Help defense of Not By Faith Alone

[deanarrca]

I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:
*>> I took the time to pray and seek God’s wisdom on this… because clearly we are not in agreement when it comes to salvation, faith and the gospel.

This reference, “…through faith—and this is not from yourselves,” - means that the faith to believe in Christ comes from God - genuine saving faith comes from God. You then add James’ words to Paul’s. Whereas Paul emphasizes faith as the ‘root’ of salvation, James emphasizes works as the ‘fruit’ of salvation. Abraham believed God, and it (his faith in God) was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Eph 2:8-9). He demonstrated his righteousness by works (James).

What says the Scripture:

• “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” - Titus 3:5
• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” - 1 Peter 1:3
• “To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved” - Eph 1:6

God saves us apart from works. He saw us in our need, and provided the Savior, Who shed His blood to pay for our sins, died in our place and rose again to confirm it. When God opens a person’s eyes to see, and that one turns to God and trusts Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that one alive (regenerates).

Many are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.

If you wish to take up another issue with me on anything I’ve posted, please feel free to do so by PM. I’ll be happy to give you my number. This is a gravely important issue – but very time consuming and also on other friends’ newsfeed who may not care or have the time to go through all that.

Nonetheless, I pray it will cause anyone to search their own heart about the Scriptures and their own salvation. I’m done & leave you with this from the Word:

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:28-29, 40, 47, 65<<*

 

[juliamajor]

Matthew 25-32-46 This is probably the most powerful statement on sola fide. In this statement Faith is never mentioned. This is the Master himself speaking.
matthew 7:21- Saying I believe Jesus is Lord is not enough.
Quoting snippets of scripture without context is an anathema to me. Always look to context.
That’s just a bit believe me there is a heck of a lot more.
To say you have faith is one thing. To act like you have faith is better.
Just remember to emulate Christ in all things.
He taught, but he acted on those teachings.
it is easy to say “i believe” but remember the Lord reads the heart. He knows what you truly are and truly believe.

 

[Hawkiz]

I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:
*>>

This reference, “…through faith—and this is not from yourselves,” - means that the faith to believe in Christ comes from God - genuine saving faith comes from God. You then add James’ words to Paul’s. Whereas Paul emphasizes faith as the ‘root’ of salvation, James emphasizes works as the ‘fruit’ of salvation. Abraham believed God, and it (his faith in God) was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Eph 2:8-9). He demonstrated his righteousness by works (James).

What says the Scripture:

• “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” - Titus 3:5
• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” - 1 Peter 1:3
• “To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved” - Eph 1:6

God saves us apart from works. He saw us in our need, and provided the Savior, Who shed His blood to pay for our sins, died in our place and rose again to confirm it. When God opens a person’s eyes to see, and that one turns to God and trusts Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that one alive (regenerates).

Many are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.

Nonetheless, I pray it will cause anyone to search their own heart about the Scriptures and their own salvation. I’m done & leave you with this from the Word:

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:28-29, 40, 47, 65<<*

Many of us have had this same discussion…

I would start by taking a look at a web site by John Salza, which is subtitled Scripture Catholic. He has done the work of culling through Scripture and it may help you to formulate a proper response that she might hear. He isn’t perfect, as he holds to some things that might make some ‘modern’ Catholics squirm (geo-centrism), but his work using a ‘sola scriptura’ model is quite good, and I would speculate that Scripture is going to currently be the only thing your friend will listen to…

Matthew 25 is an excellent place to start when speaking against a ‘faith alone’ person. If faith alone is all that matters, why are we judged based on what we have DONE, and not judged on our faith? If faith alone, then God’s judgement doesn’t seem to fit…this entire chapter of Matthew is filled with examples of how both the faithful and the unfaithful are judged. Scripture shows us that there is no difference in HOW God judges the sheep and the goats…both are judged upon what they have done. In the parable of the ten virgins, we see that all ten had faith: they all knew and believed that a) there is a Master, and b) He is coming, and c) they all want to celebrate with Him. All ten are ‘believers’ in every sense. But not all ten acted out their belief properly. Only those five who persevered until the end (see how that fits so perfectly with all that the Church teaches about faith and works acting together in love?) were invited into the feast when the Master came. The other five are cast out away from Him.

