Help Defining a Person

[Voco_proTatiano]

Part two

You could consider the extra legs and arms of the poor Indian girl, to be parts of an acephalic twin.

Likewise, towards the ending of life, as systems begin to fail, it can be that the higher organizing functions of the mind allow the lower functions to become disorganized.
Like many complex systems, the mind seems to be a nested arrangement of organized co-operating subsystems. Some of these subsystems seem to be capable of exhibiting personalities in their own rights, hence split, and multiple personalities. The extreme case of later Alzheimer’s, seems to get to the situation where these subsystems are so disconnected that what was once a person, is now a nest of demons. Demons, as used in the computing sense, meaning, semi autonomous systems which parasitize the main system of the computer, sometimes to the point of making it inoperable.
At this point, the mind can no longer function as a single entity, and the person is effectively dead.
This is not the same as brain death, it is mind death.
The body, and brain may continue to function for some time, but surely, if the person has gone, then likewise, so has the soul.

I am not here talking about unconsciousness, no matter how deep, I am talking about the disintegration of the mind, and hence the person.

I do not deny miracles, and it may be that this mind-death is, like some cases of coma, reversible, but I have never heard of it.

Rosalinda wrote:

Voco Pro Tatiano post 55 said:
[sign]If there is no vehicle for the mind, then there cannot be a mind.
If there is no mind, there can be no expression of personality.
If there can be no expression of personality, then the potential person has not become actual.[/sign]

Voco Pro Tatiano post 15:
[sign]…Yes it is hard to accept that in the later stages of Alzheimer’s disease, when the mind of the sufferer has degenerated into a nest of demons, that the person of the sufferer is no longer present, what we have is essentially a body which is to all intents and purposes ‘brain-dead’, so the person of the sufferer is already dead, …[/sign]

My apologies for these direct quotations but you have accused me of misrepresenting your statements already several times. If you would like to restate your position in order to clear up any false impressions we may have of your position your time and effort would be appreciated.

No, by all means quote me fully.
I have tried to answer your points, but I am a little disorganised myself - could be a bad sign, but no, I’ve always been disorganized.
If I have missed something important, please do not hesitate to get back to me.

 

[Rosalinda]

Thank you again, Voco Pro Tatiano for your patience and expressing yourself without equivocation. I too have experienced the loss of a loved one recently but the merciful Lord had prepared me. The initial diagnosis was indeed an emotional shock. From day one, the physicians had declared there was nothing to be done as the cancer had metastasized already to the liver. As my young sister had a very strong heart and an even stronger will to live, her dying was very lengthy, so lengthy that by the time she finally drew her last breath she was barely recognizable. Did she die a cruel agonizing death? No. Every day she struggled to live was a day filled with grace. She was transformed by her suffering and in her end days experienced an abundance of joy not only because she was surrounded by the love and compassion of everyone who knew her but because the grace of the Lord was there in abundance.

Many faithful Christians have traveled this same journey and know how extraordinary are the gifts they received. The faith of our family has been strengthened; our hope has increased and our love as a family has never been as strong. None of this would have been possible, if my sister hadn’t learned to surrender her will to G_d. Fear of suffering is normal. Even Jesus begged His Father during His agony in the garden that the suffering would pass Him. My sister was very independent and strong-willed yet she surrendered. Her transformation began the hour she spent with the Lord in Eucharistic adoration. Peace settled over her. It was astonishing. On the other hand, euthanasia is a surrender to fear and an obstinate refusal to believe Our Lord’s promises, "I will be with you always." He is, He was and always will be faithful to His promises. It is just that simple.

Simple, yes; easy, no. My sister no longer enjoyed the exceptional beauty she had always been when by the time she died. Her suffering had purified her as if by fire. While I could see her deterioration with my eyes she was still the same person in my heart and mind. In our last embrace, as she sat weakly on the edge of the hospital bed, even her body no longer felt human such had the tumors distended her torso. “I love you too.” were her parting words to me. Her last 2 weeks as she lay semi-conscious, unable to eat or drink were the hardest. Even so, G_d was at work with the final touch-ups on her soul as He prepared her to enter the kingdom as a bride adorned in the finest apparel. Our family maintained a constant vigil. At one point, the small hospital room was filled with her immediate family of over twenty people, many of them on their knees in prayer reciting the rosary. Her death was a mystery that we were privileged to participate in. Yes, my heart still grieves for her loss but my soul rejoices in the goodness of the Lord. I thank the Lord she didn’t die a sudden death. I count it all mercy that she was granted precious time to prepare. Her suffering is truly over.

