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M
mikeledes
Guest
That’s right! We freely participate in this eternal life as long as we remain in the source of that life, Jesus Christ. I don’t know what your interpretation of John 15 is now, Apophasis, but it perfectly conveys this. Even your fellow suppoters of eternal security have debunked your interpretation of it. This gift is finally consumated when we are glorified, but we know this glorification is not a guarantee (1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 11:21-22, Revelation 22:19).
Revelation 22:19
“… and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will TAKE AWAY his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book”
Something cannot be *taken away *unless it was yours in the first place. No one has a share in the eternal inheritance (“holy city”) unless he was first in Christ.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Matthew 16:27 (NASB)
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS”
John 5:28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear my voice, and will come forth; those **who did B]good deeds **to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deads to a resurrection of judgement.”
Romans 2:6-7
"Who will RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:to those who by PERSEVERANCE in DOING GOOD … ETERNAL LIFE
John 2:17
“The world is passing away, and also its lust; but the ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD LIVES FOREVER”
1 Timothy 4:16
“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this will ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
Galatians 6:7-9
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a MAN SOWS, this he will also REAP. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from he flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap (i.e. eternal life) iwe do not grow weary.
Romans 8:12-13
“So then, brethren, we are UNDER OBLIGATION, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are **putting to death ** the deeds of the body, you will LIVE.”
Please explain, Apophasis, how your interpretation of eternal life and salvation square with the above passages. We are under obligation to live by the Spirit, to live in righteousness. If we fail to persevere in doing so, we will die.
God Bless,
Michael
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS”
John 5:28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear my voice, and will come forth; those **who did B]good deeds **to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deads to a resurrection of judgement.”
Romans 2:6-7
"Who will RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:to those who by PERSEVERANCE in DOING GOOD … ETERNAL LIFE
John 2:17
“The world is passing away, and also its lust; but the ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD LIVES FOREVER”
1 Timothy 4:16
“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this will ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
Galatians 6:7-9
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a MAN SOWS, this he will also REAP. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from he flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap (i.e. eternal life) iwe do not grow weary.
Romans 8:12-13
“So then, brethren, we are UNDER OBLIGATION, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are **putting to death ** the deeds of the body, you will LIVE.”
Please explain, Apophasis, how your interpretation of eternal life and salvation square with the above passages. We are under obligation to live by the Spirit, to live in righteousness. If we fail to persevere in doing so, we will die.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Matthew 16:27 (NASB)
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS”
John 5:28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear my voice, and will come forth; those who did good deeds to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deads to a resurrection of judgement.”
Romans 2:6-7
"Who will RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:to those who by PERSEVERANCE in DOING GOOD … ETERNAL LIFE
John 2:17
“The world is passing away, and also its lust; but the ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD LIVES FOREVER”
1 Timothy 4:16
“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this will ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
Galatians 6:7-9
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a MAN SOWS, this he will also REAP. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from he flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap (i.e. eternal life) iwe do not grow weary.
Romans 8:12-13
“So then, brethren, we are UNDER OBLIGATION, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you (i.e. justified person) are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are **putting to death ** the deeds of the body, you will LIVE.”
Please explain, Apophasis, how your interpretation of eternal life and salvation square with the above passages.
God Bless,
Michael
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS”
John 5:28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear my voice, and will come forth; those who did good deeds to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deads to a resurrection of judgement.”
Romans 2:6-7
"Who will RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:to those who by PERSEVERANCE in DOING GOOD … ETERNAL LIFE
John 2:17
“The world is passing away, and also its lust; but the ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD LIVES FOREVER”
1 Timothy 4:16
“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this will ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
Galatians 6:7-9
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a MAN SOWS, this he will also REAP. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from he flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap (i.e. eternal life) iwe do not grow weary.
Romans 8:12-13
“So then, brethren, we are UNDER OBLIGATION, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you (i.e. justified person) are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are **putting to death ** the deeds of the body, you will LIVE.”
