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- Status
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DARichards
Guest
O.K. Apop, what is the difference between this that you say…
You are saying that a “true faith” or a “saving faith” will produce works of righteousness that will save(justify) you. You are saying that if your faith doesn’t produce, then it is not a “true” or “saving” (justifying) faith and is dead.
I am saying that in no way does works justify you on their own. I have said that over and over. Without the faith, they are useless. When you have faith and choose to obey, then you are justified.
The Same Thing!!! What is the difference??:clapping: :clapping:
and this that I say…
Notice, we are saying the same thing!!!.
You are saying that a “true faith” or a “saving faith” will produce works of righteousness that will save(justify) you. You are saying that if your faith doesn’t produce, then it is not a “true” or “saving” (justifying) faith and is dead.
I am saying that in no way does works justify you on their own. I have said that over and over. Without the faith, they are useless. When you have faith and choose to obey, then you are justified.
The Same Thing!!! What is the difference??:clapping: :clapping:
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apophasis
Guest
You put a twist on it, and that’s where we part, and you part from Scripture. The “works” which are done “in faith,” do not, nor cannot, justify anyone. According to God’s Word, He Himself justifies the ungodly by FAITH alone.“But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom GOD RECKONS righteousness APART from works” (Rom. 4:5-6).God reckons the believer’s faith as righteousness, not his works. Even Abraham’s FAITH was reckoned to him as righteousness totally apart from subsequent works (Gen. 15:6): He (Abraham) believed in the Lord; and He (God) reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness.
Abraham believed the word of the Lord concerning his descendants (Gen. 15:5) , and it was Abraham’s belief in His word that God reckoned it to him as righteousness. Abraham never stopped believing in God’s word. Even to the extent that he was willing to offer up his only son, Isaac, to sacrifice. Why? Because he believed in God’s word when He said, many years before, that his descendants would be through Isaac. Hence, he reasoned in his mind, based on his faith in God’s Word, that He would raise Isaac from the dead (Heb. 11:17-19). All as a type of Christ Himself.
The Scriptures that reveal salvation, this side of the cross, clearly state that neither salvation or justification are a result of works, but based solely on faith. Faith in the “word of the cross.”
But according to the Scriptures, Abraham was justified when He believed God’s Word - long before the attempted sacrifice of Isaac.
You who want to ADD works I would ask as James does, "Can THAT faith save you?."Rom. 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."The kind of faith that saves, according to God’s Word, is the faith that trusts in His Word alone, and rests in no works of their own (only Christ’s). The faithful believe that God HAS reckoned them righteous “APART from works,” as His Word clearly states. They believe His Word. And it’s THAT belief (faith in His Word) by which God justifies the ungodly.
Does (as the O.P. asks) Romans four preach sola fide? Yes, Unequivocally. That’s Paul message to a dying world. You who say, no, and ADD works, refuse to believe God’s Word.
Now I ask, "can THAT “faith” save you? Does God justify according to THAT kind of faith? A disbelief in what He has clearly stated in His Word? Is that even “faith” at all?
You see, DAR, if you refuse to trust God’s Word regarding salvation and justification, then what, or who, is your “faith” actually in?
As far back as Abraham (even Abel) God has justified the one who believes in Him through His Word. It was disbelief in His Word that got Adam, along with all his descendants, into the mess we’re in now. What God asks of Adam’s fallen posterity is to do what Adam did not. Believe His Word. Which is the equivalent to belief in Him - and He reckons it, their faith, to them as righteousness. Just like Abraham.
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HailMary
Guest
apophasis, could you please what you understand “faith” to be?
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mom2three
Guest
Apop -
How long are you going to ignore the Scriptures you claim to hold true to?
James 2:24
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and **not by faith alone. **
Faith is primary… but you cannot ignore the rest of Scripture… which you are doing when you say “faith alone”… faith is ESSENTIAL, but “alone”, it is meaningless. The Bible is SO clear on that…
1 Corinth 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
How long are you going to ignore the Scriptures you claim to hold true to?