Finally, as a friend, I offer you the wisdom of John Paul II. It may help you to understand the mystery of human suffering.

[sign] Even though in its subjective dimension, as a personal fact contained within man’s concrete and unrepeatable interior, suffering seems almost inexpressible and not transferable, perhaps at the same time nothing else requires as much as does suffering, in *its “objective reality”,*to be dealt with, meditated upon, and conceived as an explicit problem; and that therefore basic questions be asked about it and the answers sought.[/sign]

I hope you will seek the answers.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2SALVI.HTM

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Dear Rosalinda,
Thankyou for your considered reply.
I do not fear death: death is a part of life, as is birth.
To fear death is to fear life.
I do not fear the pain of cancer, what I fear is the dissolution of my mind by something as obscene as Altzheimers disease, for I have seen it turn one loving woman into a confused child, and another into a savage beast.
Given the choice, I will not take that path.
Given the choice, I would not force anyone to take that path.
Yes, I would commit murder, that one I loved, was not forced down that path.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Dear Rosalinda,
Thankyou for your considered reply.
I do not fear death: death is a part of life, as is birth.
To fear death is to fear life.
I do not fear the pain of cancer, what I fear is the dissolution of my mind by something as obscene as Altzheimers disease, for I have seen it turn one loving woman into a confused child, and another into a savage beast.
Given the choice, I will not take that path.
Given the choice, I would not force anyone to take that path.
Yes, I would commit murder, that one I loved, was not forced down that path.

It is easy for someone like me who does not (yet?) have Alzheimer’s, but who has had relatives with it, to see it as more benign than it is.

But the states you mention are both frequently just phases in the disease. My wife was the head nurse in an Alzheimer’s Unit for some time, and while she certainly did see (and be subjected to) violent episodes, “savage beast” is well beyond anything she witnessed over the years. Some of those things depend on the skill of the people who are caring for them, and most violent or threatening events can be deflected and defused by a skilled person, as the patients are easily distractible. The childlike part of it, which is usually later than the violence-prone part, (which not all have anyway) is quite peaceful, and she found it touching. She witnessed some very surprising things during the courses in some people, including some very significant moral realizations. The ultimate self-realization and humility of one particularly powerful and vain man of great wealth who was her patient would almost be worthy of a book. She and I, only partly joking, came to consider Alzheimer’s to be the “earthly purgatory” of some; the breaking down of the meannesses and self-absorption that so many of us have. “Unless you become as little children…”, Jesus told us, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps, for some, it is a grace. The families of the patients loved my wife, as she accepted and fostered the humanity that was still within those people. She loved the patients, and the patients greatly needed it. The disease itself ultimately kills them all, and I have witnessed it. Others might have seen worse endings, but what I saw was peaceful.

Don’t misunderstand. I do not wish Alzheimer’s on anyone. But I think much of the horror people have of it is due to the lack of understanding people have of it. What we DON’T have enough of are institutions where they can receive the proper care, or appropriate means of financing the same. At a point, home care by spouses or relatives is simply not sufficient.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

It is easy for someone like me who does not (yet?) have Alzheimer’s, but who has had relatives with it, to see it as more benign than it is.

But the states you mention are both frequently just phases in the disease. My wife was the head nurse in an Alzheimer’s Unit for some time, and while she certainly did see (and be subjected to) violent episodes, “savage beast” is well beyond anything she witnessed over the years. Some of those things depend on the skill of the people who are caring for them, and most violent or threatening events can be deflected and defused by a skilled person, as the patients are easily distractible. The childlike part of it, which is usually later than the violence-prone part, (which not all have anyway) is quite peaceful, and she found it touching. She witnessed some very surprising things during the courses in some people, including some very significant moral realizations. The ultimate self-realization and humility of one particularly powerful and vain man of great wealth who was her patient would almost be worthy of a book. She and I, only partly joking, came to consider Alzheimer’s to be the “earthly purgatory” of some; the breaking down of the meannesses and self-absorption that so many of us have. “Unless you become as little children…”, Jesus told us, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Perhaps, for some, it is a grace. The families of the patients loved my wife, as she accepted and fostered the humanity that was still within those people. She loved the patients, and the patients greatly needed it. The disease itself ultimately kills them all, and I have witnessed it. Others might have seen worse endings, but what I saw was peaceful.

