HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[apophasis]

Pax:

You need to think about this statement. First you claim that your faith is not an active faith. The apostle James would respond to you and say that your inactive faith is “dead.” You claim that your faith is passive. Believing is not passive. Believing is something that we do by the grace of God.

No. The faith through which God Himself graciously saves a sinner is truly passive. A faith that totally trusts in the Person and work of Someone else. A work on your behalf in which you are not even qualified to participate.

On the Day of Atonement only the High Priest was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrificed goat to sprinkle on the mercy seat. All Israel could do absolutely nothing but passively wait outside for the work of atonement to be completed by another, and subsequently accepted by God - that their sins would be covered for another year.

In the same way, no sinner is qualified to participate in the work of redemption which only Christ Himself accomplished on the cross. Scripture records that there were standing by the cross his mother, some other women, and the disciple John; all they could do was watch. They could not participate. The work of redemption was His work, and His alone. All any sinners can do now, and are required to do now, is believe what HE accomplished there on the cross for them; believe “the word of the cross.” This is true salvation faith. This is what it means to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31).Once a sinner is saved by grace through passive faith in Christ," he is then “created in Christ Jesus” (the “Last Adam”) FOR good works, but never BY them.

Your illustration of Balaam’s donkey only works if you’re claiming the donkey spoke because it was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, created new in Christ Jesus. But Christ didn’t go to the cross for the sake of donkeys.

Look, I’ve never said believers don’t do works, but that works are not a prerequisite FOR salvation, as all of you are asserting. “Created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” is talking about the saved, the redeemed, the newly created in Christ Jesus through personal faith in Him, not talking donkeys.

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis,

You also asked where it is in Romans that we read something about “initial” justification.

I would submit the following:

Romans 13:11-14
Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed; the night is far gone, the day is at hand. Let us then cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

The “salvation” that was nearer than when the readers first believed refers to ALL that Christ will do at the time of His coming for us, His Bride. This includes the bodily resurrection of those who have died in Christ, and the bodily translation of all who are still alive.Rom. 8:18 “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.”

Rom. 8:23 "And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.John also spoke of this anticipation:1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."None of this is speaking of the notion of “initial” justificaton. Paul never employed the word with his teachings on the subject. But instead he he used terms such as, “have been” or “therefore, having been justified.”

 

[beobab]

Why do you think it is possible to seperate faith and works? Why would you want to?

Every day you are called to demonstrate your faith. Do so.

Every day you are called to pray. Do so.

One day you’ll be called home, and will have to account for your life. Be one of the ones who said “When did we see you hungry and feed you?” rather than one of the ones who said “When did we not minister to your needs?” [Matthew 25]

Beobab

 

[mom2three]

I always find it amazing (but not surprising) that Catholics almost never provide me with a personal answer to this question, but instead out-source me to some link:

I don’t see why this would be an issue. If you’re seeking a Catholic viewpoint, it’s often best to get it directly from the source. Never mind the fact that I didn’t ONLY send links… but it’s okay… you can take this one instance and completely disregard the rest

Now what I find interesting in the above explanation regarding “faith” in Christ (and throughout the whole link) is that there is absolutely no reference to the cross of Christ. Yet it was “the word of the cross” that was taken to the world by the Apostles to be believed on for salvation (1 Cor. 1:18; Rom. 1:16-17).

That’s because that part of it is a “given”. Without the work on the cross and without the grace of God, none of us would be saved… even by faith.

Abraham was justified when he personally believed “in the Lord” (Gen. 15:6). Men are saved/justified, this side of the cross, when they believe “in Christ,” meaning “the word of the cross” concerning Him (Col. 2:13-14). This is the content of saving faith. You can believe Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead, even all His teachings, and still not actually believe “in Him.” Salvation faith is rooted in the cross and its substitutionary value on our behalf. Jesus said: John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

To believe “in Christ” is to believe He did it all, that He accomplished your full redemption there on the cross, and all yours sins forgiven . It was all His work - none of yours.

We agree here… it IS all his work. And Catholics aren’t claiming it is a work of their own doing… NOT AT ALL!