Please explain, Apophasis, how your interpretation of eternal life and salvation square with the above passages.
God Bless,
Michael
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
If you read all of James 2 you’ll see using this verse as a defense against sola fide is being dishonest, also if this verse was meant to be as you propose then the bible would contradict itself…
James 2 should be read with this verse in mind. This is what is meant in James.
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
This post makes me think that your starting to see the errors in sola fide.
Your right, the bible would contradict itself if you view it thru your traditions and try to reconcile those traditions with the faith as taught by Christ’s Church.
A
apophasis
Guest
In Romans eight Paul is contrasting between those who are “in the flesh” (vs. 8) and those who are “in the Spirit.” Between the saved and the unsaved; the redeemed and the unredeemed; the justified and the unjustified.
Because of your unbelief, Michael, it is impossible for you to interpret Scripture based on their intended context. Your mind glosses over differentiating passages such as:"…and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. However YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."ALL true believers are indwelt by the Spirit. He goes on to state the assurance of the true believer’s future glory with Christ through the resurrection of our yet unredeemed bodies:Rom 8:10-11 "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."Paul is writing to those who are “in Christ” through faith in Him after believing the “word of the cross” that was preached to them. These are being led by the Spirit and he rightfully identifies them:Rom 8:14-17 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we ARE children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with {Him} so that we may also be glorified with {Him.}The true children of God suffer because of the unbelief in this world. Because unbelief is always hostile toward belief. But Paul assures us who are true, adopted sons of God:Rom 8:18 "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us."The Apostle John concurs with this future revelation of the true sons of God (1 Jn. 3:1-2; cf. Col. 3:4) This isn’t an empty hope, Michael. But one based on the assurance of sonship through the cross of Christ. To understand the status of those who are children of God you must read the first verse of this glorious chapter:Rom 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."But you who are in *unbelief *are always under the threat of condemnation. You interpret Scripture and form your theology based on this continual fear of condemnation. It is literally impossible for unbelief to even begin to comprehend the “no condemnation” relationship between God and His adopted sons through faith in Christ Jesus, who was delivered up for them. The difference between *belief *and unbelief is as the difference between light and darkness.
M
Mickey
Guest
I am always immeasurably saddened when people come onto this forum and judge others to be unbelievers.
A
apophasis
Guest
Is this ALL you gleaned out of the post, Mickey? I judged no one based on personal bias, but one’s complete inability to understand all that God has accomplished FOR and IN those who come to Him through faith in Christ alone. The true gospel message of the cross is not a message attached with an underlying threat of condemnation, but of a glorious. divine salvation, justification and redemption through faith in Christ’s finished work alone - to His glory: “But the righteous man shall walk by faith.”I am always immeasurably saddened when people come onto this forum and judge others to be unbelievers.
How is it Paul emphatically states that “there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus,” and yet your message is “there is yet a threat of condemnation for all those who are in Christ Jesus.” Such a nonbiblical, attached threat is rooted in unbelief. How else can one explain it?
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
I agree with Mickey’s comment…
Chosing this verse and that verse to loosely try to justify a man made tradition is not “in context”
Keep trying…
M
Mickey
Guest
The bottom line is that you have judged someone as a non-believer because they do not subscribe to your interpretation of Scripture. This is what I have gleaned, and it causes me to mourn. I have seen you take this approach many times and it lacks Christian love and charity…
so very, very sad.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Read the rest of Romans. Verse 23-24 chapter 8 of Romans contradict your statement. Why is that?
Keep trying…
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Read the rest of Romans. Verse 23-24 chapter 8 of Romans contradict your opinion. Why is that?
Keep trying…
A
apophasis
Guest
The “hope” that is yet “not seen” is the glorification of our yet unredeemed bodies. The consummation of our complete salvation: body, soul and spirit.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Well then, come out of the darkness and into the light.
