HELP! Defending Masculinity of God with stupid Liberal Professor!

[Ranklyfrank]

Really? Because the title of the thread and the OP both discuss defending the masculinity of God.

If you agree God is neither masculine nor feminine, why is it prideful to refer to God as “She” but not prideful to refer to God as “He”? I have no problem with anyone’s decision to use “He” to refer to God (that is the pronoun I generally use), but why beat up on others for using both? God is referred to as each in Scripture, by the Church and by Saints, and there is nothing wrong with doing so.

Hallelujah! Sanity raises its shinning head!

Regarding another of your posts, TMC, MB Eddy almost always referred to “Father-Mother God” if she wasn’t using another synonym. So have others. Jesus already had a tradition behind Him and at that time had a rather small audience. E.g. if you post on here and look at the numbers viewing the threads, you might conclude that you not only have a greater number in your audience than Jesus might often have had, but of a greater variety, way father flung, and of a rather different mind set due to some cultural factors.

 

[Waiting]

Great quote about ignoring a fool, but if that fool is trying to influence young, untrained minds, then someone needs to speak up or those young minds will accept whatever the professor says.

 

[JDaniel]

I believe that if you look up “Elohim” it is plural feminine.

RF:

In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). - Wikipedia

God bless,
jd

 

[jonfawkes]

I believe that if you look up “Elohim” it is plural feminine.

I think you mean “Eloah”

• im is plural masculine

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Great quote about ignoring a fool, but if that fool is trying to influence young, untrained minds, then someone needs to speak up or those young minds will accept whatever the professor says.

That is a good point. How then do we deal with those numbers of fools who are clerics and parents of any religion?

 

[Betterave]

I don’t remember Jesus ever repudiating those parts of the Old Testament. As Catholics, we look to the Church for guidance on these things, and the catechism clearly says that God is neither masculine nor feminine. God is the model for both genders, and God is both Father and Mother to us all.

But pride aside, let’s just be honest: those parts of the OT never addressed God as “Mother” (so what is there to repudiate?) and if we look to the Church for guidance we see again that God is never addressed as “Mother”:

239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father.

 

[Betterave]

Jesus referred to God as Father because He was born in a patriarchal society which would have rejected Him outright if He had been a woman or called God “Our Mother”.

Oh really… that’s why? Are you *sure *about that? How sure? What is your certainty based on?

In any case, the next question would be: *Why *was He was born into a patriarchal society (which - allegedly - would have rejected Him outright if He had been a woman or called God “Our Mother”)?

 

[Captain_America]

I am new at posting and being a Catholic, however I do understand that the Church teaches us that God is neither male nor female, but where does it teach us that we can refer* to God as anything but our Father?

Somehow this all reminds me of the controversy surrounding “The DaVinci Code”.

This is nicely put. Personally, I think the use of the male pronoun is more of a poetic expression, to convey some impressions of “fatherliness”.

On a completely different matter, it’s been interesting to me to see how much confusion about Christianity is being generated by non-Christians who haven’t bothered to learn about Christianity. This especially afflicts Catholics (most recently, I again heard the urban legend that some long-ago pope had financial ties to the Italian fishing industry, hence fish for Friday! How dense is this?)

The whole Great Mother thing is a similar work of imagination.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

Jesus referred to God as Father because He was born in a patriarchal society which would have rejected Him outright if He had been a woman or called God “Our Mother”.

Yeah, because it’s clear throughout the Gospels that what Jesus is looking for is acceptance from the people, especially the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[TMC]

But pride aside, let’s just be honest: those parts of the OT never addressed God as “Mother” (so what is there to repudiate?) and if we look to the Church for guidance we see again that God is never addressed as “Mother”:

239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. the language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father.