Salvation through faith is not, was not, nor ever will be a cooperative effort. What He did is applied to you in full, by God, at the time of personal faith "in Him.

Our faith is a cooperation… without our faith… accepting God’s grace, we would not be saved.

 

[mom2three]

The necessity of baptism:

John 3:5 (straight from the mouth of our Lord)
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

1 Pet. 3:21
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent **and **be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Rom. 6:3–4
3Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Col. 2:11–12
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Early Christians believed that baptism washed away their sins… even within the first century! Should we assume that they all understood Jesus incorrectly and that early Christians messed it up and continued to mess it up for 1500 years until we got it right in the last couple hundred years?

Even Luther said: “Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).

Did he ALSO get it wrong?

And in regards to infants: I cited a verse that showed the baptism replace circumcision. Your references also ignore that it states that households were baptized… This did not indicate that infants were not included… Yes, households had faith but they were also BAPTIZED…

It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers.
Reference: catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp

If there is not exception of faith for infants, then you would be forced to believe that all infants go to hell.

Baptism is an instrument for salvation… for ALL… even infants.

 

[VociMike]

To believe “in Christ” is to believe He did it all, that He accomplished your full redemption there on the cross, and all yours sins forgiven . It was all His work - none of yours. Salvation through faith is not, was not, nor ever will be a cooperative effort. What He did is applied to you in full, by God, at the time of personal faith “in Him.”

This is so self-contradicting I hardly know where to begin. You say that to be saved a person must do something, but at the same time you say that salvation is not a cooperative effort. You say it was all of God’s work, none of yours and at the same time you say we must play a part in our own salvation by having personal faith.

And you don’t even see these contradictions, right?

If it’s all God’s work, we shouldn’t have to do anything, including having faith. If it’s all God’s work, and not in any sense a cooperative effort, we should just be able to sit around like rocks and receive our salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

I just find it funny that the father of Protestantism and the formulator of the justification by faith alone doctrine , Martin Luther believed not only in baptismal regeneration, but in infant baptism as well. How can he be so right on justification and so wrong on baptism? If he was wrong on baptism, how do you know he was wrong on justification?

 

[DARichards]

No. The faith through which God Himself graciously saves a sinner is truly passive. A faith that totally trusts in the Person and work of Someone else. A work on your behalf in which you are not even qualified to participate.

Correct. The faith with which we believe that Christ is our atonement is a gift that is given to us through God. This is something that we didn’t and couldn’t earn it is a gift of God. Nothing required. God revealed it to us, we accepted (which is an action), and we were saved at that point. However, our salvation is not “finalized” at that point. We then become disciples. We continue our salvation as we submit our lives to Christ and we hope to be finally saved on the day of His return.

On the Day of Atonement only the High Priest was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrificed goat to sprinkle on the mercy seat. All Israel could do absolutely nothing but passively wait outside for the work of atonement to be completed by another, and subsequently accepted by God - that their sins would be covered for another year.

This would probably refer more to the Sacrament of Reconcilication than our Salvation. As Catholics, we present our sins to Our Lord and we do nothing to receive His forgiveness, it is a gift that He earned for us. Our penance that we do is an act of contrition to show our Lord that we are truly sorry for our sins.
If we aren’t willing to show the Lord that we are truly sorry, then are we??? ( another thread.)

In the same way, no sinner is qualified to participate in the work of redemption which only Christ Himself accomplished on the cross. Scripture records that there were standing by the cross his mother, some other women, and the disciple John; all they could do was watch. They could not participate. The work of redemption was His work, and His alone. All any sinners can do now, and are required to do now, is believe what HE accomplished there on the cross for them; believe “the word of the cross.” This is true salvation faith. This is what it means to “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved” (Acts 16:31).Once a sinner is saved by grace through passive faith in Christ," he is then “created in Christ Jesus” (the “Last Adam”) FOR good works, but never BY them.

