Help dealing with Protestant (Southern Baptist in particular) arguments

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he also says “Yeah but the church is made up of humans! So their interpretation is subject to the same flaws that anyone elses interpretation is. How can you not see that? It’s like you are brainwashed. I’m just telling you what I personally believe based on a lifetime of experiences. I’m not telling you what one group or another believes. I’m telling you what I believe.”
 
Shaolen said:
I replied with some of the points you guys have given me and he replied with this "I consider myself just “a Christian” and follow the teachings of the Bible. As for going to church, I do not believe it is necessary, nor does the Bible say it is necessary. In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 6:5-6:8,

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbeling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of many their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” This how I’ve prayed ever since I can remember. It’s how I know that I have a TRUE relationship with God that no one, not even an institution as large as the Catholic church, can make me believe otherwise."
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It looks like you are making some headway…I hope…for now he has changed his story line once again.

Present this to him and ask him what he thinks:

Matthew 7:21

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Ask him if praying alone is the will of the father only?

Matt 16: 24:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Ask him how has he denied himself and picked up a cross? Is this required also to have a relationship with Jesus?
 
Shaolen said:
he also says “Yeah but the church is made up of humans! So their interpretation is subject to the same flaws that anyone elses interpretation is. How can you not see that? It’s like you are brainwashed. I’m just telling you what I personally believe based on a lifetime of experiences. I’m not telling you what one group or another believes. I’m telling you what I believe.”
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Ask him if humans with flaws also makes up the baptist church he wants to join or has joined?

Is his baptist church then also subject to the same flaws as anyone’s else’s interpretation?

Ask how how he is to know the true and apostolic interpretation from the false one?

Then show him and how does he apply 1john4, v6.

And how can he be sure he is not brainwashed also? How does he know what he believes is true? What is his basis?

If he says Bible…ask him if he knows how the Bible came to be?
 
The example of the apostles establishing communities, putting Bishops and priests and deacons in these communities and the communication which obviously existed between these communities isn’t good enough? Or is that your friend merely has a problem with the term church?
 
Just a minor quibble, but I would take issue with those who say Jesus never started a “church” in the sense of a physical building. Lots of congregations, particularly non-denoms at least start out renting their quarters. Jesus and his disciples either paid rent for the “upper room” where the first Mass took place, or they got its use for free. But it was nevertheless a physical building in which He instituted the most important sacrament of the Church.

I sometimes deal with Southern Baptists in the following ways:
I will take things out of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” and ask them if they do or do not believe those same things. Most of the time, they will say they believe them, because mostly they do. I then ask them to find those beliefs in the doctrinal statement of the Southern Baptist Church. Almost never are they there, because they hold almost no beliefs in common. I then tell them the source. The obvious next question is why do they believe so many “Catholic” things, and why do they think they derived them from anywhere else. Depending on how well one knows the person, one might add that they’re more Catholic than they are Baptist and might want to consider that they might want to make it “official”. That’s a bit shocking, but it does give them food for thought.

Flannery O’Connor who knew her Southern Baptists very well, remarked that it would come as a shock to most Southern fundamentalists to learn that they hold more beliefs in common with the Catholic Church than they do with classic protestantism. And it’s true.
 
Shaolen said:
he also says “Yeah but the church is made up of humans! So their interpretation is subject to the same flaws that anyone elses interpretation is. How can you not see that? It’s like you are brainwashed. I’m just telling you what I personally believe based on a lifetime of experiences. I’m not telling you what one group or another believes. I’m telling you what I believe.”
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The key word in his entire statement is the pronoun I. What you believe? Ask him if he believes what God teaches. This is not about him, but God. It has nothing to do with his personal belief. The Church teaches the one Truth, and that will not change no matter what he thinks.

And the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Her teaching will never be flawed, because Christ will protect Her from error. Individual members may have false or erroneous beliefs, but the Church can never definitively teach error. That is how we know She is right, because Jesus makes sure She won’t be wrong.
 
Shaolen said:
I replied with some of the points you guys have given me and he replied with this "I consider myself just “a Christian” and follow the teachings of the Bible. As for going to church, I do not believe it is necessary, nor does the Bible say it is necessary. In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 6:5-6:8,

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbeling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of many their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” This how I’ve prayed ever since I can remember. It’s how I know that I have a TRUE relationship with God that no one, not even an institution as large as the Catholic church, can make me believe otherwise."
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This has nothing to do with whether we go to church or Mass. This verse talks about “making a big deal” about being holy, like the Pharisees did. Jesus tells his followers not to be like them, and pridefully advertise their “holiness.” There is, Jesus says, no need for us to behave so haughtily because God knows our hearts. He does not reward us for empty show and motion, but for true, real faith. If we are true in our intentions, we should not care how we appear to others in praying to or loving God, only how we appear to God Himself, for it is God who knows our intentions.
 
