Help dealing with Protestant (Southern Baptist in particular) arguments

[Shaolen]

Hi I’m currently locked in an argument with my brother who is taking protestant views (despite him being baptized in the Catholic church). He just posted to me this

"The Catholic Church was founded by people. Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence "Christ"ianity or “Christ"ians came about. Notice also, in the Bible, Jesus rarely talked about church. He did however, talk about building His church (which could also be interpreted as a belief system) on Simon Peter. Peter means “rock.” So Peter was basically the foundation (or start) of the “Christian” mentality or religion.”

How do I respond to this? Did Jesus have a physical church when he was with us? (like an actual building or gathering that he started). And is there somewhere in the Bible that I can use to reference?

 

[pablope]

Hi I’m currently locked in an argument with my brother who is taking protestant views (despite him being baptized in the Catholic church). He just posted to me this

"The Catholic Church was founded by people. Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence "Christ"ianity or “Christ"ians came about. Notice also, in the Bible, Jesus rarely talked about church. He did however, talk about building His church (which could also be interpreted as a belief system) on Simon Peter. Peter means “rock.” So Peter was basically the foundation (or start) of the “Christian” mentality or religion.”

How do I respond to this? Did Jesus have a physical church when he was with us? (like an actual building or gathering that he started). And is there somewhere in the Bible that I can use to reference?

This doesn’t sound like Southern Baptist arguments to me. I think this are from an entirely new kind of thinking.

 

[Shaolen]

This doesn’t sound like Southern Baptist arguments to me. I think this are from an entirely new kind of thinking.

Yes I know what you mean. A couple arguments he made several months ago he was looking up tracts for southern Baptists and they were much different than what he’s using right here so it does make me wonder where he got this. But is there anywhere in the Bible that shows Jesus established the church as a physical church or gathering?

 

[WorkingFaith]

Yes I know what you mean. A couple arguments he made several months ago he was looking up tracts for southern Baptists and they were much different than what he’s using right here so it does make me wonder where he got this. But is there anywhere in the Bible that shows Jesus established the church as a physical church or gathering?

I go to a southern baptist church (don’t necessarily believe everything they believe though). I have never heard this argument but to answer your question it is not anywhere in the Bible that Jesus founded a church. He taught in the Jewish temples that was about it for a physical building besides peoples houses. That is how the church started though, they just met in houses with fellow believers to have community, I’m pretty sure. Early on Christianity was called “The Way” you can read about them in Acts. Even though Jesus never put together a physical building his teaches carried on by his disciples did. Once christianity was accepted by the emperor of Rome and became THE religion but this wasn’t for many years. Sounds like your bro is on the cusp of doubting Christianity to me by the way the argument was presented. What souther baptist would say is that the church is a “spiritual church” it is the body of TRUE believers not a building. Also remember I am protestant so this may not be the Catholic teaching. Actually I’m pretty sure its not the Catholic teaching.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I go to a southern baptist church (don’t necessarily believe everything they believe though). I have never heard this argument but to answer your question it is not anywhere in the Bible that Jesus founded a church. He taught in the Jewish temples that was about it for a physical building besides peoples houses. That is how the church started though, they just met in houses with fellow believers to have community, I’m pretty sure. Early on Christianity was called “The Way” you can read about them in Acts. Even though Jesus never put together a physical building his teaches carried on by his disciples did. Once christianity was accepted by the emperor of Rome and became THE religion but this wasn’t for many years. Sounds like your bro is on the cusp of doubting Christianity to me by the way the argument was presented. What souther baptist would say is that the church is a “spiritual church” it is the body of TRUE believers not a building. Also remember I am protestant so this may not be the Catholic teaching. Actually I’m pretty sure its not the Catholic teaching.

Sorry, but part of this is incorrect. Christ quite clearly defined the need for a single, unified Church to spread the Truth, and guide all those seeking God to Him. While the ways / places in which they met have varied over time, there has always been, since Christ spoke the words in Matthew 16:18, a Catholic Church.

This poster gives a couple of good links to help you out with this.

Sean G: Re: How to Prove that the Church was started By Jesus?

To the OP, what does the origin of Judaism have to do with this? No one has -ever- said (well, no one with any sort of knowledge, at all, about Christ) that he did. Your brother’s arguemnt makes no sense. Jesus also gave us more than “an idea” of how to live, he gave clear, detailed instructions in how we are supposed to live in order to please God.