We find parables such as these to be fairly clear that the teaching is about not just believing, but believing AND ‘proving it’ by how we live our lives. And, how both faith and works relate to eternity.

I would also strive to seek out things that you believe in common. It doesn’t ALL have to be about how you are different.

However, we should all be reminded that we are to take the whole of Scripture for use…not just verse pluck where it suits what we want to believe. As Catholics, we do exactly this…we do not look to only a handful of verses, but to all of them.

It is almost laughable that she chose some of the verses she did. The Titus 3:5 verse is most assuredly referring to Baptism, which she would likely call a ‘work’. Eph. 2:8-9 is an oft quoted verse by those who want to adhere to ‘faith alone’…and if the word stopped there, they might be right…but it doesn’t. We Catholics continue reading on to verse 10, which tells us that we are created by God to DO GOOD WORKS. Works are our purpose.

Even ‘having faith’ is actually a ‘work’. Neurons fire. In free will as God created us, we perform the decision to follow Christ or not. There is really no escaping ‘works’…works, either good or bad, are part of what defines us as humans… And Jesus Himself tells us that our works are how we will be judged by Him.

I have more, but would prefer to see if this is what you were looking for before I go on (and on, and on - I tend to ramble).

Peace in Christ

 

[rfournier103]

**Revelation 22:12 ~ “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.” **

.

 

[PJM]

=deanarrca;12295643]I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:
*>> I took the time to pray and seek God’s wisdom on this… because clearly we are not in agreement when it comes to salvation, faith and the gospel.

This reference, “…through faith—and this is not from yourselves,” - means that the faith to believe in Christ comes from God - genuine saving faith comes from God. You then add James’ words to Paul’s. Whereas Paul emphasizes faith as the ‘root’ of salvation, James emphasizes works as the ‘fruit’ of salvation. Abraham believed God, and it (his faith in God) was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Eph 2:8-9). He demonstrated his righteousness by works (James).

What says the Scripture:

• “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” - Titus 3:5
• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” - 1 Peter 1:3
• “To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved” - Eph 1:6

God saves us apart from works. He saw us in our need, and provided the Savior, Who shed His blood to pay for our sins, died in our place and rose again to confirm it. When God opens a person’s eyes to see, and that one turns to God and trusts Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that one alive (regenerates).

Many are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.

If you wish to take up another issue with me on anything I’ve posted, please feel free to do so by PM. I’ll be happy to give you my number. This is a gravely important issue – but very time consuming and also on other friends’ newsfeed who may not care or have the time to go through all that.

Nonetheless, I pray it will cause anyone to search their own heart about the Scriptures and their own salvation. I’m done & leave you with this from the Word:

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:28-29, 40, 47, 65<<*

My DEAR friend,

the ONLY “alone” that can rightly be applied to salvation is “Christ/God”; NOT faith, Not Grace or anything else.

Salvation is a Journey with many steps and conditions:
For example:

John 3: 5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 19:17" Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

John 20:19-23
"Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. ***Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. ***

The Keys to Heaven were given to ONLY Peter and His Successors.

God Bless,

 

[zz912]

I’d start by asking her some questions.

1. In virtually every instance in Scripture, what are judged upon? Our faith, or our works?
2. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to feed the poor?
3. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to tend to the sick?
4. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to forgive others?
5. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to follow Christ’s commands?

There are many more like this. She may attempt to squirm out of this by saying that “true” Christians would naturally do these things as fruit of your salvation, and if you refuse to do them, well, you weren’t “really” saved anyway. But that’s NOT what Scripture says. MOST of the NT was written to those who were ALREADY Christian, and instructed them on what they must do to be saved. Don’t let her get away with claiming that. And in many places in Scripture, the author speaks warnings to those already Christian to not fall away from the faith and lose their salvation.

 

[JRKH]

First of all let me commend you on your patience.

As to the matters at hand, I would suggest being careful about tossing Scripture back and forth…as already pointed out, taking things out of context is problematic…and besides what you are really trying to overcome is his predisposition. He has been taught that Catholics are not Christian. He has been taught that this scripture means this or that.

So our task is to begin to delve and to challenge so that you BOTH come away with a better understanding.

