HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mom2three]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."**

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.**

 

[VociMike]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

** 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.** 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

This is the key point to understand. Catholics most certainly don’t understand works as obligating God to save us. We don’t believe that any works we do earns us our salvation. We do believe that it is a gift freely given by God. But a gift that is given must also be received. It is through our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.

And never forget, “faith without works is dead”. How sola Fide can exist in the face of that clear pronouncement is a tribute (?) to the nimbleness of the human mind.

 

[elvisman]

This is the key point to understand. Catholics most certainly don’t understand works as obligating God to save us. We don’t believe that any works we do earns us our salvation. We do believe that it is a gift freely given by God. But a gift that is given must also be received. It is through our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.

And never forget, “faith without works is dead”. How sola Fide can exist in the face of that clear pronouncement is a tribute (?) to the nimbleness of the human mind.

EXCELLENT point, VociMike.
I would also add that the only place in the bible where “faith alone” appears in James 2:24 where he states:
"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Some Protestants love to take 1 verse here and another there to prove (or rationalize) their point, instead of taking all of scripture in context.

---

 

[santaro75]

if you want to be really confused. read Jame’s comments on the very same event! james2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.18Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[apophasis]

This is the key point to understand. Catholics most certainly don’t understand works as obligating God to save us. We don’t believe that any works we do earns us our salvation. We do believe that it is a gift freely given by God. But a gift that is given must also be received. It is through our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.

And never forget, “faith without works is dead”. How sola Fide can exist in the face of that clear pronouncement is a tribute (?) to the nimbleness of the human mind.

Yet if you look at Catholic soteriology as a whole, the act of baptism saves you; an act of a particular sin (mortal) un-saves you; and the act of a particular sacrament then saves you again.

So let me ask you, what does the “faith” of a Catholic rest in? What is the content of the Catholic faith that saves apart from works as Paul teaches in Romans four and Ephesians two?

 

[santaro75]

Yet if you look at Catholic soteriology as a whole, the act of baptism saves you; an act of a particular sin (mortal) un-saves you; and the act of a particular sacrament then saves you again.

So let me ask you, what does the “faith” of a Catholic rest in? What is the content of the Catholic faith that saves apart from works as Paul teaches in Romans four and Ephesians two?

there is always a work associated with the faith you are talking about. That is what James was speaking of. Yes the act is initiated by the faith. Just like your faith leads you to baptism, your faith leads you to repentence in the confessional.

If you weren’t sorry for your sin you would probably be hard pressed to tell your pastor the awful things you do.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. a coin with one side has no redemptive value

 

[gelsbern]

Yet if you look at Catholic soteriology as a whole, the act of baptism saves you; an act of a particular sin (mortal) un-saves you; and the act of a particular sacrament then saves you again.

So let me ask you, what does the “faith” of a Catholic rest in? What is the content of the Catholic faith that saves apart from works as Paul teaches in Romans four and Ephesians two?

The acts you describe are the result of our faith in the promises of God. Jesus promised the cleansing of sins for the act of baptism, Jesus promised the forgiveness of sins for the act of confession, so it is a combination, our acts (works) are based upon our faith in the promises and commandments of our Lord.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Yet if you look at Catholic soteriology as a whole, the act of baptism saves you; an act of a particular sin (mortal) un-saves you; and the act of a particular sacrament then saves you again.

So let me ask you, what does the “faith” of a Catholic rest in? What is the content of the Catholic faith that saves apart from works as Paul teaches in Romans four and Ephesians two?

Dear apaphasis

Is is it not your belief that it is the *act *of faith that saves us?

I will let the Catholic Church speak for itself in the matter:

“And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.” Council of Trent

Justification is by faith, not works. That is a very Scriptural position. Because it is very a Scriptual position It is also a very Catholic one as well.

With that being said I would say that a minimum of two works is required. 1)Believe and 2) repent.

God Bless

 

[John_Henry]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."**

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.**
The key to understanding St. Paul’s opposition of “faith” and “works of the Law” is to understand what are “works of the Law” and why he is saying it. The “works of the Law” he is speaking of are the works of the Mosaic Law. This can be seen from the context, in which he is specifically speaking of things like circumcision. In opposing “faith” and “works of the Law” as means of justification, he is essentially saying that Christians do not need to submit to the Mosaic Law (i.e., become Jews) to be saved. And he is saying that because there was much controversy in the 1st century Church about that issue (cf. Acts 15). Christians are justified by faith, and Paul backs that up by referring to Abraham.

This is further corroborated within the verse you quoted by noting that the “boasting” that is mentioned is not boasting before God of our good works in order to be justified (i.e., verse 2 “Not before God”). The boasting in view is the boasting that the Jewish Christians were doing towards the Gentile Christians. “See, I’m a Christian (or a better Christian) because I am circumcised and am under the Mosaic Law.” But Paul says, no!, Christians are Christians by faith. Consequently, Jewish Christians have nothing to boast about before Gentile Chtistians. They are equal members of the body!