Shaolen said:
he also says “Yeah but the church is made up of humans! So their interpretation is subject to the same flaws that anyone elses interpretation is. How can you not see that? It’s like you are brainwashed. I’m just telling you what I personally believe based on a lifetime of experiences. I’m not telling you what one group or another believes. I’m telling you what I believe.”
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Brainwashed? It appears your brother does not have the biblical definition and understanding of Church.

As far as interpretations goes, no one can interpret God. The Catholic Church can only interpret what God has revealed to her.

The Church was present when Jesus revealed the scriptures to her. Your brother was not present when God gave the revelations to His Church. Your brother appears to have a disposition of man’s “own freedom” to do what ever he will’s to do and interpret which becomes a doctrine of men, not what God has already revealed and interpreted to His Church, which is a divine revelation handed down to the Church. Here is proof;

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures…44 He said to them; "These are the words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.45 THEN HE OPENED THEIR MINDS TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES…

There was only one Church in Jesus presence when this revelation took place, which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. Ask your brother if his teacher or church community was present when Jesus revealed and opened the Church’s mind to understand the scriptures?

Your brother is in contradiction to his freewill to believe what ever he choses to believe, which is a doctrine of men, not God’s will. The Catholic Church does not excercise such freedoms, she can only interpret the scriptures what God has revealed to her. This is the rock which Jesus built His Church upon, a rock that does not change by every wind of doctrrine come from men.

Reveal to your brother when and how the bible was canonized by the Catholic Church. Reveal to him that the Catholic Church has existed in every age since the resurrection, unchanged. Many heresies, secular kingdoms, emperors, nations have come and gone through out history, but the Catholic Church is the only divine institution which has remained in every age since the resurrection. Even the Jewish temple in Jerusalem suffered destruction never to be rebuilt.

Study the origin of your brother’s founding church and biblical interpretation. It would be my guess his church is not yet 100 years old, and his interpretations have no historical support and no historical personal witness to support his interpetations. Ask him for historical proof of his teachings and church foundation?

peace be with you
 
I give my thanks to everyone who has helped me. I have replied to him with a lot of the points you guys have made and I’m just waiting to see what he comes back with. I’ll keep you guys posted if he replies. Thanks again!
 
Shaolen said:
I give my thanks to everyone who has helped me. I have replied to him with a lot of the points you guys have made and I’m just waiting to see what he comes back with. I’ll keep you guys posted if he replies. Thanks again!
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Wow. Good luck with him. Do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that you can share with him. He really seems to be drifting into the notion that he can determine what is true based upon his personal experiences. That’s not reasonable. I think he needs to begin a more systematic study of what it means to be a Christian. He seems to think that all he needs to do is read the bible and interpret it for himself, and whatever he comes up with is what is “true.” That path leads to the fractured world of protestant Christianity, where “truth” is experiential, and people “shop” for a church that most closely resembles what they “feel” the truth may be.

Free online Catechism of the Catholic Church is here

Peace,
Robert
 
It took my brother a long time to reply this time be he now says this.

“We just look at things differently. I don’t see Christianity as being divided. All Christians stand by the same basic belief that Jesus is the savior of humanity. We just look at the teachings of the bible a little differently. I interpret it figuratively and you interpret it literally. For example it says the world was created in seven days. Well are those human days? Or what exactly is a day to God? A thousand years to man? A million? I think it was figurative speech representing eras of time to us. Whereas to God, yes they were like days. And since I take those words from the bible figuratively, I am able to interpret it’s other teachings the same way. There will always be this differential of interpretation. So long as we have Free Will which was granted to us by God. And do you really attribute the chaos in the world today as being because of people who are Christians but who are not of the Catholic Church? I think it has to do with a lot more than that. What about the Islamic mindset and views on how women should be treated? What about the loss of morals and family values in our society? These are things of which ALL Christians cherish and promote. Perhaps instead of trying to convert me back to Catholicism, why don’t you praise me for being a man of any faith to begin with? I admire the fact that you read the bible and study it through the Catholic teachings. I’m glad you have found Jesus and are in touch with spirituality through the church’s teachings. I just prefer not to consider myself a Catholic. I haven’t gone through all the sacraments and teachings. I have not been married in a Catholic church with approval from the church. After years of attending non-Catholic Christian churches, I feel like I associate with their teachings more and if I do go back to attending one on a regular basis I will start there first. That doesn’t mean I will never attend a Catholic Mass ever again in my life. I’ve been to my nephew and niece’s Baptism’s, both held in a Catholic church. My brother-in-law’s wedding was held in a Catholic church. One of my old colleague’s wedding was also held in a Catholic church. I don’t hate the Catholic Church! I just disagree with it on some things. God gave me the free will to do so.”