Primarily - These conversations are less about “Alone” than they are about “Primarily”.
Your friend will surely agree that works are a necessary part of a living and saving faith.
The Catholic Church agrees. So - Where is the argument to be had?
St Paul also says that if one has faith without Love - He is nothing. So it seems that Love (agape) is also a necessary component.
Something that I’m sure your friend would not find argument with…and again…the Catholic Church agrees. So where is the argument???

The argument - or more correctly the disconnect in thinking - really revolves around what your friend thinks the Church bases salvation on. I will wager if you ask what he believes the basis of Catholic teaching on salvation is - he will say “works”. (Works based salvation). This of course is blatantly untrue. The basis of our teaching on Salvation is faith in Christ. But your friend does not understand this.

So - the bottom line in this is to be very patient and to disassemble his misconceptions of the Church’s teachings on salvation.
Ask him what it means to be Christian…at it’s core what is necessary?
Does he respond with anything that Catholics do not embrace?
Ask him what the term “faith” means to him?
It’s easy to toss the word out…it’s tougher to try to define…for example, we know that not all those who cry “Lord Lord” will enter the Kingdom. We know that the demons “believe” but that will not save them. So what separates " belief" from "faith…

Asking such questions - and replying to them with Church teaching will eventually carry you to much more productive conversation.

But it will take time.

Peace
James

 

[rubaptised]

1 Corinthians 1:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[a]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?

Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

as this is a never ending – discussion – if you define christian as-- the anointed one with the anointing – this Holy Spirit anointing has – direct evidence–

Mark 16:16-20New International Version (NIV)

16

1… Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

2…but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

3…17 And these signs will accompany those who believe:

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

1 Corinthians 2:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom

but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[a]

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness,

and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Hebrews 6:1-5New International Version (NIV)

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity

, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites,** the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.**

 

[spina1953]

One I think needs to look at the history of the times to get the meaning of what was going on with Paul and James. Both were addressing different audiences for different situations for different problems. For Paul; everywhere he was preaching and teaching converted Pharisees were saying and teaching that converted Gentiles had to be circumcised and follow the ritual requirements of the law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul was refuting this saying that it is not the works of the law of Moses that one is saved but by the faith in Christ Jesus. This did not mean that one need not do any good works but only that converted Gentiles did not have any need to follow Jewish ritual requirements of the law of Moses in order to be saved.

For James, converted Pharisees in Jerusalem were teaching and preaching that in order to be saved nothing more than faith in God was required and one did not have to do any good works, which James was refuting saying that faith without good works was dead faith, that faith takes concrete action.

The council of Jerusalem, made clear that converted Gentiles did not have to follow and preform the ritual requirements of the law of Moses in order to be saved; which Paul was stressing and Peter decided in Paul’s favor.

   James stressed that faith is action in that when one does good works in faith allowing to others see and give glory to God. Those say nothing more is needed but only faith in God without doing good works is a dead faith since not doing anything for the glory of God that others might see is worthless.

Another way of understanding James is when one has faith one opens oneself to become an instrument, thereby God does His work through the one who has faith. if one says they have faith but do nothing, that is no good works, how then does God able to do His work though a person who has says he has faith but does nothing with it?

Now back to Paul. Paul is not saying that one does not need to do any works, only that doing good works under the law of Moses was done as a requirement or duty and not done out of love. Jews of the time believed that if they had a good life had many things that made their life better, riches, etc. was a blessing, which was the cause of their following the law of Moses. Most Jews of the time were not able to follow the law of Moses very well and when they did it was out of duty, not out of love. This is what Paul was referring to in that was not going to save anyone by following the Law of Moses as then one would be judged by the law and not by Christ.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:
>> I took the time to pray and seek God’s wisdom on this… because clearly we are not in agreement when it comes to salvation, faith and the gospel.

Okay…first off, this person’s lack of Christian charity is the pits.Their tone is rude to say the least and from the last lines…I’d say they are bailing on you.

To point here though: Why would we, since the Word of God disagrees with the system of salvation that they have errantly set forth as the Christian standard, I can offer you this short blog article which you may feel free to copy and use if it will help.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?*

This reference, “…through faith—and this is not from yourselves,” - means that the faith to believe in Christ comes from God - genuine saving faith comes from God. You then add James’ words to Paul’s. Whereas Paul emphasizes faith as the ‘root’ of salvation, James emphasizes works as the ‘fruit’ of salvation. Abraham believed God, and it (his faith in God) was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Eph 2:8-9). He demonstrated his righteousness by works (James).