James 2:24
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and **not by faith alone. **
Faith is primary… but you cannot ignore the rest of Scripture… which you are doing when you say “faith alone”… faith is ESSENTIAL, but “alone”, it is meaningless. The Bible is SO clear on that…
1 Corinth 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
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DARichards
Guest
Apop, this is where we do part. However, it is not me parting from Scripture. It is me parting with ***your interpretation *of Scripture. And neither of us are going to budge on this issue.:banghead: :banghead: This is the exact reason why there are over 8,ooo (conservatively speaking) Protestant denominations. The fact is that you are basing your interpretations on what you believe that Scripture says. There is nobody to tell you what you whether what you believe is orthodox or correct, because you are using the Scripture as your Sole basis for faith. We can open up this can of worms on another thread, however, as I said earlier in this thread, your position on “Sola Fide” was for all intents and purposes non-existent prior to the Reformation. As a Catholic I believe that I am not wise or full of enough wisdom to interpret the orginal Scriptures by my self (2 Peter 1: 20-21)
** 20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,
21for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God
The fathers of the Christian Church (Ignatius, Polycarp, etc) who were discipled by the Apostle John didn’t agree with this position at all!! So the two options are that they were wrong, or you are wrong. Which is it???
I choose and always will choose the interpretation of those who were closest to our Lord and who were discipled by the Apostles entrusted with the Gospel by our Lord.
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CRW
Guest
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apophasis
Guest
This is a very good question. Faith is a personal trust in God’s Word regarding the Person of Jesus Christ and His substitutionary, sacificial work, for us, on the cross. It’s what Paul calls “the word of the cross” (1 Cor. 1:18). The “power of God” to save those who believe it.
“The word of the cross,” HM, is about HIS work, not our’s. It’s believing in what He has done, for us, not what we must do for Him.
I asked this question earlier on this thread of Catholics and was directed to a web site which stated ALL the things I must do, and not one word of what Christ HAS DONE. When I challenged this, the response was, “that’s a given.”
No, it’s not “a given,” but in reality it’s nonexistent in the so-called “faith” of the one who believes his works divinely determine the status of his salvation at the end of his life. In direct opposition to Paul’s didactic teaching on justification:Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, **his faith **is credited as righteousness,"And contrary to what the Lord Himself has said:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."And John writes:1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.”
1 John 5:20 “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
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apophasis
Guest
Your question to me is like asking Paul to ignore his own words and submit to what you think James is saying. In order to understand James, you must FIRST comprehend Paul’s teachings on salvation/justification. You must first comprehend Paul’s “word of the cross.”
Now the question of this thread is, “Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?” The answer is YES:Rom. 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Paul is very, very clear in Roman four, and you can’t handle it (much less accept it). But what Paul wrote to the church at Rome in this chapter IS the gospel message regarding salvation. That God actually justifies the one who believes His Word, apart from works, is totally unacceptable to the one who does not understand “the word of the cross.”
Divine salvation/justification is never rewarded as something that is “due.” But freely given by divine “favor,” to the one who does not work but believes (Rom. 3:23-24).
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happygal
Guest
Hi St Eric
As a protestant i believe in faith without work is dead, just like work without faith is also dead. But how many time can individual really do thing by faith for example if God ask you to give all your money to the poor , however the money is all we have to feed ourselves, so how many of us can give follow God’s instruction to really gives all our money right!!! But let alone God’s ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, and without any doubt Abraham do it. So this is faith with work!!!
In summary we put our faith lst in carrying our work, everything we do shall be faith come lst !!!
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mom2three
Guest
Where does it say we must FIRST comprehend Paul’s teaching? I believe it’s more accurate to look at Paul and James together. Paul is speaking of works of the LAW - James is speaking of works of faith… These are REQUIRED of us to have a saving faith and these are the “works” that Catholics are speaking of. Catholics do not believe that our own works (by themselves) save us. Our faith saves us - but our works (love etc.) reflect a saving faith and you cannot separate the two.
I completely disagree. This is what you think it says…
The passage states that his faith was credited as righteousness but it does NOT state his faith ALONE “saved” him… James also referred to Abraham… and indicated that his obedience (works) made his faith complete.