Don’t misunderstand. I do not wish Alzheimer’s on anyone. But I think much of the horror people have of it is due to the lack of understanding people have of it. What we DON’T have enough of are institutions where they can receive the proper care, or appropriate means of financing the same. At a point, home care by spouses or relatives is simply not sufficient.

Dear Friend, to be accurate, it is not actually Alzheimers that afflicts my Wife’s mother, but a combination of a crippling spinal disease, (spondulosis), and a series of little strokes, which have caused severe amnesia, and loss of short-term memory, which, though similar in effect to Alzheimers, is not accurately such, but a laziness on my part.
The one affliction was bad enough, but the combination of the two is a torture to watch, and I cannot imagine it it be any less so to endure.
She is alway wanting the rest-room, and seldom, due to her physical disability, gets there in time, in spite of the best efforts of the angels running the home.
She has no dignity, and spends most of the time in tears.
We all pray that this burden be lifted from her shoulders, but, though she is well past eighty years, what is left of her body refuses to die.

 

[Jennifer123]

She has no dignity, and spends most of the time in tears.
We all pray that this burden be lifted from her shoulders, but, though she is well past eighty years, what is left of her body refuses to die.

She has the inherent dignity as a child of God, made in His likeness and image. No illness or privledges granted or witheld by man can take that away.
My grandmother also died of Alzheimers and dementia, my heart goes out to you and all people who deal with this on a daily basis.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

She has the inherent dignity as a child of God, made in His likeness and image. No illness or privledges granted or witheld by man can take that away.
My grandmother also died of Alzheimers and dementia, my heart goes out to you and all people who deal with this on a daily basis.

Dear Jennifer,
I understand what you are saying, but poor Annie is too confused to feel that inherent dignity, and I confess that we lack the faith to perceive it.
We can only see a pointless suffering.
Nevertheless, I much appreciate your very sincere concern.

 

[Ridgerunner]

poor Annie is too confused to feel that inherent dignity, and I confess that we lack the faith to perceive it.
We can only see a pointless suffering.

I wonder if we really know what is going on in the soul of a person who, to us, appears to be without dignity and appears only to experience pointless suffering.

I have seen some things with dying people that have led me to suspect there may be much more going on within them than we think. And I wonder whether, if we interrupt it by terminating their lives, we are doing them any favor. I, for one, do not think my wisdom (or authority) great enough to decide that.

 

[Jennifer123]

Dear Jennifer,
I understand what you are saying, but poor Annie is too confused to feel that inherent dignity, and I confess that we lack the faith to perceive it.
We can only see a pointless suffering.
Nevertheless, I much appreciate your very sincere concern.

No suffering is pointless if united with Christ. Suffering is part of the human condition. No one escapes the ravages of sin and suffering. However, as Christians, we hope in the Lord that just as we live in Christ, we will die with Him as well. Suffering has a unique and special place in God’s plan, it is a sharing in Jesus’s passion, and those who care for others in this suffering can also share in this passion, bringing many graces to the suffering and to others.

Mankind’s obsession with avoiding pain and suffering, through abortion, euthanasia, suicide, etc., doesn’t bring any less suffering, in fact, it only brings more suffering to the human condition. You can not lessen human suffering by eliminating those who suffer. That isn’t true compassion.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

No suffering is pointless if united with Christ.

Both Job, and Our Lord remained rational during their suffering.
If the sufferer is not rational, then, though the sufferer may be united with Christ, the sufferer is unaware of this, and so feels alone.
To the sufferer then, the suffering is utterly pointless, and the limited reality perceived by the irrational person is the only reality (s)he knows.
I still believe that it cannot be right to force someone to exist in such a tormented reality.

Suffering is part of the human condition. No one escapes the ravages of sin and suffering. However, as Christians, we hope in the Lord that just as we live in Christ, we will die with Him as well. Suffering has a unique and special place in God’s plan, it is a sharing in Jesus’s passion, and those who care for others in this suffering can also share in this passion, bringing many graces to the suffering and to others.

Mankind’s obsession with avoiding pain and suffering, through abortion, euthanasia, suicide, etc., doesn’t bring any less suffering, in fact, it only brings more suffering to the human condition. You can not lessen human suffering by eliminating those who suffer. That isn’t true compassion.