Ask them just exactly what fruits of that faith they believe they must see and how we Catholics do not do so? What you’ll get back will not conform to scripture.

What says the Scripture:

• “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” - Titus 3:5
• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” - 1 Peter 1:3
• “To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved” - Eph 1:6

*Again, this is just cherry picking and out of context. You can reply with the following which shows the scriptural basis for our salvation. How Is A Catholic Saved? *

God saves us apart from works. He saw us in our need, and provided the Savior, Who shed His blood to pay for our sins, died in our place and rose again to confirm it. When God opens a person’s eyes to see, and that one turns to God and trusts Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that one alive (regenerates).

*This is just preaching. It will be confusing to you because it is pretty much what we Catholics believe. You might ask them to supply you with any authentic and authoritative Catholic sources that say anything different. I can almost guarantee that they either cannot or will not be able to because none such exists.
*

Many are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

Polemics and insult. Just ignore this because you could turn it around and apply it to them more legitimately.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.

I remember one time when I was first outside the church some silly woman had the nerve to corner my dear Catholic mother when she came to pick me up from their Bible study and making a similar statement to me about my Mom being “so lost” as my Mom responded to her “witnessing”. IIRC, I never went back there.

If you wish to take up another issue with me on anything I’ve posted, please feel free to do so by PM. I’ll be happy to give you my number. This is a gravely important issue – but very time consuming and also on other friends’ newsfeed who may not care or have the time to go through all that.

*Ruin their day by sending them a copy and paste of this CA tract which lays out the call to conversion beautifully. God’s Love for You(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

Nonetheless, I pray it will cause anyone to search their own heart about the Scriptures and their own salvation. I’m done & leave you with this from the Word:

*See…here they’ve dismissed you. They don’t really care about your soul, or they wouldn’t have come off that way. This is what I used to call “a gunslinger witness” because they don’t really care about the person or they’d get more personally invested in you. They are just feeding their ego (at your expense) and putting another “notch” in their Bible where they did their duty and “witnessed” to a poor dumb, blinded Catholic. (Me? I’d ignore them, dust off my sandals, and step off with an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be on my lips for them. If you’re feeling like more, I’d perhaps pray a Divine Mercy Chaplet for them.)
*

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:28-29, 40, 47, 65<<

*This is actually kind of ironic that they cherry pick John 6 where we see the very long and concise Bread of Life discourse. They skipped all around our Lord saying that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you. Look at John 6:54 and 55!
***[54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. ***

 

[JonNC]

I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:

*any are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.*

As a Lutheran, I find this comment presumptuous at best. No Christian holds the power to say who is or is not saved.
I take it you are Baptized, and scripture says, “Baptism now saves you”. Knowing nothing else about you or your life, that statement seems rather firm. From there, hearing His word, receiving the sacraments, growing in grace, then fulfilling His call that love our neighbors as ourselves, your salvation is in God’s hands, not your friend’s.

Jon

 

[Christy_Beth]

James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

In fact, the better part of the second chapter of James is on this subject. I’m surprised no one thought to bring this up before.

 

[fhansen]

I am in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian who doesn’t accept me as Christian (Which I am finding it very hard not to take offense to but keeping my composure) Explained that I agree with Grace Alone but Not Faith alone and of course shared James 2:14-26
She has responded back that James and Paul were talking about different kinds of faith.
Need help with a defense and response back.
Below here is what she wrote to me:
*>> I took the time to pray and seek God’s wisdom on this… because clearly we are not in agreement when it comes to salvation, faith and the gospel.

This reference, “…through faith—and this is not from yourselves,” - means that the faith to believe in Christ comes from God - genuine saving faith comes from God. You then add James’ words to Paul’s. Whereas Paul emphasizes faith as the ‘root’ of salvation, James emphasizes works as the ‘fruit’ of salvation. Abraham believed God, and it (his faith in God) was counted to him for righteousness (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3; Eph 2:8-9). He demonstrated his righteousness by works (James).