Let’s be clear on this. The very act of Christ’s redemption, nobody else could accomplish. We could not and cannot earn the gift of that Salvation. However, that gift is not a spiritual drive through where we pick it up and go. We have a responsibility and a command by Christ to live out that life and to follow His commands and to live our life to His service. That is our works. Abrahams actions justified his faith. If he wouldn’t have obeyed God and left his land, do you think that his faith would have been justified, even though he believed? Of course not. Would he have been justified if he would have believed God but not placed Issac on the altar? No way. What we do in response to the Sacrifice that Christ made for us is our work.

Look, I’ve never said believers don’t do works, but that works are not a prerequisite FOR salvation, as all of you are asserting. “Created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” is talking about the saved, the redeemed, the newly created in Christ Jesus through personal faith in Him, not talking donkeys.

Nobody has ever said that our works are a pre-requisite for salvation. We don’t work our way into God’s favor. What we are saying is that you can’t just “accept Jesus into your heart” and live your life as you please and think that your salvation is secure because you have an intellectual assention that Christ is the Son of God and died on the cross for us. That is not what Scripture teaches. We must live it out daily. Sacrificing ourselves to Christ…in every way. We must take care of the poor, we must feed the hungry, we must take care of those who can’t defend ourselves, we must shun evil in every area of our lives, me must be truthful to others and allow the Eucharist that we receive to transform us more and more into Christ

 

[apophasis]

DARichards:

Correct. The faith with which we believe that Christ is our atonement is a gift that is given to us through God. This is something that we didn’t and couldn’t earn it is a gift of God. Nothing required.

I would say, based on Paul’s teachings, salvation, justification and eternal life are all God’s gift to those who believe in Christ (see my posts for what it means to believe "in Christ:"Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Rom 3:23-24 “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."When the jailer in Philippi asked what he must do to be saved (Acts 16), Paul and his companions answered, “Believed in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved,” Now he didn’t tell him to pray that he might be “gifted faith,” but that he himself was to believe in Christ and he would be saved. Salvation is a “gift of God” to those who believe because the work required to secure their salvation was accomplished and completed by Christ Himself. What makes something a “gift” is that it was paid for by another. The price of the believer’s complete redemption was paid, in full, through Christ’s blood sacrifice on the cross (Col. 2:13-14).

God revealed it to us, we accepted (which is an action), and we were saved at that point.

Well, if you read the Book of Acts, you’ll see it was the message (word) of the cross that was taken to the world to be believed on. And when people believed the “word of the cross” (not considering it foolishness), they were at that moment “gifted” salvation, justification and eternal life.

However, our salvation is not “finalized” at that point. We then become disciples. We continue our salvation as we submit our lives to Christ and we hope to be finally saved on the day of His return.

If, my friend, your “salvation” is not, as you say, “finalized” at the time of personal belief, and you “hope to be finally saved” at His return, then you were never ACTUALLY saved at all. You were merely living out a life sentence on probation, hoping to be rewarded salvation based on your life-time achievement of discipleship performance. This unequivocally translates as “salvation by works” resulting, ultimately, in God justifying the “godly,” rather than as Paul teaches in Romans 4:5:Rom. 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Let’s be clear on this. The very act of Christ’s redemption, nobody else could accomplish.

No, it’s not “Christ’s redemption,” it’s YOUR and MY redemption nobody else could accomplish. Not even you.

We could not and cannot earn the gift of that Salvation.

Thank you for saying the gift of “salvation.” And I fully agree.

However, that gift is not a spiritual drive through where we pick it up and go. We have a responsibility and a command by Christ to live out that life and to follow His commands and to live our life to His service.

The problem is, based on this scenario, one never actually goes through the “spiritual drive-through,” but makes a spiritual “U-turn” before he even gets there. No true faith “in Christ” is actually exercised.

But it’s the “SAVED through faith” who are beseeched to now live out a life of service to Him. Not motivated by a kind of pseudo-salvation carrot, finalized (actualized) based on a life sentence of probationary, discipleship performance (a fancy way of saying “works”), but instead their genuine love for Him who redeemed them by His own blood.1 John 4:10 “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son {to be} the propitiation (complete satisfaction) for our sins.”

 

[apophasis]

]
Abrahams actions justified his faith.

Actually, Abraham’s actions demonstrated the faith by which God previously justified Him - even before he acted (see Gen. 15:6; cf. Rom. 4:2-3).