Are we to consider the medical usage of anesthesia to be a sin?
Would it still be euthanasia to anesthetise a sufferer until the cause of the pain had passed?
Even if that cause of the pain was life itself?

 

[catharina]

It’s been more than week since I posted only because I was visiting family back East (in Chicago) so I do want to offer my heartfelt sympathy to anyone who has experienced a loss of family to diseases that carry much suffering. Suffering enters all of our lives through our own sitations or by having to witness the suffering of others. It’s perfectly true too, that doctors will often sedate a patient to a degree of unconscious when one’s pain has reached a level beyond bearing. We know that. That is not the issue. So is our greatest objection based in our own reluctance to witness suffering and in our inability to alleviate it? At times, I think so. I think that is the heart of the matter. It is together that we form the Mystical Body of Christ.

I don’t doubt for an instant that the purpose of suffering in the lives of those who follow Our Lord is both Christ-centered and salvific. In joining our suffering to that of Christ, souls are saved, nations are convertmed and those who have to witness such suffering are humbled. Since all Jesus said we are to learn from Him (in so many words) was to see that He is meek and humble of heart, that must be our main mission. Our immediate reward? We shall find rest for our souls. To pretend even to ourselves, that we can out-think God on this or any other matter might be due to pride at its base. I don’t and won’t take that prerogative upon myself.

Having just spent more than a week with four of my brothers, their wives and some of their children and grandchildren, having been treated with the utmost affection and concern, knowing that I am loved by them beyond reason, all of that does not make me imagine that any of them could or should have the right or the wisdom to call an end to my days on earth despite any future events. One year ago yesterday, my lifelong mentor was buried. She was a RC nun and my first professional supervisor in social services. Of course I miss her still and since she had multiple strokes and some age-related dementia for the last few years of her life, would I liked to have shortened her suffering? No. I can’t imagine why/when I might think that God’s plan for her needed my interference.

Is it terribly difficult to witness the suffering of a loved one? Yes always, at least when the condition is terminal. Have I ever hoped that the suffering of another would end. Yes. Do I understand that the prerogative to grant a happy death is God’s Alone? Yes.

VpT, I am not being offensive when I say now that your emotions are in overdrive on this matter. You who parse down to the final notes of punctuation in expressing your (mindful) conclusions are going off the charts when you say that dementia patients have minds infested by demons and are savage beasts. That’s emotionally toxic.

Sympathy to all on their personal losses. God bless all of us.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Dear catharina,
Thankyou for your considered words:
[sign]
Is it terribly difficult to witness the suffering of a loved one? Yes always, at least when the condition is terminal. Have I ever hoped that the suffering of another would end. Yes. Do I understand that the prerogative to grant a happy death is God’s Alone? Yes.

VpT, I am not being offensive when I say now that your emotions are in overdrive on this matter. You who parse down to the final notes of punctuation in expressing your (mindful) conclusions are going off the charts when you say that dementia patients have minds infested by demons and are savage beasts. That’s emotionally toxic.

Sympathy to all on their personal losses. God bless all of us.[/sign]
Yes, I admit that I am emotionally involved, this matter is breaking up my wife, and what hurts her hurts me.
But as I write, I see my dog, sorry b|i|t|c|h, gazing into my eyes, and I cannot doubt that though she is not human, yet she is a person, and is trying, and succeeding in communicating with me.
Should I then, because she is a person, and in her own small way, also a child of G_d, allow her to suffer in her old age, when her time comes, because it is up to G_d to decide when her days are fulfilled?
Or should I take literally that we are the body of Christ, and we are entrusted to be the hands and fingers of G_d, to do, what we perceive to be mercy and love.
Yes, we are more than dogs: my dog knows I am more than a dog, and will fight to the death to protect this family. Our Lord said we are better than sparrows, but He also said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without the concern bof G_d.
So now, before I turn in, I will take her out for the last walk of the day.
Goodnight, G_d bless!

 

[catharina]

Dear catharina,
Thankyou for your considered words:
[sign]
Is it terribly difficult to witness the suffering of a loved one? Yes always, at least when the condition is terminal. Have I ever hoped that the suffering of another would end. Yes. Do I understand that the prerogative to grant a happy death is God’s Alone? Yes.

