Help dealing with Protestant (Southern Baptist in particular) arguments

[Gabriel_of_12]

Define Church;
Romans 10: 14-15** How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? ?And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless THEY ARE SENT?**

Ephesians 4:10 The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12** to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **

Ephesians 1: 22 And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, 11 the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.

Ephesians 3:4 When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, 6 that the Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and copartners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel… 5** what is the plan of the mystery hidden from ages past in God who created all things, 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, **

Acts 20: 28 **Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, 6 in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.

Overseers = Bishops, presbyters = Priests, Deacons are all recorded in scripture, revealing the 2000 year old Catholic Church Magisterium which continues today in the Roman Catholic church.**

Ephesians 4:4 One body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Ephesians 5: 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.… 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 T**his is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. **

The** One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the body of Jesus Christ that bears these four biblical marks of the Church.**

John 17:
16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world.
17 Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.
18 As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world.
19 And** I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.**
20 "I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. **
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one,** that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

Colossians 1: 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell, …23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

There is only one Church in all of recorded history that has existed since the resurrection of Jesus Christ who members can trace their faith intact directly to Peter and the apostles. The Catholic Church.

 

[Shaolen]

Ok now my brother has posted this “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26. Note it said “Christians” hence forth Christianity was born! The word “Catholic” or universal is a word associated by Catholics in order to get everyone to follow their interpretation of the bible instead of people reading it and deciphering it on their own. The hierarchy and people change within that structure but the word in the bible remains the same! It is like a rock! Would you rather work at Walmart for the rest of your life or start your own business? There’s nothing wrong with working at walmart, it’s better than not even having a job (like those without a religion) but the sky is the limit when you run your own business and are free to run it the way that you see fit. This is how I view the Baptist church and others like it. They want YOU to read your bible and understand it for yourself and then bring that interpretation to other “Christians” and discuss it. We all interpret things a little bit differently and they recognize that. That is why I like their way of thinking, their faith, more than the Catholic church."

 

[GaryTaylor]

Ok now my brother has posted this “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26. Note it said “Christians” hence forth Christianity was born! The word “Catholic” or universal is a word associated by Catholics in order to get everyone to follow their interpretation of the bible instead of people reading it and deciphering it on their own. The hierarchy and people change within that structure but the word in the bible remains the same! It is like a rock! Would you rather work at Walmart for the rest of your life or start your own business? There’s nothing wrong with working at walmart, it’s better than not even having a job (like those without a religion) but the sky is the limit when you run your own business and are free to run it the way that you see fit. This is how I view the Baptist church and others like it. They want YOU to read your bible and understand it for yourself and then bring that interpretation to other “Christians” and discuss it. We all interpret things a little bit differently and they recognize that. That is why I like their way of thinking, their faith, more than the Catholic church."

He should read the letters of St Ignatius of Antioch and let me know what Christianity was referred to in 110-AD with “Catholic” which was the Catholic Church. If he has another history of Christianity have him post it.

What Christianity is the Ecumenical Councils? Where is the other history.

Your dividing Christian/Catholic therefore you must have another documented history?

 

[johnnyc176]

I got great idea. Celebrate what you agree and stop the trivial disagreements on on the secondary issues. Have him attend a Catholic Mass and you go to Baptist service. So much in common to be contentious. So celeberate Christ!

The Holy Eucharist is secondary?

 

[classica87]

Ok now my brother has posted this “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26. Note it said “Christians” hence forth Christianity was born! The word “Catholic” or universal is a word associated by Catholics in order to get everyone to follow their interpretation of the bible instead of people reading it and deciphering it on their own. The hierarchy and people change within that structure but the word in the bible remains the same! It is like a rock! Would you rather work at Walmart for the rest of your life or start your own business? There’s nothing wrong with working at walmart, it’s better than not even having a job (like those without a religion) but the sky is the limit when you run your own business and are free to run it the way that you see fit. This is how I view the Baptist church and others like it. They want YOU to read your bible and understand it for yourself and then bring that interpretation to other “Christians” and discuss it. We all interpret things a little bit differently and they recognize that. That is why I like their way of thinking, their faith, more than the Catholic church."

What about the verse in 2 Peter 1:20-21 which states:

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Christ very clearly gave authority to his disciples to teach and pass on the Gospel. Only the Church, by virtue of the authority Christ himself gave it and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which He promised it, can interpret and teach scripture definitively. Anyone claiming otherwise is disrupting the Christian unity Christ desires for His Bride.