James 2:21-22
Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was **made complete **by what he did.
“apart from works” (above) is talking about the works of the law… and James states we are justified by works (of faith) and NOT BY FAITH ALONE! You are ignoring the fact that the Bible states not by faith alone. Period. This does not contradict Paul at all since we are not talking about the same kind of works.
Catholics believe that you must be obedient to God, that you must love others, that you must be a servant… These are what we consider to be “works”. Do you not agree that you, as a Christian and believer in Christ’s work on the cross, must respond this way in order to be saved? Can we have faith, commit a bunch of sins we’re not repentent for and still have a saving faith?
I agree… we cannot **earn **our salvation. It is a gift to us… Christ completed all that needed to be completed for our salvation on the cross. Catholics do not believe that we EARN our salvation… we must understand that we are called to live a lifestyle pleasing to God in order to have a saving faith. The Bible is constantly telling us to live a holy life… He asked us to “come” and “follow him” and “be perfect”.
We are called to do more than simply have faith… Faith is only saving if we follow him and his commands to love, be charitable and serve… these are the “works” we’re talking about… not the works of the law that Paul is speaking of… not to be like the Pharisees.
Matthew 5:47-48
And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Gal 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value.<–works of the law] The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. <–works of faith that Catholics believe are necessary for a saving faith - like James states]
It’s essential as Christians that we look at the whole Bible… Paul and James do not contradict each other and they should be considered together. One does not precede the other or make the other null. Faith in Christ and his work on the cross is ESSENTIAL to salvation. No one will be saved without it.
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mikeledes
Guest
Let’s get something straight here. We do NOT earn justification. When we are first justified by grace, nothing preceding that earned that justification. Moreover, that grace of justification that we initially receive is sufficient for salvation. In other words, if I were to die immediately after being justified, then I would definitely be going to heaven. So it is not something incomplete. However, we grow in that righteousness communicated to us in justification by God’s grace by having a faith working through love, love of God and love of neighbor. So when it talks about Abraham being justified in James 2 when he offered his son Isaac, it is not a separate justification from the one he first received through faith several chapters earlier. Rather, it is a continuation, reaffirmation, and growth in that rigteousness he first received through faith. And how did he grow in that justification or rigteousness? By obedience to God. Once we are justified, we can grow in that justification through obedience to God. And what does obedience to God entail? LOVE!!! And how is love expressed? Through GOOD WORKS! So once we receive that rigteousness that comes from God, we must maintain and grow in that rigteousness by doing good. That’s what Catholics mean when we say that justification is a continuous process. Again, this does not mean that when we are initially justified, that that justification is not sufficient and we somehow must add to it through our works. For example, a one room house is sufficient for protecting us from rain or snow. Does that mean that we cannot have a house with more rooms? Similarly, our initial justification is sufficient for salvation. But we now have the obligation to maintain and grow in that justification by having faith working through love. Otherwise, we risk losing it.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
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heisenburg
Guest
May have been mentioned already… but isnt Paul talking about the Levitical works of the law? Thus, the statement a man that does not do the works (leviticval works) but believes in christ is rieghteous.