He seems to be trying to make a “we’re all equal” move. I’m wondering if he even read all of what I said to him.
 
Shaolen said:
“We just look at things differently. I don’t see Christianity as being divided. All Christians stand by the same basic belief that Jesus is the savior of humanity. We just look at the teachings of the bible a little differently. I interpret it figuratively and you interpret it literally.”
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This is the key. Is it ok to have different interpretations of what scripture says.
According to 2 Peter 3:16, the answer is No.

“*He (Paul) writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
*
Not all interpretations of scripture are equal. And some can lead you to hell.

Scripture was never meant to be the sole guiding force in the Christian life according to 2 Thes 2:15:
  • “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth (tradition) or by letter (scripture).”*
There is only one place that you can get the teachings handed down by the Apostles that are not in scripture. The Catholic church.

I believe you must attack the idea of Sola-scriptura (the bible alone) with him, and the idea that “my interpretation of scripture is just as valid as yours” There can only be one correct interpretation of scripture.
The question is which church will you get that correct interpretation? the one thats only been around a few hundred years? Or the one thats been there from the begining?

I haven’t read the whole thread so if someone else has already pointed this out to you, and you have already presented this to your brother, I apologize.
 
Steveabrous said:
I haven’t read the whole thread so if someone else has already pointed this out to you, and you have already presented this to your brother, I apologize.
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Oh its ok this is great. I thank you so much for your help and will use it. 🙂
 
Shaolen said:
It took my brother a long time to reply this time be he now says this.

“We just look at things differently. I don’t see Christianity as being divided. All Christians stand by the same basic belief that Jesus is the savior of humanity. We just look at the teachings of the bible a little differently. I interpret it figuratively and you interpret it literally. For example it says the world was created in seven days. Well are those human days? Or what exactly is a day to God? A thousand years to man? A million? I think it was figurative speech representing eras of time to us. Whereas to God, yes they were like days. And since I take those words from the bible figuratively, I am able to interpret it’s other teachings the same way. There will always be this differential of interpretation. So long as we have Free Will which was granted to us by God. And do you really attribute the chaos in the world today as being because of people who are Christians but who are not of the Catholic Church? I think it has to do with a lot more than that. What about the Islamic mindset and views on how women should be treated? What about the loss of morals and family values in our society? These are things of which ALL Christians cherish and promote. Perhaps instead of trying to convert me back to Catholicism, why don’t you praise me for being a man of any faith to begin with? I admire the fact that you read the bible and study it through the Catholic teachings. I’m glad you have found Jesus and are in touch with spirituality through the church’s teachings.** I just prefer not to consider myself a Catholic.** I haven’t gone through all the sacraments and teachings. I have not been married in a Catholic church with approval from the church. After years of attending non-Catholic Christian churches, I feel like I associate with their teachings more and if I do go back to attending one on a regular basis I will start there first. That doesn’t mean I will never attend a Catholic Mass ever again in my life. I’ve been to my nephew and niece’s Baptism’s, both held in a Catholic church. My brother-in-law’s wedding was held in a Catholic church. One of my old colleague’s wedding was also held in a Catholic church. I don’t hate the Catholic Church! I just disagree with it on some things. God gave me the free will to do so.”

He seems to be trying to make a “we’re all equal” move. I’m wondering if he even read all of what I said to him.
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He has fallen away from the Truth of the Church. Pray for him. I have heard this type of speech so many times from lapsed Catholics and all I can do is pray that the Holy Spirit will lead them back home. He is a baptized Catholic but he is in apostasy at the moment. Very sad but as he said, we all have free will, don’t we…
 
Shaolen said:
"We just look at things differently. I don’t see Christianity as being divided. All Christians stand by the same basic belief that Jesus is the savior of humanity. We just look at the teachings of the bible a little differently. I interpret it figuratively and you interpret it literally. For example it says the world was created in seven days. Well are those human days? Or what exactly is a day to God? A thousand years to man? A million? I think it was figurative speech representing eras of time to us. Whereas to God, yes they were like days. And since I take those words from the bible figuratively, I am able to interpret it’s other teachings the same way. There will always be this differential of interpretation. So long as we have Free Will which was granted to us by God.

He seems to be trying to make a “we’re all equal” move. I’m wondering if he even read all of what I said to him.
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The bible consists of many different aspects of literature. Such as poems, historical, prophetic, juridical, wisdom, prefigurement, parables, psalms etc. One cannot just read teh whole revelation of God’s Word figuratively. There is an official Catholic teaching from scripture which is used called “typology”, but these always point to a reality, just as the symbolism used from scripture points to a reality. When God speaks directly from His Word we take them to be literal revelations described in spiritual terms describing spiritual realities, not in terms of the world that is grounded in the carnal understanding in the natural. This natural reality understanding returns to the dust, whereby God’s spiritual reality is eternal living.