This seems to be a completely hollow semantic argument. The OP question was how to defend God as masculine. We agree that God we should not define God as masculine because God is neither masculine nor feminine. We apparently (?) now agree that the Church teaches that God is the ideal model for both genders, and that God is both mother and father. So now the disagreement is over whether it is appropriate to refer to God as our Mother or not (although we agree God is Mother to all)? Or are you saying we can refer to God as mother but not address God as “Mother”? If we agree that God is Mother and Father to us all, how could it be inappropriate to address God in that way?

 

[Betterave]

This seems to be a completely hollow semantic argument.

What’s that supposed to mean? Isn’t it a completely meaningless rhetorical assertion?

The OP question was how to defend God as masculine.

No, that is an inaccurate characterization of the OP. Let me quote from the OP:

“Ok, at this PATHETIC school I am at, all if not most of the professor believe in calling God “she” and using he and she interchangeably.”

We agree that God we should not define God as masculine because God is neither masculine nor feminine.

No. God is neither man nor woman. But He is both masculine and feminine (just as men and women are).

We apparently (?) now agree that the Church teaches that God is the ideal model for both genders, and that God is both mother and father. So now the disagreement is over whether it is appropriate to refer to God as our Mother or not (although we agree God is Mother to all)? Or are you saying we can refer to God as mother but not address God as “Mother”? If we agree that God is Mother and Father to us all, how could it be inappropriate to address God in that way?

You’re the one introducing nonsensical semantic distinctions. We can neither *refer to *God as ‘mother,’ nor *address *God as ‘Mother’ - at least not legitimately. God is *not *Mother and Father to us; God is God, and to us he is Father (and specifically our Father), although He “*transcends *human fatherhood and motherhood” (emphasis added).

So again, pride aside, let’s just be honest: the OT never addressed God as “Mother” and if we look to the Church for guidance we see again that God is never addressed as “Mother.”

 

[Betterave]

Ok, so currently I reading through material to be discussed at a class later this week in which the author says that Masculinity conquered “The Great Mother” and replaced it with a masculine God and now we must reclaim feminine spirituality.

What is that supposed to mean? I think you need to explain/understand that before we can effectively discuss rebutting your professor.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

What’s that supposed to mean? Isn’t it a completely meaningless rhetorical assertion?

No, that is an inaccurate characterization of the OP. Let me quote from the OP:

“Ok, at this PATHETIC school I am at, all if not most of the professor believe in calling God “she” and using he and she interchangeably.”

No. God is neither man nor woman. But He is both masculine and feminine (just as men and women are).

You’re the one introducing nonsensical semantic distinctions. We can neither *refer to *God as ‘mother,’ nor *address *God as ‘Mother’ - at least not legitimately. God is *not *Mother and Father to us; God is God, and to us he is Father (and specifically our Father), although He “*transcends *human fatherhood and motherhood” (emphasis added).

So again, pride aside, let’s just be honest: the OT never addressed God as “Mother” and if we look to the Church for guidance we see again that God is never addressed as “Mother.”

Amen

 

[TMC]

What’s that supposed to mean? Isn’t it a completely meaningless rhetorical assertion?

Yeah, I suppose it is.

No, that is an inaccurate characterization of the OP. Let me quote from the OP:

“Ok, at this PATHETIC school I am at, all if not most of the professor believe in calling God “she” and using he and she interchangeably.”

No. God is neither man nor woman. But He is both masculine and feminine (just as men and women are).

You’re the one introducing nonsensical semantic distinctions. We can neither *refer to *God as ‘mother,’ nor *address *God as ‘Mother’ - at least not legitimately. God is *not *Mother and Father to us; God is God, and to us he is Father (and specifically our Father), although He “*transcends *human fatherhood and motherhood” (emphasis added).

So again, pride aside, let’s just be honest: the OT never addressed God as “Mother” and if we look to the Church for guidance we see again that God is never addressed as “Mother.”