What says the Scripture:

• “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” - Titus 3:5
• “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” - 1 Peter 1:3
• “To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved” - Eph 1:6

God saves us apart from works. He saw us in our need, and provided the Savior, Who shed His blood to pay for our sins, died in our place and rose again to confirm it. When God opens a person’s eyes to see, and that one turns to God and trusts Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that one alive (regenerates).

Many are blinded at the one point of deliverance - the gospel.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” - 2 Cor 4:3-4.

I pray The Lord to reveal His Truth to you by which you would be saved.

If you wish to take up another issue with me on anything I’ve posted, please feel free to do so by PM. I’ll be happy to give you my number. This is a gravely important issue – but very time consuming and also on other friends’ newsfeed who may not care or have the time to go through all that.

Nonetheless, I pray it will cause anyone to search their own heart about the Scriptures and their own salvation. I’m done & leave you with this from the Word:

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” John 6:28-29, 40, 47, 65<<*

The Council of Trent affirmed that faith is the root of salvation, because it’s the foundation, the beginning, of our justification. But that means it doesn’t end there. Faith must lead on to *love *, which is what our justice consists of, and this is why the greatest commandments are what they are. And as Augustine said, "Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail." This is where the conflict comes from. Love necessarily produces works-acts of love such as those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46, types of works we’ll be judged by, whereas faith doesn’t necessarily do so. “The only thing that counts is faith working through love”. Gal 5:6

 

[JRKH]

The Council of Trent affirmed that faith is the root of salvation, because it’s the foundation, the beginning, of our justification. But that means it doesn’t end there. Faith must lead on to *love *, which is what our justice consists of, and this is why the greatest commandments are what they are. And as Augustine said, "Without love faith can indeed exist, but can be of no avail." This is where the conflict comes from. Love necessarily produces works-acts of love such as those mentioned in Matt 25:31-46, types of works we’ll be judged by, whereas faith doesn’t necessarily do so. “The only thing that counts is faith working through love”. Gal 5:6

To the OP - - Perhaps something you could “come back with” is an analogy…
For example.
My car runs by gasoline alone - but will gasoline alone get me to my destination?

OK - maybe not the best analogy…but something to think about when people start tossing our ANYTHING “Alone”…There are too many things that are interrelated.

Peace
James

 

[deanarrca]

Thank You all !
All the replies have been helpful and I appreciate your support and encouragement.

And Thanks to John Martignoni and The Bible Christian Society. biblechristiansociety.com/home.php

I love John Martignoni in one of his messages that says-Catholicism is like a lion in a cage , our role in evangelizing is simply to open the cage door.

I was able to defend the faith, plant some seeds and open the cage door so to speak.

We parted with her at least acknowledging where I might at least, as a Bible Christian, have a problem with Faith Alone.

I left her with the question: James 2:24 is the only place in all of Scripture where the words faith and alone appear together and it is to say we are not justified/saved by faith alone.

How can anyone say they believe in Scripture as the sole authority of faith yet they don’t believe scripture when it very plainly says we are not justified by Faith Alone.

Why would the Holy Spirit have Scripture record the exact opposite of what he really means to say?

She at least acknowledged me,
Of course she left me with

Romans 3:28
“For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.”
Galatians 3:11
"Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
Titus 3:9 “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.”

She did retreat and say that was the last she was going to say on the matter.

I so wanted to respond back and explain yes I agree fully with those scriptures we are saved by faith apart from the “Works of the Law”

Funny, I didn’t say anything about being saved by works of the law, but faith working through love.

She doesn’t understand the difference.

But I reminded myself that my only goal was to defend the Faith and open the cage door which I believe I succeeded at. So I did not respond back as she wished.

I had always thought James 2:14-24 was blatantly clear and self evident.
Through this exchange I have learned how to refute the claim that James and Paul are talking about two different kinds of Faith when Fundamentalist say that to get around James 2:24.(which I never knew when I was a fundamentalist ) So my study paid off. Key James and Paul are talking about the same type of faith because they both quote the same OT scripture Genesis 15:6. They are both talking about the same kind of faith that Abraham had. Paul in Romans 4:3 and James in chapter 2:23. So they are both talking about the faith of Abraham.

So I have now a lot more confidence in my ability to explain and defend the faith. Thanks again.

Ok I just lied- I couldn’t help my self and just now responded back that I agreed with those last scriptures she posted and explained that works of the law was referring to the Mosaic Law and I was referring to faith working through love.