Jesus didn’t talk about building his Church because he was still present with us, there was basically no need. Once he knew the appointed time of his death was coming, he began to prepare the Apostles for the work ahead (i.e., building his Church on Earth). After his death and Resurrection, he further cemented the role of the Apostles in teh development of the Church, how they were to do it, what gifts were given them (to bind and loose, for example), and most importantly, what their responsibilities were.

You brother’s ideals have absolutely no basis with reality or history, I suggest you get him to speak with a priest so that the priest can dispel his falsified notions.

 

[classica87]

Just look at history. The church is very clearly a physical institution; we even have the Apostolic Council in Acts. Also, consider 1 Timothy 3:15:

but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Also, Jesus talks about us being one, even as He and the Father are one. Jesus and the Father were completely on the same page. They held the same doctrines and taught the same unchangeable Truth. Therefore, the “invisible” church held together with the tenuous idea that “we all love Jesus” is, to be blunt, a bunch of phooey.

John 17:7-11 says:

Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

Jesus says he is sending the disciples, that is, the Twelve, into the world as he was sent, and in verses 20 and 21 says:

I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

The Twelve were sent to teach one doctrine and one infallible Truth given to them by Christ himself. God did not want denominations, but one Church preaching one Truth. We know this Church is a visible one through history and through common sense. How would one specific group of people not be recognized as an institution and physical group? How are the disciples expected to bring the Gospel to all nations without order? As businesses enlarge, they create structure to keep them running smoothly; the Church has also done this, to ensure the one Truth is taught. Throughout history, it has maintained that oneness under Peter and his successors and continued to denounce heresy and dissent to prevent fractures in the unity of the Church as best as possible.

The “invisible” church is a lie created by dissenting people to do away with the obvious disunity the Evil One has caused. There is one Church, and one Truth. Jesus founded a Church, not several denominations. He is the Way; faith is not some mountain with different trails we climb up to find God—there is one straight and narrow path God has cut out for us to holiness, and it is from the Church.

 

[WorkingFaith]

Sorry, but part of this is incorrect. Christ quite clearly defined the need for a single, unified Church to spread the Truth, and guide all those seeking God to Him. While the ways / places in which they met have varied over time, there has always been, since Christ spoke the words in Matthew 16:18, a Catholic Church.

This poster gives a couple of good links to help you out with this.

Sean G: Re: How to Prove that the Church was started By Jesus?

To the OP, what does the origin of Judaism have to do with this? No one has -ever- said (well, no one with any sort of knowledge, at all, about Christ) that he did. Your brother’s arguemnt makes no sense. Jesus also gave us more than “an idea” of how to live, he gave clear, detailed instructions in how we are supposed to live in order to please God.

Jesus didn’t talk about building his Church because he was still present with us, there was basically no need. Once he knew the appointed time of his death was coming, he began to prepare the Apostles for the work ahead (i.e., building his Church on Earth). After his death and Resurrection, he further cemented the role of the Apostles in teh development of the Church, how they were to do it, what gifts were given them (to bind and loose, for example), and most importantly, what their responsibilities were.

You brother’s ideals have absolutely no basis with reality or history, I suggest you get him to speak with a priest so that the priest can dispel his falsified notions.

What was I wrong about?

 

[WorkingFaith]

Just look at history. The church is very clearly a physical institution; we even have the Apostolic Council in Acts. Also, consider 1 Timothy 3:15:

Also, Jesus talks about us being one, even as He and the Father are one. Jesus and the Father were completely on the same page. They held the same doctrines and taught the same unchangeable Truth. Therefore, the “invisible” church held together with the tenuous idea that “we all love Jesus” is, to be blunt, a bunch of phooey.

John 17:7-11 says:

Jesus says he is sending the disciples, that is, the Twelve, into the world as he was sent, and in verses 20 and 21 says:

The Twelve were sent to teach one doctrine and one infallible Truth given to them by Christ himself. God did not want denominations, but one Church preaching one Truth. We know this Church is a visible one through history and through common sense. How would one specific group of people not be recognized as an institution and physical group? How are the disciples expected to bring the Gospel to all nations without order? As businesses enlarge, they create structure to keep them running smoothly; the Church has also done this, to ensure the one Truth is taught. Throughout history, it has maintained that oneness under Peter and his successors and continued to denounce heresy and dissent to prevent fractures in the unity of the Church as best as possible.

The “invisible” church is a lie created by dissenting people to do away with the obvious disunity the Evil One has caused. There is one Church, and one Truth. Jesus founded a Church, not several denominations. He is the Way; faith is not some mountain with different trails we climb up to find God—there is one straight and narrow path God has cut out for us to holiness, and it is from the Church.