If anyone can be so prideful and haughty as to believe they can supersede the divine inspiration and authority of Christ and His Church, they are under the influence of the Evil one. Just look at the Reformation and all the division it has created for exhibit A. I’m sure your brother means well, but he is mistaken.

Ask him how someone who has no theological background or study can be expected to rightly interpret the Bible. Surely he must understand that this is a matter of common sense? Certainly, anyone can interpret the Bible, but only the Church can interpret it correctly, as it is protected by the Holy Spirit. This too, is another common sense thing. Does your brother believe that Jesus, who preached Truth, would leave us without some definitive, sure way of knowing we were correct? And how can your brother, or anyone for that matter, be sure the Holy Spirit is speaking to him, and not his own opinions, desires, or prejudices? This is why we have the Church and the Magesterium.

And there is no difference between Catholic and Christian. Only in post-Reformation times has anyone made that distinction, and they have made it wrongly.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

but the sky is the limit when you run your own business and are free to run it the way that you see fit. This is how I view the Baptist church and others like it. They want YOU to read your bible and understand it for yourself and then bring that interpretation to other “Christians” and discuss it. We all interpret things a little bit differently and they recognize that. That is why I like their way of thinking, their faith, more than the Catholic church."

Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce you to (at least) the 30,001’st person to have this idea and think they know better than God.

Human interpretation is inconstant at best, and often quite delusional, subject to personal bias and desire. The Holy Spirit is none of these things. If your brother really wants to follow God tell him to man up and stop chasing the false idol of his own wants and desires. God lays out the rules, not man. That type of faith is a faith of misrepresentation and personal bias. It’s driven by their desires rather than the Truth. Your broth wants an easy out, a worthless set of ideals that appeals to what he wants rather than what God wants…

I’m going to stop posting now, before I get in trouble >_>

 

[johnnyc176]

This is how I view the Baptist church and others like it. They want YOU to read your bible and understand it for yourself and then bring that interpretation to other “Christians” and discuss it. We all interpret things a little bit differently and they recognize that. That is why I like their way of thinking, their faith, more than the Catholic church."

Ask your brother if he means like this?

patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2013/05/ho-lee-cow-2.html

 

[tiggerbounce3]

I, also, am dealing with my Southern Baptist in-laws, particularly my mother in law (whom I love very much) who lives by a subscription to Prophesy in the News. I don’t know much about it, other than she claims it’s non-demoninational (Protestant) but she calls me with crazy claims about my Church. She recently called me to tell me the Pope has Jesuits running an observatory star gazing the skies in Arizona and is teaching a doctrine that aliens are going to come here from another galaxy with higher intelligence and an alien god which we are supposed to worship as God the father??? I have looked up as much as I can online and have even watched the video from the Prophesy in the News with an interview of the two guys(Tom Horn, Chris Putnam) who wrote this book Exo-Vaticana claiming to have show video access to this observatory and having learned this ‘secret’ information about our Church. PLEASE help me refute these claims. I have not found much online other than refuting the Malachy prophesies about Pope Francis being the so-called last Pope. Is there any information out there debunking these two guys claims in their book? Can anyone help me?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Shaolen;10890455]Ok now my brother has posted this “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26. Note it said “Christians” hence forth Christianity was born! The word “Catholic” or universal is a word associated by Catholics in order to get everyone to follow their interpretation of the bible instead of people reading it and deciphering it on their own.

That is historically incorrect. The infant Church was known as “The Way” which consisted of Jews only. It is from Antioch where the original term Christians and Catholic Church are ever first recorded from historical documents.

The reason “the way” changed to “Catholic Church” = Universal, is because our first Pope Peter was given a vision from heaven to allow all the Gentiles into the Church. Antioch begins to name these first century gentile converts to “the way”, “Christians”, But these new gentile converts do not follow the Jewish customs to fall under the Jewish convert title “the way”, thus Antioch calls them Christians, when both Jew and Gentile become one in faith, in one baptism, in One Lord, Antioch records this new body of believers in the late first century “Catholic”. The Catholic Bishop at the time who writes to the Catholic Church’s during this time is St.Ignatius of Antioch.

Besides the last epistles recorded in the New Testament are originally addressed to the “Catholic Church”.