The OT refers to God’s feminine qualities and refers to God as a female in a few instances, but the OT never addresses God as Mother (or Father). I am not aware of any “official” Catholic prayers that refer to God as Mother, but the Church does refer to God as our mother, so I can’t see how it can be wrong for us to address God in the feminine.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

The OT refers to God’s feminine qualities and refers to God as a female in a few instances, but the OT never addresses God as Mother (or Father). I am not aware of any “official” Catholic prayers that refer to God as Mother, but the Church does refer to God as our mother, so I can’t see how it can be wrong for us to address God in the feminine.

You keep saying things like this throughout the thread and stuff like; “the Old Testament refer to God with feminine pronouns and feminine imagery, and some Saints have referred to God as our Mother as well as our Father.”

How about some actual passages (not vague references) from the Old Testament, or “Church teaching”, or quotes from “some saints” that refer to God as Mother or ever “She”?

 

[Ranklyfrank]

RF:

In Hebrew the form of the word Elohim, with the ending -im, which normally indicates a masculine plural, however with Elohim the construction is usually grammatically singular, (i.e. it governs a singular verb or adjective) when referring to the Hebrew God, but grammatically plural (i.e. taking a plural verb or adjective) when used of pagan divinities (Psalms 96:5; 97:7). - Wikipedia

God bless,
jd

Thanks, JD and JohnFawkes

 

[TMC]

You keep saying things like this throughout the thread and stuff like; “the Old Testament refer to God with feminine pronouns and feminine imagery, and some Saints have referred to God as our Mother as well as our Father.”

How about some actual passages (not vague references) from the Old Testament, or “Church teaching”, or quotes from “some saints” that refer to God as Mother or ever “She”?

I don’t have time to dig up specific quotes right now, but the entire book of Wisdom refers to God in the feminine, and several Psalms do the same. Isiah uses both feminine and masculine imagery in describing man’s relationship with God. The CCC passage I cited quotes to some of those. If I have some time later tonight I will add in some more specifics. But seems to me that, for Catholics, the bottom line is that the Church teaches in the catechism that God is neither masculine nor feminine, but the ideal model for both, and also teaches that God is both Father and Mother to us.

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

I don’t have time to dig up specific quotes right now, but the entire book of Wisdom refers to God in the feminine, and several Psalms do the same. Isiah uses both feminine and masculine imagery in describing man’s relationship with God. The CCC passage I cited quotes to some of those. If I have some time later tonight I will add in some more specifics. But seems to me that, for Catholics, the bottom line is that the Church teaches in the catechism that God is neither masculine nor feminine, but the ideal model for both, and also teaches that God is both Father and Mother to us.

I asked for specific lines, not vague references. You know things like “Lord, teach us how to pray. And he said to them, when you pray say 'Our Father who art in heaven . . .” and “Father forgive them for they no not what they do”, and “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” and dozens more. I just gave you three off the top of my head. If you can’t give me any references to the bible or “some saints” calling God Mother or “she” then maybe you should stop saying that they are there.

 

[JDaniel]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

This has become an exercise in absurdity. There appears to be little doubt that her profs are anti-male, or, they are men who are condescentious. Which is why they are choosing to promote their absurdity as they are doing. The best way to handle them is to be as absurd as them. I proposed, earlier, a trade-off: mother-god for father-nature. Carry their extreme to its extreme. Talk about how terrible men are. Talk about how prolific men are. Talk about how men are want to proliferate even at the cost of the sanctity of marriage. Make men the most horrible things mother-god ever produced: without let up - until they let up.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus referred to God as Father because He was born in a patriarchal society which would have rejected Him outright if He had been a woman or called God “Our Mother”.

                             Yeah, because it's clear throughout the Gospels that what Jesus is looking for is acceptance from the people, especially the Pharisees and Sadducees.

I’m surprised you don’t realise that Jesus was - and had to be - realistic. He knew full well His mission would be doomed to failure if He didn’t make any allowance for Jewish beliefs, values and customs. Eventually He **was **executed because His teaching was revolutionary. If He had thrown all caution to the winds **right from the start **He wouldn’t have survived as long as He did. As it was He was almost lynched before He even reached Jerusalem…