If he wouldn’t have obeyed God and left his land, do you think that his faith would have been justified, even though he believed?

It’s true, Abraham, by faith, left his land. But it wasn’t until Abraham actually “believed in the Lord” that He (God) reckoned it (his personal belief in Him) as righteousness.

There is a specific kind of faith (personal) by which God justifies a sinner: which is the “faith of Abraham” (see Rom. 4:16). One can do many things simply by “faith,” but only by one specific kind of faith does God justify a sinner.

Would he have been justified if he would have believed God but not placed Issac on the altar?

Abraham was justified by God even before Isaac was born (again, see Gen. 15:6).

What we do in response to the Sacrifice that Christ made for us is our work.

Yes. Absolutely. And it all makes sense when one is saved/justified by those works and not by divine grace through personal faith in Christ alone. I understand you completely (although neither Paul nor I agree with you). Now why don’t the others on this thread?

Nobody has ever said that our works are a pre-requisite for salvation.

But you actually do when you teach that salvation is “finalized” at the end of one’s life. What, DAR, is the basis for this finalization? What is the basis for it not being finalized at Christ’s return?

 

[mom2three]

I just find it funny that the father of Protestantism and the formulator of the justification by faith alone doctrine , Martin Luther believed not only in baptismal regeneration, but in infant baptism as well. How can he be so right on justification and so wrong on baptism? If he was wrong on baptism, how do you know he was wrong on justification?

Luther was MUCH more Catholic than most Protestants care to recognize… Luther even prayed the rosary, believed in Mary’s life-long virginity, that Christ’s brothers were actually cousins (as Catholics and early Christians believed), and even in the Immaculate Conception

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM

 

[DARichards]

The very definition of justification is the process of which we has humans are made right with God. If this doesn’t happen, then God doesn’t preserve His honor and holiness. Having said that, what is the way by which we are justified. We know that never in any of Paul’s writings did he couple the word “faith” and “alone”. If this is true, what about Rom 3:28. Being “justified apart from the law” is not the same as being justified by “faith alone.” Faith alone would mean absolutely nothing else. That it is the ONLY means to be made right with God. Being “justified apart from the works of the law” means quite frankly that the works of the Old Testament, the Torah, are inadequate for justification. Paul in Romans is contrasting the Mosaic code of legal justice to our justice from faith. Galations 3:12 says: “But the law is not from faith; rather the one who does those things will live in them.” Romans 2:13 says**“It is not the hearers of the Law who have been justified before god, but the doers of the Law will be justified.” **Romans 2:7 says that “God will render to each man according to his works: eternal life to those who, dedicating themselves with perseverance to good works, seek glory, honor and immortality…glory, honor, and peace to all who do good, to the Jew first and the Gentile.”

The Jews were trying to seek their justification from the Law. Paul was telling them that that was impossible. That is why in Galatians 2 he said: “If the Law (Torah) can justify us, there is no point in the death of Christ.”

By no means am I promoting the fact that we can be justified soley on the matter of our works. What I am saying is that our justification by God is a real and a true justification. God doesn’t just pronounce us righteous, but He literally and truly makes us righteous.

Look at these Scriptures:

Romans 2:6-8

5
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
who will repay everyone according to his works:
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

James 2:22-26

22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
**For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. **

Matthew 16: 26-27

26
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

 

[DARichards]

Matthew 7:19-21

Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So by their fruits you will know them.
21
"**Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **

Matthew 25: 31-46

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen,** I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me**.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." **
**
Romans 2:5-11

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
who will repay everyone according to his works:
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9
Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11
There is no partiality with God.

Revelation 2:23

23
I will also put her children to death. Thus shall all the churches come to know that I am the searcher of hearts and minds and that I will give each of you what your works deserve
Revelation 20: 11-15

11
Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.
12
I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.
13
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. **All the dead were judged according to their deeds. **14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.
15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

To say that faith and works can be separated is in direct contradiction of what Scripture actually teaches. What we do has a tremendous importanct and plays a role in our Salvation. We must work out our faith in our every day lives. It must serve others, not just ourselves. This is our justification.