Peace be with you

 

[classica87]

Ladies and gentlemen, I introduce you to (at least) the 30,001’st person to have this idea and think they know better than God.

Human interpretation is inconstant at best, and often quite delusional, subject to personal bias and desire. The Holy Spirit is none of these things. If your brother really wants to follow God tell him to man up and stop chasing the false idol of his own wants and desires. God lays out the rules, not man. That type of faith is a faith of misrepresentation and personal bias. It’s driven by their desires rather than the Truth. Your broth wants an easy out, a worthless set of ideals that appeals to what he wants rather than what God wants…

I’m going to stop posting now, before I get in trouble >_>

Exactly. I’ve found that most Protestants just want that easy way out. They don’t want to worry about sin and it’s consequences. They want to believe that they are guaranteed Heaven, because that’s a much easier reality to deal with. I used to be Baptist, and I can tell you that Protestantism is very emotionally based. Believing in God is not so much an assent of the intellect and will as it is a “feeling” in your heart. Much of the experience I’ve had views any sort of intellectual understanding of faith as wrong and even evil.

 

[Deconi]

Remember some important things;

There was no church on Earth when Christ was here! HE STARTED THE WORD ‘CHURCH’ in Matt.16!

Where ever He was, that is where ‘The Church’ was. People didn’t remain in their locales and hold payer-meetings or mass type gatherings after he had left to go toward Jerusalem. When He went into synagogues, that’s where ‘The Church’ went; into a house, that’s where ‘The Church’ went, etc etc.

When He ascended, the followers ‘remembered’ the Matt.16 statement, “…upon this Rock I WILL build my church…” and started looking to Peter for ‘unity’ of The Apostles sent at Pentecost to all the world.

Paul was ALREADY writing to churches by 100AD (Corinth, Ephesian, Rome etc) This shows ‘meeting places’ (churches) already established. He didn’t write to one guy for himself and his family.

St Ignatius summed up the ‘re-iteration’’ of the above position to be - “Wherever Christ is, there IS The Catholic Church!” (98 -100AD)

By the time of Constantine as emperor, 400yrsAD, there were ALREADY Chrurch buildings and diocese with Bishops established. We know this because Constantine demanded the Bishops to discuss matters together, although Councils had ALREADY been convened on a locale level and The Canon of Scriptures already decided. ( 200 - 387AD)

The Bible - being a Catholic compilation, makes all who base their ‘congregations’ upon it outside ‘Catholic (name removed by moderator)ut’ makes those congregations rudderless.

Your brother - OP - in finding a ‘limitless interpretation of Holy Writ’ attractive, fails to heed the warnings of ‘The Rock’ within it - as pointed out already by others - and he ignores what is contemporarily evident around us of the consequences of not knowing or paying attention to the above.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Exactly. I’ve found that most Protestants just want that easy way out. They don’t want to worry about sin and it’s consequences. They want to believe that they are guaranteed Heaven, because that’s a much easier reality to deal with. I used to be Baptist, and I can tell you that Protestantism is very emotionally based. Believing in God is not so much an assent of the intellect and will as it is a “feeling” in your heart. Much of the experience I’ve had views any sort of intellectual understanding of faith as wrong and even evil.

That’s been my experience as well. It’s very hard to engage protestants on a logical level, simply because, often, they don’t look at faith logically or rationally. It’s all feeling to them. Feelings are good and all, but if it doesn’t hold p rationally, it’s not worth a whole lot…

 

[classica87]

That’s been my experience as well. It’s very hard to engage protestants on a logical level, simply because, often, they don’t look at faith logically or rationally. It’s all feeling to them. Feelings are good and all, but if it doesn’t hold p rationally, it’s not worth a whole lot…

Well, yes, that’s true, but trying to reason with a Protestant who’s convinced the Catholic Church and everything associated with it is Devil spawn is like having an intellectual debate with a brick wall. We have to pray. Sometimes that’s all we can do. OP, you should post your problem in the Prayer Intentions forum, I think.

 

[pablope]

Ok now my brother has posted this “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” Acts 11:26.

I suggest you also read Acts, but start from Chapter 1 to help you refute your brother.

For starters:

In Acts 1, chapter 1…why did Peter lead the way to find replacement for Judas?

Isn’t this the Church in action?

In acts 2, pentecost…the start of the church. And later, what is Peter preaching for if the Church has not started?