Now, as people have mentioned, James mentions that we are not justified by “faith alone”. We are justified by works also. But the context of James is NOT “works of the Law”, but good deeds (i.e., helping the poor etc.). So there is no contradiction between James and Paul. Paul is saying we don’t need the Mosaic Law to be justified. James is saying that good works done in a state of grace can justify.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Dear apaphasis

Is is it not your belief that it is the *act *of faith that saves us?

I will let the Catholic Church speak for itself in the matter:

Justification is by faith, not works. That is a very Scriptural position. Because it is very a Scriptual position It is also a very Catholic one as well.

With that being said I would say that a minimum of two works is required. 1)Believe and 2) repent.

Hi,
So where then does that leave all the sacrements required by the CC?

 

[mom2three]

Hi,
So where then does that leave all the sacrements required by the CC?

Perhaps this is just the BASE. Obviously, the sacraments play a role but in the case of the theif on the cross, those sacraments were not an option for him… but he was saved anyway.

 

[VociMike]

Hi,
So where then does that leave all the sacrements required by the CC?

If you were there when Mary said of Jesus “do what He tells you” would you have answered “yes!” or “no!”?

 

[InLight247]

It is black and white clear in James 2:22-24 :
“You see that faith was active along with his(Abraham) works, and faith was completed by the works.”(James 2:22)
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”(James 2:24)

It is never faith alone. In Matthew 25:33, “He will place the sheep on his right and goats on his left.” Sheeps performed the work of love, did charity for the least brothers of Jesus, therefore, Jesus said to sheeps “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you…” (Matt 25:34)

And Jesus said to the goats “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire…For I was hungry and you gave me no food,…”(Matt 25:41-42)

It is very straight forward, not faith alone, not work alone.
Faith has to be completed by work.

 

[Cross-checking]

These are all very good; I’ve been studding this a lot lately. But we need to remember it is actually Gods Grace that saves us. Faith is our human response to Gods gift of Grace. It is our acknowledgement and acceptance of Gods free gift. Part of our faith, and the completion of faith, is doing the good works God wants us to do. However, without Gods Grace we can’t do anything; we wouldn’t have the opportunity to have faith. Without Gods Grace we wouldn’t even be here. So as I understand it, we are saved by Grace through Faith Working through Love.

 

[apophasis]

santaro75:

there is always a work associated with the faith you are talking about. That is what James was speaking of. Yes the act is initiated by the faith. Just like your faith leads you to baptism, your faith leads you to repentence in the confessional.

If you weren’t sorry for your sin you would probably be hard pressed to tell your pastor the awful things you do.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. a coin with one side has no redemptive value

OK, you explained to me that works are involved with the “faith” that motivates for baptism and confession of sins (although an infant exercises no faith when baptized, and one can confess sins apart from any faith). But I still would like to know what the content of this “faith” that motivates is, since it is this “faith” that not only motivates, but saves."

 

[apophasis]

gelsbern:

The acts you describe are the result of our faith in the promises of God. Jesus promised the cleansing of sins for the act of baptism, Jesus promised the forgiveness of sins for the act of confession, so it is a combination, our acts (works) are based upon our faith in the promises and commandments of our Lord.

So then the content of your faith is the divine “promise” that if you do these things (baptism, confession and keep the Commanments), God will in turn cleanse and forgive your sins? Is that right?

 

[apophasis]

Roman_Catholic:

Dear apaphasis

Is it not your belief that it is the act of faith that saves us?

It is not.

Please define for me what you believe this “act” is.

 

[apophasis]

These are all very good; I’ve been studding this a lot lately. But we need to remember it is actually Gods Grace that saves us. Faith is our human response to Gods gift of Grace. It is our acknowledgement and acceptance of Gods free gift. Part of our faith, and the completion of faith, is doing the good works God wants us to do. However, without Gods Grace we can’t do anything; we wouldn’t have the opportunity to have faith. Without Gods Grace we wouldn’t even be here. So as I understand it, we are saved by Grace through Faith Working through Love.

What do you mean when you say God’s “grace” saves you? You say “God’s grace” is a “gift,” but please define this gift of “grace.”

 

[John_Henry]

What do you mean when you say God’s “grace” saves you? You say “God’s grace” is a “gift,” but please define this gift of “grace.”

I don’t understand this question. God’s grace is the supernatural power he gives us to turn to him. By the power he gives us, we are convinced of our sin, we place our faith in him, and we are baptised. In baptism, we are infused with the gifts of faith, hope and charity. With the charity we have been given in baptism, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Why? Because God is at work in us.

Grace saves us because it is the free gift of the power without which we could not be saved. It’s source is the shed blood of Christ who freely offered himself to the Father on our behalf.

 

[VociMike]

So then the content of your faith is the divine “promise” that if you do these things (baptism, confession and keep the Commanments), God will in turn cleanse and forgive your sins? Is that right?

Let me ask you a more fundamental question. How many of the things Christ asks of you can you refuse to do and still be saved?