgy or three(or more :D). Read up, study, and most importantly PRAY and trust in God. May God bless you on your journey and lead you to all truth.
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I second this.
 
trophybearer said:
Sounds like someone just got back from cheerleading practice. 😉 Seriously though, check out an Orthodox forum too. I wouldn’t give Lutheranism another thought but if you’re inclined to check that out too. If you’re asking on a Catholic forum you can already guess what kind of answers you’re going to get. Meet with an Orthodox priest. Meet with a Catholic priest as well if you like. Go to a liturgy or three(or more :D). Read up, study, and most importantly PRAY and trust in God. May God bless you on your journey and lead you to all truth.
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I third this.

(and yes, still Latin Catholic)
 
The way I see it the church that matches the original Church in beliefs and practices is the true Church that has held fast to the traditions and teachings from the Apostles. We have to be honest with ourselves. We can seek historical truth either honestly or dishonestly.

What are the common historical beliefs of these historical early Christians?

"Historical Christian doctrines “held without controversy” prior to the schism of the 11th century:
  1. God the Son is of the same substance and nature as God the Father.
  2. God is a Triune Being (Trinity).
  3. Jesus has a fully human and a fully divine nature in one being
  4. The Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ exists in the Eucharist.
  5. Apostolic Succession of Bishops is essential to the preservation of the Faith.
  6. Scripture and Tradition together are rules of faith.
  7. The Holy Spirit infallibly guides the Church into all truths.
  8. Baptismal Regeneration.
  9. Believers are saved by the grace of God and their obedient faith.
  10. Believers can lose their salvation through sin.
  11. Infant Baptism.
  12. The Bible is comprised of 27 books of the NT and 46 books of OT. (Deuterocanonical Books are part of Scripture).
  13. Male only Priesthood.
  14. Primacy of the Bishop of Rome among Bishops.
  15. Canonization and Veneration of Saints.
  16. The prayers of departed saints are effectual for us.
  17. Confessions of sins to a priest.
  18. Penance should be done for sins committed.
  19. State of most of the departed faithful are in a temporary holding place awaiting their final judgment, although those who have lived a truly holy life on earth can go straight to heaven.
  20. Prayers for the other departed faithful are effectual in helping them grow in grace.
  21. The Seven Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Confession, Communion, Marriage, Holy Orders, and Extreme Unction
  22. High honor and veneration given to the Blessed Ever-Virgin Mary as the Theotokos (the Mother of God–the New Eve).
  23. Liturgical Worship as the “Melody of Theology”.
  24. Images in worship were admitted as a helpful means in worship.
These are not simply Catholic doctrines, but historical Christian doctrines. How do we know this? Because in the 11th century when the Eastern Orthodox Churches split from the Catholics, both sides kept these doctrines! These doctrines were “held without controversy”… Regardless of their other differences, both sides believed, and continue to believe to this day, that all of the above doctrines are part of the deposit of faith given by the apostles to the Church. Therefore, anyone who claims to be connected with historical Christianity would certainly hold to these doctrines also."

source - cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a085.html

About the 7 Sacraments. The Orthodox and Oriental Christian church has 7 sacraments which is quite interesting since the Oriental Church broke away from Catholic Church in the 6th century and the Orthodox broke off in the 11th Century yet they both still maintain 7 sacraments. This only goes to further prove the merit of the 7 sacraments, that it represents historical Christianity.
 
Alveus_Lacuna said:
I don’t know what kind of responses you are expecting to get on a “Catholic” forum and I don’t know the forum rules by heart, so hopefully I am not violating any in saying this, so if so please gently correct me rather than ban me.

We Orthodox know and proclaim that we are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creed, without revision of alteration of the original Christian Church. We believe that what is today known as the Roman Catholic Church was created gradually as being distinct from Holy Orthodoxy, and that the West eventually fell into heresies regarding especially the filioque and their innovative ecclesiology. Of course I cannot defend this ecclesiology on here because many years ago there was a clandestine purging of all of the Orthodox members on here because too many Roman Catholics were converting to Holy Orthodoxy, which sees itself as the real Catholic Church, and the Latin one to be an impostor.

I do not say any of this to be offensive or to violate any forum rules. If I have done so, please forgive me! I’m just trying to give our side o the story to this searching soul, and he asked about Orthodoxy. I agree about attending services at each one and praying, although I obviously think the outcome will be different than others have stated. If you do attend an Orthodox church, try to go to one with English services.
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filioque - a theological difference and an instigator to the schism between Greek Orthodox and RC in AD 1054. The Holy Spirit proceeding form the Father and the Son. Many Orthodox accept the doctrine but object to the added wording in the creed. Some reject the doctrine. Protestants accept the doctrine. The Anglican Church is one for instance. Scripture points to the doctrine.(John 15:26, John 20:22, Acts 2:33, Gal 4:6). If not it’s likely the ‘bible alone’ Christians would have rejected it by now.

What do the early Church Fathers have to say about this issue?
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312frs.asp

Should this be an issue that continues to divide us?
 
Awesome posts, Carl!

The fathers seem to denounce both Orthodox and Lutheranism. Very interesting indeed.
 