 

[DARichards]

Matthew 15:7-9

7
Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy about you when he said:
8
**‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; **
9
in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’"

Matthew 16:24-27

24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
26
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27
22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

 

[apophasis]

The very definition of justification is the process of which we has humans are made right with God.

I agree that divine justification makes men “right” with God, and more specifically, righteous before God. But I disagree, as does Paul, that it’s a “process”:"…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23-24).

If this doesn’t happen, then God doesn’t preserve His honor and holiness.

Not true. God justifying the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5) is based totally on “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” The substitutionary sin-sacrifice of His own Son. If He justified the “ungodly” on any other basis, i.e., works of any kind, then He would compromise His holiness. That’s why it (justification) is not a “process;” something that is divinely determined at the end of one’s life based on one’s performance. The justified do not live out their lives on probation.

If this is true, what about Rom 3:28. Being “justified apart from the law” is not the same as being justified by “faith alone.”

There is no definite article here. Paul says a man is justified BY FAITH, apart from works of law, meaning the principle of law., not necessarily the Mosaic Law. The *principle of law * is commandment keeping. God justifies the ungodly by faith in Christ alone, apart from keeping commandments (works of any kind). The divine basis for this justification by faith is “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” You fail to understand the profound significance of the cross.

All the verses you quoted must be understood in their proper context and in light of the cross of Christ.

 

[DARichards]

I agree that divine justification makes men “right” with God, and more specifically, righteous before God. But I disagree, as does Paul, that it’s a “process”:"…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23-24).Not true. God justifying the “ungodly” (Rom. 4:5) is based totally on “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” The substitutionary sin-sacrifice of His own Son.

Clarifying my last statement. What we know is that God is a Holy and Perfect God. We are not. We are God’s creation and He wants us to spend an eternity with Him. We are not able to do that in our present state. If God did allow that, THAT is what would compromise His honor and holiness. I think that we can both agree on that. The question here is the process by which that is done. The Catholic Church would say that our justification is a literal making holy and being made right which starts here in our Christian life and is perfected in Heaven. The Reformed/Protestant position would be that our unrighteousness is “cloaked” or covered until we are with Christ. This is the difference.

If He justified the “ungodly” on any other basis, i.e., works of any kind, then He would compromise His holiness. That’s why it (justification) is not a “process;” something that is divinely determined at the end of one’s life based on one’s performance. The justified do not live out their lives on probation.

Here is a couple of analogies (understanding that all analogies ultimately fall apart when describing God)

There are two people who are basically “good” people. Both people follow the “commands of Christ”: feeding the poor, aiding the innocent, taking care of widows, etc. The only difference is that one is a Christian and one is an agnostic/athiest and wants nothing to do with Christ or God. Total rejection. The agnostic is not made right because of what they have done. What they have done is worthless because it was done on their own merit outside of a faith of Christ. On the other hand, the Christian has obeyed the commands of Christ and lived their life to the best of their ability to please Christ and to spread His Kingdom here. The actions that they have done have been a “completion of their faith” as in James 2.

Another analogy. One is in church. He goes forward to an “altar call” and accepts “Christ as His Savior” knowing full well that Christ died for His sins. He joins the Church, is giving because that is what he is supposed to do. However, he continues his affair with his secretary during the afternoons, and continues in his theft from his company, and the gossip about his best friend. Is this person right with God…NO!! His “faith” ,even though he is aware of the saving power of Christ ,has not been allowed to cleanse him from evil and live the life which Christ intended. This would definetly put him much more in a culpable situation.

This enitre debate is why Luther called the epistle of James and “epistle of straw” and wanted it taken out of the Canon as well. James is very clear that “we are not justified by our faith alone…”

There is no definite article here.

This is a direct quote from the New American Bible
28
For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

New International Version
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law

King James Version

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

American Standard Version

28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law

Todays New International Version

28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

La Bible du Semeur

28 Voici donc ce que nous affirmons: l’homme est déclaré juste par la foi sans qu’il ait à accomplir les œuvres qu’exige la Loi.

 

[DARichards]

Paul says a man is justified BY FAITH, apart from works of law, meaning the principle of law., not necessarily the Mosaic Law. The *principle of law * is commandment keeping.