Your brother is revealing a wisdom of the world and of the natural, which does not come from the Spirit of God.

God does not contradict Himself, nor can can God decieve nor be decieved. It is the Spirit who teaches and reveals Truth to our humanity, not man’s freewill to interpret what man wills to believe on his own accord.

How can the Spirit of Truth reveal a contradiction?

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For His Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.(1Cor.2:10-11)

(1Cor.2:13,14,16) We speak not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. The natural person does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (for example the Eucharist) paranthesis mine.

The apostles have given warning to the Church, since the first century, that we are not to accept another gospel. It appears your brother is not listening or interpreting the scripture here.

1 Timothy 6; 3 **Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. **

11 But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience, and gentleness.
12 Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which **you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses. **

Vs. 12 applies to your baptised brother, when the profession of faith was made in the presence of his parents and God parents before God, and then probably renewed his baptismal promises at an Easter vigil.

Galatians 1: 6 **I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. **

cont’
 
cont’

1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: **every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, **
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

Does your brother still believes that Jesus comes to us in his flesh in the Eucharist?

2 Peter 2: 1 **There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. **
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep.

Those who hold to their own freewill to believe only what they want to believe and not believe in what God has revealed and called us to. Have succummed to a complacency of faith grounded in human wisdom from the world, which is a natural understanding of thiings rejecting or not able to see the eternal spiritual reality of the things of God.

We the Church are always praying for our fallen away brethren. God allows our free will to be excercised, established in the New Covenant to Love and accept His Love freely, but not to deny His revelations of Truth.

Peace be with you
 
Just a little reflection on Christian relativism:

**Luke 9:35 **And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!”

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 7:21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

1 John 2:3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Interpretation is not subjective to the individual person. It is bound to the teachings of Christ, who taught the Apostles, who in turn taught those that came into Christ’s Church.

Why else would we see all these warning about the correct doctrine and teaching:

1 Co 11:2, 2 Th 2:15, 2 Th 3:6, Mt 28:20, Ac 28:30–31, 1 Ti 1:3, 1 Ti 4:6, Ac 2:42, Ro 6:17, Ro 16:17, 1 Ti 4:13, 1 Ti 4:16, 1 Ti 5:17, 2 Ti 3:10–17, 2 Ti 4:1–5, Tt 1:7–9, Tt 2:1,

2 John 9 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting;

Ask your brother if there was a Church at the time of the Apostles and ask your brother what bible did they use :).

Peace.
 
Ok so the argument is now over. I’ll post some of the last actual posts ge made but after this he began to try to change the subject other than the religious points (probably because he himself is realizing he doesn’t really have any more proof to back himself up. I want to thank everyone here who has posted with aid. I’m not the best at explaining my Catholic faith but im learning how to stand my ground and I thank God for this forum! I hope that the points we’ve made to him will sink in one day and bring him back to the one true church of Jesus Christ.

"I only reply to your last post because I don’t have time to sit here and debate the entire Bible with you. I have a wife and child to take care of. You say “God gave you free will but not the authority to interpret it…, " well he didn’t give man the authority to murder people did he? But man does it anyway. Remember this nation was formed because the pilgrims wanted the freedom to practice their own religion. Baptists churches all teach individually. Each one is an individual “Church” not bowing down to any other authority of man. I like that. I like individual freedom. My beliefs go beyond religion. I am a Christian but I’m also an individual human being, a father and a husband. I am not a biblical scholar and I don’t have the time to be. So don’t expect me to argue every little thing you quote from the Bible.” (yet this is where he claims he gets his ideals from). “don’t look at the way I view the catholic church as being based off misunderstandings. I’ve read what you explain them to be based on and I still don’t. What I believe doesn’t agree with you so you call them misunderstandings. With that logic I can easily say that you are misunderstanding my point of view and now we are just going around in circles so you might as well give it up.”

Then I responded to his various points and explained that the Bible doesn’t hold the ideals that he claims it does and how the Catholic church teaches the same doctrines that the early chuch did and that they are one in the same just with the term Catholic as its name and he responded

“That is such a CATHOLIC point of view!! So you are saying that God wants me to be a Caholic?? You need to spend some time in the South. God gave you a heart and a consciousness. Now speak from THEM. Not from what the Catholic doctrine teaches.”

After replying to this his responses dissolved into a desperate way to change subject or blame me for forcing my views on him (which isn’t true because if I post something remotely religious he will bolt in saying everything he doesn’t like about the Catholics and their hierarchy). and then we had a kind of muttled end of discussion.
 
Yeah, you aren’t going to win this one. The Holy Spirit will need to get hold of him and change his heart so his mind will go along…The more you push, the more he will push back. Pray for his return! Many a sheep has strayed, but the Master seeks for each one, and they know His call.
 
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