So thanks again
Deana
(PS it probably was the sin a spiritual pride that I had to get the last word- So forgive me but I couldn’t let that go.)

 

[deanarrca]

Church Militant
A little hard to totally ignore this person. She is the best Friend of my Sister in Law who befriended me on Facebook probably for the sole purpose of trying to evangelize me. She and my sister in law go to the same church, a small Fundamentalist non-denominational Church. My sister-in-law know my background and probably thinks i am simply a wayward Christian who for some reason left the true Church and and now in the wrong Church however, since she believes once saved always saved, Im sit saved. Well at least my sister in law has never told me to my face that she thinks I am unsaved. She has kinda proselytized me and probably thinks I am errant. I have answered her questions when she has asked me. However as you can see in the letter I shared from her friend above, her friend has stated she believes me to be unsaved and to a fundamentalist if i am unsaved then i am not even a Christian. I did take that rather personally. I haven’t unfriended her but have set restricted setting and removed her from all friend groups so she no longer appears in my newsfeed. this all stared because I made one comment on a proselytizing post she posted that did appear in my Newsfeed about being saved by grace alone through Christ alone through faith alone. I simply said I was in agreement on the first two but told her the Bible did not support Faith alone. And I would have been perfectly fine with a charitable dialogue on the matter.

Hence my beef with people posting on FB. If You only want likes and are not open to discussion and do not want dissenting opinions then don’t post your meme, link or whatever publicly. You can be selective and post things only to certain friends who you already know agree with you. That goes for Religious, Political and lately peoples very particular opinions on Food believe it or not. My sister in law is constantly proselytizing her Organic all natural Diet and another who claims you are basically amoral if you eat any there way but vegan.

 

[JRKH]

Glad to hear things went well.

Sounds like you both learned things which is always good.

Plus it sounds like things were left on a friendly note - which is the way it should be.

I think that when one of these folks run into a Catholic who really CAN defend the faith with Scripture it does more to open their mind’s than anything else.

Peace
James

 

[christiantruth]

Acts 2:38

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

How can anyone say they believe in Scripture as the sole authority of faith

yet they don’t believe scripture when it very plainly says we are not justified by Faith Alone.-

–Why would the Holy Spirit have Scripture record the exact opposite of what he really means to say?

Romans 10:8-10New International Version (NIV)

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[a] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:

9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Uploaded on Apr 9, 2008

Christians believe that Scripture alone is our highest authority, but does that mean it is our only authority?

What implications does that have for us when it comes to issues that Scripture doesn’t address?

Pastor Mark Driscoll investigates the doctrine of Sola Scriptura

youtu.be/7tuK2WJUlFM

in this clip taken from Revelation: God Speaks, the second week of Doctrine - What Christians Should Believe. View the whole sermon at marshillchurch.org/media/d…

 

[PJM]

=zz912;12296007]I’d start by asking her some questions.

1. In virtually every instance in Scripture, what are judged upon? Our faith, or our works?
2. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to feed the poor?
3. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to tend to the sick?
4. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to forgive others?
5. Can you get to Heaven if you refuse to follow Christ’s commands?

There are many more like this. She may attempt to squirm out of this by saying that “true” Christians would naturally do these things as fruit of your salvation, and if you refuse to do them, well, you weren’t “really” saved anyway. But that’s NOT what Scripture says. MOST of the NT was written to those who were ALREADY Christian, and instructed them on what they must do to be saved. Don’t let her get away with claiming that. And in many places in Scripture, the author speaks warnings to those already Christian to not fall away from the faith and lose their salvation.

Numbers 1-4 deal with indispensable Charity "the New {OLD} Commandment] John 13:34

and the 5th is what so many non-Catholics seem to miss.

The Commandments ARE but categories of possible sins.

To “KNOW-God” means to KNOW, and ACCEPT ALL that he teaches.
READ Mt. 16:18-19 and Mt 28:16-20 taking note of the singular and specific tense of the terms our Perfect God chooses to use. Only Perter and his Successors hold the Key’s to heavens access [PERIOD], so ONLY Peter and successors have the God granted ability to teach the FULLNESS of what Christ commands us to accept, believe and live

God Bless you,
Patrick