This is not correct at all and not at all in the context of Romans or Galatians! The fact is that Paul was writing to Judaizers who were coming into the Christian Church and trying to apply the Law, the Torah to the Christians along with the “works of the Law”, circumcision. To say otherwise is a neglect of the historical situation in which the letters were written.

God justifies the ungodly by faith in Christ alone, apart from keeping commandments (works of any kind).

This concept directly contradicts Christ himself. Christ said in John 14:23-24
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

Our justification begins with our faith which is a gift. Our Lord chooses to open our eyes to him, that is an unmerited favor that we can not earn. At that point, we have a choice to continue in obedience.

The divine basis for this justification by faith is “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” You fail to understand the profound significance of the cross.

To say that I, as a Catholic fail to understand the significance of the Cross is just arrogant and unfounded. Our entire worship focuses upon the Sacrifice of Christ as our onlymeans of salvation.
There was only one way for us as men to obtain salvation. That was through the death of Christ on the Cross. God himself became man (His creation). As man and God, the ultimate Sacrifice was made to re-unite all men with the Father. This is a Sacrifice which is an eternal, ongoing Sacrifice, ever before the Father as a propitiation of our sins.

All the verses you quoted must be understood in their proper context and in light of the cross of Christ.

Your understanding of these verses comes through your Protestant paradigm, which consequently is only 5oo years old, prior to that, the Christian Church didn’t embrace the Sola Fide doctrine, this is a fairly new theology…and not Scriptural.

St. Augustine said: “How speedily are the prayers of people who do good works heard! For it is precisely in fasting, alms, deeds and prayer that our righteousness in this life consists.”

St. John Shrysostom said in AD 347: And why did [God] choose us? ‘That we should be holy and blameless before Him.’ So that you may not suppose, when you hear that He chose us, that faith alone is sufficient, he goes on to refer to manner of life. This, he says, is the reason and the purpose of his choice–that we should be holy and blameless…Being holy is a matter of sharing in faith; being blameless is a matter of living an irreproachable life (Homilies on Ephesians, 1, 1-2)

 

[Philthy]

Neither Peter or any of His disciples had saving faith at that time. None believed, much less comprehended, that He must endure the cross for their full redemption. Neither did His mother. It wasn’t until AFTER His bodily resurrection that any of them finally understood and believed “in Him” unto salvation. Not till then did they understand and believe “the word of the cross.” And it was this “word of the cross” that they took to the world to be personally believed for salvation.

Do you think Simeon had such faith?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Do you think Simeon had such faith?

So apparently about 90% of Mt,Mk, Lk & Jn are irrelevant according to apophasis? What about all those times Jesus says “your faith has saved you”?

 

[JOE_OBERR]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Mom2three:

The best way to answer such a claim is by pointing out that any doctrine, such as how salvation is achieved or what the definition of faith is, are not derived from one’s personal guesswork on Scripture verses but rather come from the gospel as preached by Jesus and the apostles. Scripture does not interpret itself nor does it force its explanation on anyone which is why Jesus orally taught his gospel and commanded the apostles to do the same, “Preach the gospel to all men…”, St. Paul, who preached the gospel also, said “faith comes by hearing”.

They learned this gospel from Jesus himself. And since no book of the bible claims to summarize the gospel as preached by Jesus, Sts Paul, Peter & the other apostles, it is futile to try to figure out what this gospel is that St. Paul et al preached by reading scripture alone. Jesus did not tell the apostles to “go out and write”, but to preach, orally.

Long before the canon of scripture was finally settled in the 390’s, the early bible christians, who were all Catholic, except for the heretics, believed that faith was defined as believing everything that Jesus said, because that is what the apostles, including St. Paul, taught in the gospel they preached.

Nor is the bible it clear on any single point, which is why the Church Jesus founded has one set of beliefs (the gospel) while the non-catholic christians’ beliefs are all over the map, so to speak, with over 20,000 different denominations (according to the Protestant “World Christian Encyclopedia” as well as the U.N.). Protestants have no consensus on any doctrinal point because they their sole source of belief is the bible, which is a misuse of it.

continued…