i mean, all versus previous and after, Paul is refering to the OLD law and th Levitical Works…
I think thats pretty much a statement that 1) is support by the bible and 2) support by catholics and protestants alike…
Just a thought
In Christ
i mean, all versus previous and after, Paul is refering to the OLD law and th Levitical Works…
I think thats pretty much a statement that 1) is support by the bible and 2) support by catholics and protestants alike…
Just a thought
In Christ
M
mikeledes
Guest
Apophasis, please answer the question I have been posing throughout my posts. Why is it when the rich man asks Jesus “what good thing shall I do that i may have eternal life,”, Jesus answers "But if you want to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS? Why didn’t He simply say, have faith and your faith will save you? Who can explain and understand the Gospel message better than Christ Himself? Moreover, why is it that Romans 2:6 says that God will render “each one according to their deeds”, and then it says in verse 7 that God will give **eternal life **to "those who by **patient continuance in doing good **seek for glory, honor and immortality? Please address these verses.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
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HailMary
Guest
KEY VERSUS ON THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE KEYS AND AUTHORITY
**1. ISAIAH 22: 20-22 **
“On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;
I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
2. MATTHEW 16:17-19
“Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
3. REVELATIONS 3:7
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this…”
MORE ON AUTHORITY
**4. MATTHEW 18:15-18 **
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church <note the emphasis on the Church, and that it is the last authority>, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
SOLA SCRIPTURA IS FALSE
5. 2 PETER 3:16-17 – WITHOUT THE CHURCH TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE PROPERLY WE MAY DISTORT IT TO “OUR OWN DESTRUCTION” BECAUSE CERTAIN PARTS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND:
“speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. “
6. 1 TIMOTHY 3:15 – THE CHURCH IS THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
**
7. JOHN 14:16 – JESUS PROMISED HIS APOSTLES THAT HE WOULD BE WITH THEM**
“The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.”
8. LUKE 10:16 – JESUS TELL US TO LISTEN TO HIS APPOINTED TEACHERS
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
9. JOHN 21:15-17 – JESUS, THE GOOD SHEPARD, COMMANDS PETER TO “FEED HIS LAMBS”, INDICATING THAT NOW, WHILE JESUS IS AWAY, PETER, AND HIS SUCCESSORS WILL BE THE SHEPARDS OF CHRISTS FLOCK.
“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” said to him, "Feed my sheep.”
have you ever stopped and thought about how tough of a command that was? Do you really think anyone could successfully “feed” ALL His sheep without the gift of infallibility [recall the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven]?
Only one Church has been be unified throughout the ages and has kept the SACRED TRADITIONS OF THE APOSTLES [2 Thess. 2:14-15]. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has survived with continuity since Apostolic and Biblical times.
Brothers and sisters, these are some points to consider. Please be mindful that you will never change a Catholics mind unless the very strong scriptural evidence, like some of the above passages, can be addressed.
God Bless
**1. ISAIAH 22: 20-22 **
“On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;
I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.”
2. MATTHEW 16:17-19
“Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
3. REVELATIONS 3:7
"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this…”
MORE ON AUTHORITY
**4. MATTHEW 18:15-18 **
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church <note the emphasis on the Church, and that it is the last authority>, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
SOLA SCRIPTURA IS FALSE
5. 2 PETER 3:16-17 – WITHOUT THE CHURCH TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE PROPERLY WE MAY DISTORT IT TO “OUR OWN DESTRUCTION” BECAUSE CERTAIN PARTS ARE DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND:
“speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. “
6. 1 TIMOTHY 3:15 – THE CHURCH IS THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.”
**
7. JOHN 14:16 – JESUS PROMISED HIS APOSTLES THAT HE WOULD BE WITH THEM**
“The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.”
8. LUKE 10:16 – JESUS TELL US TO LISTEN TO HIS APPOINTED TEACHERS
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
9. JOHN 21:15-17 – JESUS, THE GOOD SHEPARD, COMMANDS PETER TO “FEED HIS LAMBS”, INDICATING THAT NOW, WHILE JESUS IS AWAY, PETER, AND HIS SUCCESSORS WILL BE THE SHEPARDS OF CHRISTS FLOCK.
“When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” said to him, "Feed my sheep.”
have you ever stopped and thought about how tough of a command that was? Do you really think anyone could successfully “feed” ALL His sheep without the gift of infallibility [recall the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven]?
Only one Church has been be unified throughout the ages and has kept the SACRED TRADITIONS OF THE APOSTLES [2 Thess. 2:14-15]. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has survived with continuity since Apostolic and Biblical times.
Brothers and sisters, these are some points to consider. Please be mindful that you will never change a Catholics mind unless the very strong scriptural evidence, like some of the above passages, can be addressed.
God Bless
A
apophasis
Guest
Two fundamental problems with your analogy, Michael:
1. Scripture nowhere talks about “intitial” justification. That’s a word Catholicism ADDS to the doctrine. There is no such concept in Scripture.