VpT, I am not being offensive when I say now that your emotions are in overdrive on this matter. You who parse down to the final notes of punctuation in expressing your (mindful) conclusions are going off the charts when you say that dementia patients have minds infested by demons and are savage beasts. That’s emotionally toxic.

Sympathy to all on their personal losses. God bless all of us.[/sign]
Yes, I admit that I am emotionally involved, this matter is breaking up my wife, and what hurts her hurts me.
But as I write, I see my dog, sorry b|i|t|c|h, gazing into my eyes, and I cannot doubt that though she is not human, yet she is a person, and is trying, and succeeding in communicating with me.
Should I then, because she is a person, and in her own small way, also a child of G_d, allow her to suffer in her old age, when her time comes, because it is up to G_d to decide when her days are fulfilled?
Or should I take literally that we are the body of Christ, and we are entrusted to be the hands and fingers of G_d, to do, what we perceive to be mercy and love.
Yes, we are more than dogs: my dog knows I am more than a dog, and will fight to the death to protect this family. Our Lord said we are better than sparrows, but He also said that not a sparrow falls to the ground without the concern bof G_d.
So now, before I turn in, I will take her out for the last walk of the day.
Goodnight, G_d bless!

If you actually believe that your dog is a person
then might I suggest that you have lots of growing to do?
You are master and owner of your dog.
You are not master and owner of any actual human person.

Brute animals, always less than humanity, are here to serve us. It has been ever thus. We, as people, are NOT to dispense with the lives of others out of a sense of misplaced omniscience and even more misplaced compassion. God has compassion for all.

If I’m correct in guessing that this existential crisis of yours has been brought on by witnessing the intense suffering of others (while you remained unable to relieve it), then might I suggest that the work ahead of you involves the simple recognition that our intelligence (as humans) is dreadfully limited and we are not equipped to understand everything - especially suffering.

May God have mercy on all.

 

[Rosalinda]

Voco Pro Tatiano is a little confused distinguishing the distinct essential nature of a dog from a human person. Dogs do possess souls: animal souls. They are not immortal. Human beings, on the other hand, are “embodied spirits,” spirits united to matter. The human being is a unity of soul and body; the name “man” thus applies to a composite substance, to soul and body together. The soul informs the matter directly, making it a human body. The human or rational soul is a higher form than the form which accounts for a purely animal life. The human soul is immortal.

The Catholic Catechism contains many pearls of wisdom worthy of your reflection:

164 Now, however,* “we walk by faith, not by sight”*; (2Cor.5:7) we perceive God as “in a mirror, dimly” and only *“in part.” *(1Cor.13:12) Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. The world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice, and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they **can shake our faith and become a temptation against it. **

Bottom line, Voco. You need to pray. Pray, “Jesus, help my unbelief. Increase my faith.” or “Jesus, I trust in you.” Pray constantly and continuously and your burden will be lightened. Don’t allow this crisis to plummet you into despair.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

If you actually believe that your dog is a person
then might I suggest that you have lots of growing to do?
You are master and owner of your dog.
You are not master and owner of any actual human person.

Good Morning Catharina,
I understand that my view of animals is different from that in the Church.
But I too remember, there was a time when Blacks were considered to be less than human, and that idea was not cursed by the Church.
Women were, and still are in some societies classed as less than fully human.
So I am not surprised or offended by the idea that non-humans cannot be seen as persons by some.
Tell me, what are we going to think when ET actually does come here?
Will we classify ET as human, even if there is no genetical relationship at all?
ET could very well be a reptile.
Dynasaurs became birds, and some birds comprehend human language, and can use it in context.
Like everything, there is no sharp line between the personhood of humans, and the personhood of the “higher” animals.
As we mature, we will find that is a truth beyond rejection.

Brute animals, always less than humanity, are here to serve us. It has been ever thus. We, as people, are NOT to dispense with the lives of others out of a sense of misplaced omniscience and even more misplaced compassion. God has compassion for all.

Brute animals, yes, but not all animals are brutes.
Horses are our servants, or more actually, slaves.
Cats and dogs, and some birds are, though still slaves, our companions.
And like in days of old, companion slaves are treated better than common slaves, and given a status close to that of family member, indeed, to some extent, recognised as human, and treated as persons.

If I’m correct in guessing that this existential crisis of yours has been brought on by witnessing the intense suffering of others (while you remained unable to relieve it), then might I suggest that the work ahead of you involves the simple recognition that our intelligence (as humans) is dreadfully limited and we are not equipped to understand everything - especially suffering.