Follow Christ and his Church.
A
apophasis
Guest
Let me clarify this for you. When I said, “your unbelief,” it was not in reference to personal salvation (that’s between him and God), but unbelief in what is clearly revealed/taught in the Epistles (especially Pauline) concerning ALL that was/is accomplished FOR and IN the one who comes BY FAITH in Christ alone. A refusal to believe ALL that God accomplished through the cross of Christ on behalf of the redeeemed through His blood.The bottom line is that you have judged someone as a non-believer because they do not subscribe to your interpretation of Scripture. This is what I have gleaned, and it causes me to mourn. I have seen you take this approach many times and it lacks Christian love and charity…
so very, very sad.
One can believe the message that Christ died for sins, yet refuse to believe ALL that His substitutionary death and subsequent resurrection accomplishes in respect to those who personally believe/receive the message and are now “in Christ.” Denying what God has wrought, through the cross, on behalf of all who believe. Belief is not simply acknowledging what Christ did 2000 years ago at Calvary, but also what God has revealed in His written Word concerning ALL He has done FOR the believer now created “in Him” (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:10).
True belief in Christ anticipates the yet glorification of our bodies who “will conform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory” (Phil. 3:21). Because, Paul states, “our citizenship is (already) in heaven” (Phil. 3:20).
Unbelief in ALL that God has accomplished on behalf of the believer (as revealed in the Epistles, especially Pauline), on the other hand, causes one to live in a constant threat of condemnation, ever bound to a “a spirit of slavery” (Rom. 8:15), either self-imposed or by others, ever hoping/striving to finally be saved based on one’s own efforts and acts of righteousness.
But in view of the OP, Paul refers to Abraham who was justified by faith alone:Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it (justification) was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this GRACE in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."
Belief embraces this revealed truth. Unbelief repels it.
M
Mickey
Guest
Let me clarify this for you, my friend. You are not to judge someone’s heart—PERIOD—whether it pertains to someone’s personal salvation, or the fact that they do not adhere to apophasis’ interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures (especially the Pauline epistles).
You should pray about that.
M
mikeledes
Guest
So it is because of my “unbelief” that I am unable to understand Scipture and that’s why I “gloss” over certain passages. That’s very interesting because I gave you a whole list of Bible passages and you chose to address only one. Why? I will not say because of unbelief because I am the judge of no one.
Let’s take a look at this passage again:
Romans 8:12, 15
“So then BRETHREN, we are under oblication, not to the flesh - for if YOU are LIVINGaccording to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, YOU will live… For YOU have not received the spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but YOU have received the spirit of adoption as sons…”
Who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to the “Brethren” (i.e. brothers in Christ). I emphsaized “you” so that you can see that in verse 12 he is referring to those who are justified, who have received the Spirit and are “in the Spirit (verse 15).” So the distinction Paul is making in verse 12 is not between those who are “in the Flesh” and those who are “in the Spirit,” but those who are living according to the flesh and those who are living according to the Spirit.
Just because a person has received the Spirit does not mean they will automatically live according to the Spirit. The “living” part is an ACT of the will and that is why Paul urges Christians to PUT (i.e. word of action that depends on the human will) to death the deads of the body by the Spirit that was given them. Are you saying that once a person is justified, he automtically lives according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh? Then explain:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants IN CHRIST. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you are not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking like mere men?”
Here, Paul is clearly telling the Corinthians that they are not behaving as those who have received the Spirit (i.e. spiritual men) but are living according to the flesh. And yet he is talking to the justified because he refers to them as “infants in Christ.”
Now Paul clearly states in Galatians 5:19-21 that those who practice the “deeds of the flesh” will “not inherit the kingdom of God,” and thus urges Christians to live by the Spirit. He says in verse 25 that “if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”
Walking by the Spirit means subjecting one’s body and its desires to the will of God by disciplining ourselves with the aid of the Spirit.