**
2.** James does not say Abraham’s justification grew or increased by works, but it was his FAITH that was “perfected” (i.e., matured) by his works (Ja. 2:22). The same faith by which God justified him when he (Abraham) believed in the Lord back in Gen. 15:6.
A
apophasis
Guest
Because Jesus was speaking to a Jew, prior to the cross, who was under the Law as a rule of life. Not only was this rich man, as a Jew, bound to the Law, but he relied upon that Law for righteousness. But, ulitmately, this rich man trusted in his riches and was not willing to part with them, nor follow Christ. Jesus exposed his true heart.
Salvation through faith in Christ alone could not yet be preached because He (Christ) had not yet gone to the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice for the world’s sins. Not even the rich man’s.
Read Rom. 7:1-6 where Paul teaches that the Jew is no longer bound to the Law through faith in Christ - this side of the cross. The believing Jew is made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, that he might be joined to Another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that he might bear fruit for God (vs. 4). Through faith in Christ, this side of the cross, he (the believing Jew) has been released from the Law, having died to that to which he was bound, so that he now serves in newness of Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (written commandments which could only condemn him, read 2 Cor. 3:6-11).
Paul. It was what he was sent to do by Christ Himself. The “Gospel” message is based on spiritual reality “this side of the cross.” These post-cross truths were given to the Apostles - especially Paul.
In Romans chapter two Paul is building his case for what he concludes in chapters three and four: NONE are righteous, no not one. But all are justified as a gift through faith in Christ alone - apart from works. What he says in 2:6 is true, but applies only to those who are first justified through faith in Christ alone. You must understand chapter two IN THE CONTEXT of chapters three and four. Please read them!!! They’re written to your church.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Apophasis, you argue that in the Bible there is no reference to initial justification in the Bible. You’re right! You don’t find the term “initial justification” in Scripture. Neither do you find the words Trinity, Incarnation, or Bible in the Bible. However, we use these terms to better understand and explain Christian doctrines. We do find the phrase faith alone in the Bible. It’s in James 2:24,
“You see then that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by FAITH ONLY”
Can you please explain to me when are we justified by works, as it clearly states in this verse? If Abraham was justfied by faith alone, then why is it that its says on verse 21 "Was not our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? If Abraham was justified by faith alone, why does he say that he was justified by HIS WORK, that is, the sacrifice of Isaac? Moreover, it says in verse 25 that Rahab was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. If justification is by FAITH ALONE, then why talk about people being justfied by their works. At most, James seems to be saying in verses 22 and 24 that Faith and Works WORK TOGETHER in justification.
We know that Romans 4 makes it clear that nothing preceding justification, whether faith or works, can EARN justification. That Abraham was first communicated God righteousness through faith before he was circumsized and BEFORE he almost sacrificed his son Isaac. And yet James 2:21 indicates that “Abraham our faither was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.” The work that is being referred to is clearly the sacrifice of Isaac and James clearly point out that Abraham was justified by that work (key words being "justified…when.) That is the plain meaning of the text. Then he clarifies that in that instance, both faith and works were working together and faith was completed by the work. He finishes by saying that man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
We know that Abraham was justified by faith several chapters earlier. But know James points to another justification in verse 21 (one that occurs later in Genesis). However, he makes it clear in verse 23 that this justification is simply a continuation of when he was first justified. In other words, A PROCESS.
Regarding your response to Romans 2, there are several verses in the Bible that say that God will render to everyone according to THEIR works. Revelation 22;12 and 14 state:
And behold, I am coming quickly, amd my reward is with me, to give to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORK
"Blessed are those who do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (i.e. heavenly jerusalem).
God Bless,
Michael
“You see then that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT by FAITH ONLY”
Can you please explain to me when are we justified by works, as it clearly states in this verse? If Abraham was justfied by faith alone, then why is it that its says on verse 21 "Was not our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? If Abraham was justified by faith alone, why does he say that he was justified by HIS WORK, that is, the sacrifice of Isaac? Moreover, it says in verse 25 that Rahab was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. If justification is by FAITH ALONE, then why talk about people being justfied by their works. At most, James seems to be saying in verses 22 and 24 that Faith and Works WORK TOGETHER in justification.