I think her question though was if he founded a physical building and in His lifetime no he didn’t. Not saying it wasn’t the catholic church just saying he didn’t as far as the Bible goes.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

What was I wrong about?

specifically:

it is not anywhere in the Bible that Jesus founded a church.

I think her question though was if he founded a physical building and in His lifetime no he didn’t. Not saying it wasn’t the catholic church just saying he didn’t as far as the Bible goes.

The physical church is as much it’s people as it is its buildings, so I would argue that Jesus did, indeed, start a physical Church during his time here on Earth.

 

[classica87]

I think her question though was if he founded a physical building and in His lifetime no he didn’t. Not saying it wasn’t the catholic church just saying he didn’t as far as the Bible goes.

Well, I’m confused then. But that’s an easy answer. No, Jesus did not build a physical building, but he knew the disciples would spread the faith. Obviously they would build churches and buildings if they needed to.

 

[InNomineDomini]

"The Catholic Church was founded by people. Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence "Christ"ianity or "Christ"ians came about.

The first things I would seek to establish with this individual is whether or not they confess the deity of Christ, and how they understand the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture. I sense there may be a fundamental problem on these points, and I’d like clarification before proceeding to discussions of a visible, hierarchical Church versus a purely invisible and mystical body of regenerate and reborn souls.

 

[WorkingFaith]

specifically:

The physical church is as much it’s people as it is its buildings, so I would argue that Jesus did, indeed, start a physical Church during his time here on Earth.

When I said founded i was answering her question of a physical church. Your just playing with the words though. Her question was a physical building which he didn’t. Ask the catholic guy that posted after me…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

When I said founded i was answering her question of a physical church. Your just playing with the words though. Her question was a physical building which he didn’t. Ask the catholic guy that posted after me…

He asked about a “Building or Gathering”. While Jesus didn’t build a building, he most certainly started the gathering.

 

[classica87]

We might as well say he did make a physical Church, because that’s what he expected the Twelve to do eventually.

 

[Minnesota1]

I got great idea. Celebrate what you agree and stop the trivial disagreements on on the secondary issues. Have him attend a Catholic Mass and you go to Baptist service. So much in common to be contentious. So celeberate Christ!

 

[WorkingFaith]

He asked about a “Building or Gathering”. While Jesus didn’t build a building, he most certainly started the gathering.

I didn’t see the gathering part so yes he started a gathering but there was no physical building. My bad on not reading that clearly.

Classica you could say that but I was saying that Jesus did not create a building that he called church. Yes he had the complete knowledge that they would be created. Again my bad .

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I didn’t see the gathering part so yes he started a gathering but there was no physical building. My bad on not reading that clearly.

Classica you could say that but I was saying that Jesus did not create a building that he called church. Yes he had the complete knowledge that they would be created. Again my bad .

No worries, I had to double check to make sure that I had read it correctly before I posted that

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I got great idea. Celebrate what you agree and stop the trivial disagreements on on the secondary issues. Have him attend a Catholic Mass and you go to Baptist service. So much in common to be contentious. So celeberate Christ!

These are not “secondary issues.” And the way the OP describes his brother’s lack of logical thinking, it’s not even Baptist! So there is nothing to agree on.

The OP’s brother is a fallen-away Catholic who is being influenced by some other thought process. And a fuzzy one at that.

 

[Steveabrous]

Hi I’m currently locked in an argument with my brother who is taking protestant views (despite him being baptized in the Catholic church). He just posted to me this

"The Catholic Church was founded by people. Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence "Christ"ianity or “Christ"ians came about. Notice also, in the Bible, Jesus rarely talked about church. He did however, talk about building His church (which could also be interpreted as a belief system) on Simon Peter. Peter means “rock.” So Peter was basically the foundation (or start) of the “Christian” mentality or religion.”

How do I respond to this? Did Jesus have a physical church when he was with us? (like an actual building or gathering that he started). And is there somewhere in the Bible that I can use to reference?

Jesus did not build a building and say “Here is our church, lets worship here.”
That came later. He did establish a church, which is founded on the authority and the followers.

His argument seems irrational. It sounds more like an agnostic or even atheistic view. I don’t think the Southern Baptists are your problem. He may be searching for answers having become disillusioned with the Catholic church, that may be why he is reading tracts from other churches.

Is he going to a secular college? If so, is he taking a religion class?
This sounds like the case to me.

 

[KrazyKat]

Sounds like your brother does not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Not a Baptist thought, southern or otherwise . Sounds like he is opening doors too often and reading too many tracts left if he is not home.