1 Timothy 4:7-8
“…On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and the life to come.”
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
"Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline
my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Disqualified from what? Disqualified from glorification! For what reason? For allowing the desires of the body (i.e. flesh) to overcome. This brings us back to Romans 8:12:
So then BRETHREN, we are under oblication, not to the flesh - for if YOU are LIVINGaccording to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, YOU will live.
If we want to be glorified, we must put to death the “deeds of the body” by disciplining our body for the purpose of godliness. We must make our bodies “instruments of righteousness” (Romans 6:12-13). If not, we will be “disqualified” and hence “die” (i.e. eternal damnation), becoming a withered branch thrown into the fire.
Being that you are so spiritual and posses such great wisdom and knowledge of the Word of God that you can even judge my standing with God, this unbeliever humbly submits this for your consideration.
God bless,
Michael
Let’s take a look at this passage again:
Romans 8:12, 15
“So then BRETHREN, we are under oblication, not to the flesh - for if YOU are LIVINGaccording to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, YOU will live… For YOU have not received the spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but YOU have received the spirit of adoption as sons…”
Who is Paul speaking to? He is speaking to the “Brethren” (i.e. brothers in Christ). I emphsaized “you” so that you can see that in verse 12 he is referring to those who are justified, who have received the Spirit and are “in the Spirit (verse 15).” So the distinction Paul is making in verse 12 is not between those who are “in the Flesh” and those who are “in the Spirit,” but those who are living according to the flesh and those who are living according to the Spirit.
Just because a person has received the Spirit does not mean they will automatically live according to the Spirit. The “living” part is an ACT of the will and that is why Paul urges Christians to PUT (i.e. word of action that depends on the human will) to death the deads of the body by the Spirit that was given them. Are you saying that once a person is justified, he automtically lives according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh? Then explain:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants IN CHRIST. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you are not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are walking like mere men?”
Here, Paul is clearly telling the Corinthians that they are not behaving as those who have received the Spirit (i.e. spiritual men) but are living according to the flesh. And yet he is talking to the justified because he refers to them as “infants in Christ.”
Now Paul clearly states in Galatians 5:19-21 that those who practice the “deeds of the flesh” will “not inherit the kingdom of God,” and thus urges Christians to live by the Spirit. He says in verse 25 that “if we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”
Walking by the Spirit means subjecting one’s body and its desires to the will of God by disciplining ourselves with the aid of the Spirit.
1 Timothy 4:7-8
“…On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and the life to come.”
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
"Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline
my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
Disqualified from what? Disqualified from glorification! For what reason? For allowing the desires of the body (i.e. flesh) to overcome. This brings us back to Romans 8:12:
So then BRETHREN, we are under oblication, not to the flesh - for if YOU are LIVINGaccording to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, YOU will live.
If we want to be glorified, we must put to death the “deeds of the body” by disciplining our body for the purpose of godliness. We must make our bodies “instruments of righteousness” (Romans 6:12-13). If not, we will be “disqualified” and hence “die” (i.e. eternal damnation), becoming a withered branch thrown into the fire.
Being that you are so spiritual and posses such great wisdom and knowledge of the Word of God that you can even judge my standing with God, this unbeliever humbly submits this for your consideration.
God bless,
Michael
M
Mickey
Guest
God bless you, Michael.
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.
We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things.
Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?
Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
For he will render to every man according to his works:
Romans 2:1-6
M
mikeledes
Guest
There is no threat of condemnation for those who live and die in Christ:
Matthew 10:22
“… but it is the one WHO HAS ENDURED TO THE END that will be saved.”
Revelation 3:5
“He who OVERCOMES will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life…”
Revelation 2:10
“Be faithful until DEATH, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Hebrews 3:14
“For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”
These verses talk about persevering in Christ until the end in order to enjoy the final consummation of our salvation, glorification or entrance “into eternal life (Matthew 25:46).”
God bless,
Michael
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