We know that Romans 4 makes it clear that nothing preceding justification, whether faith or works, can EARN justification. That Abraham was first communicated God righteousness through faith before he was circumsized and BEFORE he almost sacrificed his son Isaac. And yet James 2:21 indicates that “Abraham our faither was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar.” The work that is being referred to is clearly the sacrifice of Isaac and James clearly point out that Abraham was justified by that work (key words being "justified…when.) That is the plain meaning of the text. Then he clarifies that in that instance, both faith and works were working together and faith was completed by the work. He finishes by saying that man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
We know that Abraham was justified by faith several chapters earlier. But know James points to another justification in verse 21 (one that occurs later in Genesis). However, he makes it clear in verse 23 that this justification is simply a continuation of when he was first justified. In other words, A PROCESS.
Regarding your response to Romans 2, there are several verses in the Bible that say that God will render to everyone according to THEIR works. Revelation 22;12 and 14 state:
And behold, I am coming quickly, amd my reward is with me, to give to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORK
"Blessed are those who do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (i.e. heavenly jerusalem).
God Bless,
Michael
A
apophasis
Guest
The word “initial” is used by your church as a qualifier, a modifier. A word like “Trinity” codifies what the Bible itself actually reveals about God. That is not the case with your added word “initial.” Paul attaches no restriction or qualifier on his doctrine of justification when he writes:Rom. 3:23 "…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"Justification being a divine gift based on the finished, redemptive work of Jesus Christ. None of our own.
Nor does Paul put a qualifier on justification when he writes:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”
Faith in Christ alone is blatant throughout the Epistles. Salvation/justification through faith in Christ alone. He being the Object of salvation faith.
This is all said in the CONTEXT of James 2:14 where James is refuting a “said” faith. A “faith” without substance. And in verse 18 where he writes, “SHOW ME your faith without works…” James, in context, is not instructing his readers on HOW Abraham was justified, but that his FAITH was working with his works (vs.22), and thus “fulfilling” the Scripture that revealed to them when Abraham, back in Gen. 15:6, believed God and it (his faith) was reckoned to him (by God) as righteousness. His works reflected the faith by which God had justified him. And only in this restricted, contextual sense, then, does James say Abraham was justified by his works. His works reflected the faith by which God HAD justified him many years prior.
For the actual justification, James takes his readers BACK to Gen. 15:6 (Ja. 2:23). He must, because if you read Gen. 22, where he attempts to offer up Isaac, nowhere does it state that at that time God reckoned it,* i.e.*, his willingness to offer up his son, to Abraham as righteousness. There is only ONE place where this is stated; only one place where this divine justification occurred; that being Gen. 15:6, when Abraham first believed God.
Sorry, but you totally misinterpret James. But I understand why. You must, or it contradicts the teachings of your church
That’s not what Paul says in Rom. 4:Rom 4:5-6 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
ivine justification is gifted to the man who BELIEVES God. The Object of belief being Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on the cross (Rom. 3:24).Michael, the object of true Christian faith is Christ Himself - His Person and work on your behalf. It’s faith in Him alone by which God justifies the UNGODLY. If, as Paul clearly states, God justifies the UNGODLY through faith (Rom. 4:5), then obviously works are not, nor cannot be, involved. Otherwise it’s the “godly” whom He justifies, not the ungodly.
The idea of “initial” justification maintained by works is totally foreign to Scripture. As Paul clearly states:Rom. 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God."Elsewhere he writes:Eph. 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."As you can see, Paul is quite consistent in his theology. He gives absolutely no hint of either an “initial” justification or salvation.
And each one MUST be understood in their proper context and in light of the cross of Christ.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I will say more later since I do not have the time now. But Apophasis, can you please point where in Scripture does it says justification by faith alone. The alone is a modifier added by your church that is not found in scripture. I have more to say, but can’t say it now.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
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