In Chapter 6/7, why was Stephen arrested and martyred?

In Chapter 8… Acts 8
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

Who are these being persecuted? Are these not followers of Christ?

And in Chapter 9, who was Paul wanting to persecute and take prisoners?

9 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

Note it said “Christians” hence forth Christianity was born!

 

[classica87]

To follow up with what pablope was saying, if your brother can concede that Baptists are trying to make him think like a Baptist, ask him why, if he is planning on conforming to a certain way of thinking, he would prefer a relatively new denomination that is just an offshoot of the Catholic Church. I’d remind him that all post-Reformation denominations ultimately get their core faith from Catholicism.

How do Baptists explain the Trinity, or Jesus’ humanity-divinity and other commonly accepted “traditional” beliefs not found explicitly in scripture? They take it for granted from Catholicism.

 

[Adamski]

Hi I’m currently locked in an argument with my brother who is taking protestant views (despite him being baptized in the Catholic church). He just posted to me this

"The Catholic Church was founded by people. Jesus was a Jew, However, he did not start the “Jewish” religion. That existed before him. However, Jesus gave the people he taught a new idea of how to live. After he died, people wanted to use His teachings as a new religious mentality, hence "Christ"ianity or “Christ"ians came about. Notice also, in the Bible, Jesus rarely talked about church. He did however, talk about building His church (which could also be interpreted as a belief system) on Simon Peter. Peter means “rock.” So Peter was basically the foundation (or start) of the “Christian” mentality or religion.”

How do I respond to this? Did Jesus have a physical church when he was with us? (like an actual building or gathering that he started). And is there somewhere in the Bible that I can use to reference?

Tell him you are open to the truth and ask him if he is?
Then tell him since we both agree that salvation and Jesus is the most important thing in our lives we should work together to find the truth.

Then study together if he is truly open he will be catholic

I would focus on a coulple basic items using the bible and early church fathers

Sola fieda
Sola scriptora
The Eucharist
Apostolic succession

Even if he can believe one of the above items he can no longer be Protestant

My wife doesn’t believe in sola scriptora any more after

1. I showed her that there is no age of reason in the bible for baptism when she thought is was 13
2. the word trinity isn’t in the bible

 

[Michael57]

That is historically incorrect. The infant Church was known as “The Way” which consisted of Jews only. It is from Antioch where the original term Christians and Catholic Church are ever first recorded from historical documents.

The reason “the way” changed to “Catholic Church” = Universal, is because our first Pope Peter was given a vision from heaven to allow all the Gentiles into the Church. Antioch begins to name these first century gentile converts to “the way”, “Christians”, But these new gentile converts do not follow the Jewish customs to fall under the Jewish convert title “the way”, thus Antioch calls them Christians, when both Jew and Gentile become one in faith, in one baptism, in One Lord, Antioch records this new body of believers in the late first century “Catholic”. The Catholic Bishop at the time who writes to the Catholic Church’s during this time is St.Ignatius of Antioch.

Besides the last epistles recorded in the New Testament are originally addressed to the “Catholic Church”.

Peace be with you

Well put!

Even by the end of the first century and beginning of the second there was only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church…St. Ignatius testified in his letters about it on the way to his martyrdom, St. Clement of Rome wrote of it in his epistle to the Corinthians, Justin defended it even to his own execution before the prefect of Rome.

God bless!

 

[bzkoss236]

She recently called me to tell me the Pope has Jesuits running an observatory star gazing the skies in Arizona and is teaching a doctrine that aliens are going to come here from another galaxy with higher intelligence and an alien god which we are supposed to worship as God the father??

Wow, seriously? And she believes this garbage? This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. It’s just someone grasping at straws and making stuff up in hope to keep people away from the Catholic Church. It’s just plain silly and not logical at all…

Unless she’s talking about “Pope Michael”, then that I could believe! That guy is a loon.

 

[Shaolen]

I replied with some of the points you guys have given me and he replied with this "I consider myself just “a Christian” and follow the teachings of the Bible. As for going to church, I do not believe it is necessary, nor does the Bible say it is necessary. In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 6:5-6:8,

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbeling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of many their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” This how I’ve prayed ever since I can remember. It’s how I know that I have a TRUE relationship with God that no one, not even an institution as large as the Catholic church, can make me believe otherwise."

 

[Shaolen]

Anyone know how I should address this?