May God have mercy on all.

I remember when I went to work in Saudi Arabia, how I was treated, though with respect, being a foreigner, and a non Muslim, as something less than a Saudi.
Something less than a fully human being.
A servant, though possibly more than a slave, and dispensible.
It was interesting, and a little frightening to get an idea of the status of a slave.
How are we going to react if ET turns out to be so much more advanced than us, that we are classed as beasts of burden?

 

[catharina]

**
Good morning VpT.

With all due respect, your imaginings are wasted on me. My response is bolded/colored below within your quoted post. **

Good Morning Catharina,
I understand that my view of animals is different from that in the Church. (Different from that of most people too.)
But I too remember, there was a time when Blacks were considered to be less than human, and that idea was not cursed by the Church. Yet slavery still exists, especially in the MidEast and parts of Africa. The Church, having grown under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, has indeed spoken clearly (and still speaks clearly) against human trafficking.

Women were, and still are in some societies classed as less than fully human. The Church has spoken against this too.

So I am not surprised or offended by the idea that non-humans cannot be seen as persons by some. Tell me, what are we going to think when ET actually does come here?
Will we classify ET as human, even if there is no genetical relationship at all?
ET could very well be a reptile.
Dynasaurs became birds, and some birds comprehend human language, and can use it in context.

When “some” are willing to describe other people as “savage beasts” then I can’t be totally surprised that those same ‘thinkers’ would imagine the imaginary ET as their "brother."

Like everything, there is no sharp line between the personhood of humans, and the personhood of the “higher” animals.
As we mature, we will find that is a truth beyond rejection. **There are many clear lines that define separate species and abilities. They exist in the realm of common knowledge. Although people under emotional siege might chose to make “friends” with their pets, the bottom line exists and tells us that we are free to do so since animals can be trained to submit to authority. People must choose to make such a submission. Any claim for the “special needs” of one’s pets speaks against the real human rights of those people who live without basic freedoms. Maturity has taught me that truth and it is clearly recognizable. **

Brute animals, yes, but not all animals are brutes.
Horses are our servants, or more actually, slaves.
Cats and dogs, and some birds are, though still slaves, our companions.
And like in days of old, companion slaves are treated better than common slaves, and given a status close to that of family member, indeed, to some extent, recognised as human, and treated as persons.
**
I’m sorry if you feel that your pets are your slaves. In general, people who keep pets value them as cherished property. **

I remember when I went to work in Saudi Arabia, how I was treated, though with respect, being a foreigner, and a non Muslim, as something less than a Saudi.
Something less than a fully human being.
A servant, though possibly more than a slave, and dispensible.
It was interesting, and a little frightening to get an idea of the status of a slave.
How are we going to react if ET turns out to be so much more advanced than us, that we are classed as beasts of burden?

**As a non-Saudi, you were naturally treated as less than a Saudi. The same would be true for you in Great Britain if you were not British, and in the States if your were without citizenship here. Again, I’m not a part of the “we” that awaits any encounter with “ET” or other imaginary aliens. I agree with Rosalinda, that you would be helped greatly by an increase of prayer. As it is, it seems you are more subject to the influence of fantasy rather than reality.
**

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

**
Good morning VpT.

With all due respect, your imaginings are wasted on me. My response is bolded/colored below within your quoted post. **

Hi Catharina,
Yes, I do see many things differently. But here:
[sign]I’m sorry if you feel that your pets are your slaves. In general, people who keep pets value them as cherished property.
[/sign]
I think you are in error.
A sentient being, kept as property, is exactly as most people would describe as a slave.
The slave may be a cherished companion, but is, nevertheless, a slave.
Perhaps you do not consider cats, dogs, and greater parrots to be sentient, but that opinion is being questioned by today’s science. It is certainly contrary to my experience.

 

[Rosalinda]

. Man is called to a fullness of life which far exceeds the dimensions of his earthly existence, because it consists in sharing the very life of God. The loftiness of this supernatural vocation reveals the greatness and the inestimable value of human life even in its temporal phase. Life in time, in fact, is the fundamental condition, the initial stage and an integral part of the entire unified process of human existence. It is a process which, unexpectedly and undeservedly, is enlightened by the promise and renewed by the gift of divine life, which will reach its full realization in eternity (cf. 1 Jn 3:1-2). At the same time, it is precisely this supernatural calling which highlights the relative character of each individual’s earthly life. After all, life on earth is not an “ultimate” but a “penultimate” reality; even so, it remains a sacred reality entrusted to us, to be preserved with a sense of responsibility and brought to perfection in love and in the gift of ourselves to God and to our brothers and sisters.