Onifir said:
Awesome posts, Carl!

The fathers seem to denounce both Orthodox and Lutheranism. Very interesting indeed.
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Explain to me how the fathers denounce Orthodoxy when we were in communion with the Latin Church at the time. You’re mistaken, brother. No worries, do some reading about the history of the Church. Yes, it’s a long, interesting history and way more complicated than you ever imagined. Take courage! 😉
 
trophybearer said:
Explain to me how the fathers denounce Orthodoxy when we were in communion with the Latin Church at the time. You’re mistaken, brother. No worries, do some reading about the history of the Church. Yes, it’s a long, interesting history and way more complicated than you ever imagined. Take courage! 😉
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Look at the Filioque link
 
Onifir said:
Look at the Filioque link
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I have. I am not convinced. To be fair to this website their arguments are their own. We (Orthodox) have our own arguments which I find more convincing (else why would I be Orthodox?) using the same Church fathers and the ecumenical councils as a reference. Agree or disagree; I know the Roman Catholic arguments for the Filioque and I do not accept them. If you want to know our objections check out an Orthodox forum or reliable source for the Orthodox position.
 
KBernadette said:
Good luck finding that reverent OF Mass. And even if you do there’s no telling what kind of schismatic ideas you might get from the parishoners there. In fact I know of 2 reverent OF Masses in my diocese and know for fact that homosexuality, birth control, and women’s ordination are frequently supported within the congregation and even the Clergy! That and you’ll often hear that there’s no need to convert because we’re all Christians!

In any case, a Parish with the Tabernacle front and center and reverenced anytime it’s approached is a safe bet. It contains God after all.
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Bernedette - Live in LA (As in “MahoneyLand”) and I found a reverently done OF right down the street from where I live (could be my reputation, too). I’m now attending the local Maronite parish which welcomed me the day I stumbled in their door with my walker & made me feel right at home.

That’s something Roman Catholics just don’t do a very good job of. and, That may be one reason why LutheranTeach decided, and decides, to remain a Lutheran.

I was watching a show on EWTN with someone who had become an on fire Catholic as an Adult on the show “Coming Home”. One of the things he mentioned was that, when he was a teenager, In spite of the fact that he was angry, he was really looking for God. So, He walked into A Catholic church on 3 Successive Sundays, but no one talked to him - No one even so much as said “Hello” to him. After his life story, his “Testimony” in Protestant terms, he was brought to the point that he realized that he needed Jesus, and he was brought by friend to Calvary Chapel. It wasn’t until several years later, when he was studying for the ministry and was taking courses on Church History that he began to question the Doctrine he had learned at Calvary Chapel. and, It wasn’t until after he studied the Church Fathers, and re-read the Scriptures through their eyes that he began to be convinced that the Catholic Church was the Church our Lord Jesus Christ founded and that the Catholic Church preserved and taught what Our Lord Jesus Christ taught to his Apostles.

And, The rest was the topic of the show, except for the part where this man had to BEG Roman Catholics to welcome people into their Parishes, to talk to people, esp. people we don’t recognize.

I was born and raised in a Low-Church, Book of Common Prayer sort of parish. Holy Communion came around every 2 Weeks, whether we needed it or not (Sort of like baths in the frontier days). Every Aug., the choir went on vacation, and my father would to trundle us around to a High-Church Anglo-Catholic Parish (the one I attended for the better part of 6 years), a Catholic Mass, a Lutheran/Methodist Service and at least one other Protestant Service. A couple of years, we Included an Orthodox Divine Liturgy in the Mix when we had 5 Sundays in the month… The Protestants were almost always the friendliest and the most welcoming.

For the longest time, the only experiences I had that were even close to that from Catholics were from Catholic Vocations Directors, some Catholic Charismatics and from Fr. Fessio & Fr. Mullady of the St. Ignatius Institute. It was such that, when I came back to the Lord, I just knew I couldn’t deal with a Catholic “Mega-Parish” (and I wasn’t going to Calvary Chapel) - That’s why I went to the small Anglo-Catholic Parish I went to.

It was only when I began to realize I couldn’t stay and spiritually progress that I began to look for another place… I can only thank God the place “up the street” is much better than so many places I’ve heard about on CAF, and even than some of its partner parishes, and that I have the Maronites within a couple of miles…
KBernadette said:
Try try again, I say. If you are truly seeking Christ you will one day be Catholic.
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…But that doesn’t take care of either LutheranTeach or Onifir - For LutheranTeach - Try reading the Church Fathers. Reading the Life of St. Thomas More has reminded me of just how convincing they can be, esp. if you allow yourself to realize that these men weren’t Lutherans, or Anglicans, or Anabaptists or Congregationalists - They were Catholics - Following, preserving, teaching, and, in many cases, dying for, the Sacred Deposit of Faith Delivered to the Apostles by our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ himself. It’s also reminded me just how brilliant St. Thomas More was - He wasn’t the type of mindless sycophant King Henry VIII surrounded himself with after Jane Seymour died in childbirth.

More on St. Thomas More and then Something for Onifir…
Michael
 
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