John Paul II, Gospel of Life, 1995
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM

Voco Pro Tatiano, If you want to elevate your mind and keep your sanity I respectfully suggest you are in need of much prayer and reflective reading. Yes, we know you are not Catholic but it would be a shame for you to continue imbibing all the popular myths and philosophical errors -so prevalent in our day- without occasionally seeking an antidote to the poison which has infected your thinking and blinded your soul to truth and justice. Bottom line, you want to be treated like a dog and demand the right to die like a dog. Moreover, you have even arrogated to yourself the power to decide your wife should die like a dog too should she be unfortunate enough to no longer meet your standard of what makes a human being a person. It’s not a priest you want to call when you are facing death but a veterinarian. Nonsense. Christians are called to build a culture of love. Mankind should never forget that while we have a duty of responsible stewardship for all God’s creation human beings are the highest form of life on earth. We alone have been created in the image of God and are destined to return to Him.

As for your query on ET. An extra terrestrial being already did come to earth. We crucified Him.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

John Paul II, Gospel of Life, 1995
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EVANG.HTM

Voco Pro Tatiano, If you want to elevate your mind and keep your sanity I respectfully suggest you are in need of much prayer and reflective reading. Yes, we know you are not Catholic but it would be a shame for you to continue imbibing all the popular myths and philosophical errors -so prevalent in our day- without occasionally seeking an antidote to the poison which has infected your thinking and blinded your soul to truth and justice. Bottom line, you want to be treated like a dog and demand the right to die like a dog. Moreover, you have even arrogated to yourself the power to decide your wife should die like a dog too should she be unfortunate enough to no longer meet your standard of what makes a human being a person. It’s not a priest you want to call when you are facing death but a veterinarian. Nonsense. Christians are called to build a culture of love. Mankind should never forget that while we have a duty of responsible stewardship for all God’s creation human beings are the highest form of life on earth. We alone have been created in the image of God and are destined to return to Him.

As for your query on ET. An extra terrestrial being already did come to earth. We crucified Him.

Dear Rosalinda,
Thankyou for the link, It is somewhat of a tome, but I will read it.
I have got about a sixth of the way into it, and yes, for the most part, I find it acceptable.
The differences I have, are I think, very minor.
Yes, I accept and happily that we are specifically differentiated from the brute animals. I do though defend the idea that animals which have self awareness, are only different from us in measure.
This is a very small group of animals, including some dogs, some whales, some non-human primates, and elephants.
The first test is how the creature reacts to its reflection in a mirror.
Cats fail this test, and attack the reflection as another creature.
Dolphins and Chimps pass this test easily, and I am convinced that my dog at least understands not only her reflection, but knows where to put herself so that I can see her, and V.V.!
Elephants understand death, and venerate the bones of their departed.
No, I do not wish to be treated like a dog, I only insist that I should not be treated worse than a dog.
I understand that euthanasia should be discouraged, but I do not accept that it should be illegal.
I believe that if after the serious efforts of all to dissuade the person from taking an early exit, if, and only if, the person concerned, is cogently satisfied that it is not suicide, but a sacrifice for the benefit of others, then this is not a conscious sin, but an honourable sacrifice.
Remember, when Our Lord, passing through the Samaritan village on the way to Jerusalem, to face His nemesis, He received the rejection of the Samaritans. They saw this action of His as plain suicide and cursed it, casting Him out.
We all know though that it was not such, but was in fact a sacrifice. It was in fact The Sacrifice.
This is the only condition that I would request exit, namely, not for the relief of personal suffering, but that I be not a burden to those I would give benefit, and not liability, that is, to those I love.
Now back to E.V.

 

[catharina]

VpT - While I haven’t read all of the posts that appeared during my absence, I hope you’ll consider this suggestion (even if others have made it already). Take the time to locate a copy of Thomas Merton’s Seven Storey Mountain and read the book. He too once thought that, as a lapsed Anglican, he could figure out every working of the universe without a faith as part of his life. As you must know, his searching for answers as a young man led him into the RC Church and indeed into life as a RC monk.