HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[Pax]

VociMike,

I like your question because it really puts the focus on what it means to “believe” and have “faith.” It is obvious to the Catholic that belief/faith means that we not only believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior, but that we also believe and follow “all” that Jesus taught.

 

[apophasis]

apophasis: What do you mean when you say God’s “grace” saves you? You say “God’s grace” is a “gift,” but please define this gift of “grace.”

Response:
I don’t understand this question. God’s grace is the supernatural power he gives us to turn to him.

Thank you. You just defined your perception of “grace.” I don’t agree with it, but thank you for the definition. Although I do agree with you that “grace” is a power, we part as to who actually exercises it and for what reason.

By the power he gives us, we are convinced of our sin, we place our faith in him, and we are baptised. In baptism, we are infused with the gifts of faith, hope and charity. With the charity we have been given in baptism, we work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Why? Because God is at work in us.

Grace saves us because it is the free gift of the power without which we could not be saved. It’s source is the shed blood of Christ who freely offered himself to the Father on our behalf.

Actually, Scripture reveals to us that the conviction of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit in the world (John 16:8), not a “power He gives us.”

According to your definition, then, “grace” is a divine “power” bestowed on you to “turn to Christ” and to continue to work out your salvation. But the Apostle Paul emphatically states, when writing to the believers in Ephesus, that “BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith…” (Eph. 2:8). He doesn’t say, “by the “power” of grace,” your are “being saved,” but rather by “BY GRACE” itself you “have been saved,” and this “through faith.”

“By grace,” meaning that through the once-for-all sacrificial work of Christ on the cross it’s GOD, not us, who now has the power and the freedom to save, completely, ALL who personally trust in the Person and sacrificial work of His beloved Son (see John 3:14-18).

Yes, I agree that the source of divine grace is the shed blood of Christ, but the power of grace is exercised by God Himself who, through the cross, now has the power to forgive ALL sins and save forever (i.e., apart from personal merit - any good works) those who simply put their faith/trust in the Person and work of His beloved Son on their behalf. He is able (has the power through the cross) to save “BY GRACE” (unmerited favor) those who believe (i.e., “through faith”), because there is plenty of redemption in the blood.

So, according to the Scriptures, grace is not a power bestowed on you by God, but the powerful means BY which God saves all who will simply believe the message concerning His Son - who did it all, for us. “Grace” doesn’t save - God does “by grace” all who will believe.

 

[apophasis]

VociMike:

Originally Posted by apophasis: So then the content of your faith is the divine “promise” that if you do these things (baptism, confession and keep the Commanments), God will in turn cleanse and forgive your sins? Is that right?

Let me ask you a more fundamental question. How many of the things Christ asks of you can you refuse to do and still be saved?

Since you quoted my question to “gelsbern,” why didn’t you first answer it before aking me a question?

But I will be gracious enough to answer your question in an even more “fundamental” way than you asked me. Fundamentally, my salvation is never based on what I “do” or “do not do.” Such a salvation would be precarious, indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human. But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust. It was, is always, and is continually based on what HE DID, once-for-all. So based on a Biblical premise regarding salvation - your question must be rendered non sequitur.

And this is all in respect to the OP’s question regarding Rom. 4:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

 

[VociMike]

Since you quoted my question to “gelsbern,” why didn’t you first answer it before aking me a question?

But I will be gracious enough to answer your question in an even more “fundamental” way than you asked me. Fundamentally, my salvation is never based on what I “do” or “do not do.” Such a salvation would be precarious, indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human. But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust. It was, is always, and is continually based on what HE DID, once-for-all. So based on a Biblical premise regarding salvation - your question must be rendered non sequitur.

And this is all in respect to the OP’s question regarding Rom. 4:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

So you can be saved even if you reject each and every thing that Christ asks of you? Then why can’t you be saved without faith? Why is a microsecond of faith the only thing Christ insists on, if He will let you reject everything else He asks of you?

And is not your having faith something that you “do”? Does it not require an assertion on your part? Or is it simply stuffed into you against your will?

 

[Philthy]

Hi apo - long time no debate…

But the Apostle Paul emphatically states, when writing to the believers in Ephesus, that “BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith…” (Eph. 2:8). He doesn’t say, “by the “power” of grace,” your are “being saved,” but rather by “BY GRACE” itself you “have been saved,” and this “through faith.”

Paul says we “have been” saved (Eph 2:8) but he also says that those who are “in Christ Jesus”…“are being” saved (1 Cor 1:18-30). If I am understanding your point - and I have to guess because you didnt state it - you are trying to point out that if we “have been” saved then our salvation is complete and the future is irrelevant. But such a conclusion only follows if one believes that salvation is instantaneous, complete and permanent at the moment in time one comes to faith in Christ. Paul’s other references to salvation - including the one I provided - give a different picture of salvation than one might conclude from an isolated understanding of Ephesians.
He later speaks in 2 Cor 13-5"Examine yourselves to see whether you are LIVING IN FAITH. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ is in you? - UNLESS, of course you fail the test." That doesnt sound like a “once and for all time” test. And I cannot leave this discussion without reiterating the plain words of Christ himself from Matthew 6:15 “If you do not forgive others…, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you…” People will continue to sin against us throughout our lives and part of having faith in Jesus Christ is forgiving them. You can call that a work if you wish, but I call it an act of faith, just like all the other things Christ calls us to do - they are acts of faith.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."**

**
The key here is to understand that faith isnt a one time thing, it is a “living” part of your salvation and it is “dead” without works (James 2:17).
The important fact to recognize with Abraham is that his faith wasnt a one time thing, infact he had a long track record of displaying his living faith long before the point in his life that Paul cites in Rom 4 which is from Gen 15: 6, but Gen15 wasnt the ONLY time, infact YEARS before as Hebrews 11 says:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. Gen 12]9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. - Hebrews 11
Right here we see Abraham displaying his living faith from back to Gen 12 long before the time Paul cited in Gen 15. The whole chapter of Hebrews 11 destroys the Protestant notion of Faith Alone, rather it shows the Catholic understanding that faith is doing God’s Will through action during your lifetime (Heb11:6).

It actually goes onto DEFINE why Abraham’s faith was “credited as righteousness” in Rom 4 it goes onto say:
18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was "reckoned to him as righteousness."
Here we see faith is something that can “weaken”, “waver” and “grow”, this occurs over time and trials during our life. Paul never defines faith as a one time thing, rather he teaches that your actions AFTER faith are the real key: “1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope (Rom5)”

 

[Philthy]

Fundamentally, my salvation is never based on what I “do” or “do not do.” Such a salvation would be precarious, indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human.

Oh come on - dont you think thats just a little judgemental relativism? Cant you hear a universalist coming in and saying, “'whats all this “having faith” garbage? That’s just limiting Gods mercy. Such obligations are contrary to God’s love and placing any human cooperation in the act of salvation would be precarious indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human.” I can…
apo:

But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust.

I have to call you on this - not that I disagree with it, but it contradicts your previous statement. The word put is a verb. It implies an action. Yet you started this post by claiming that your salvation is never based on what you do or do not do. So now I’m confused by how you can “put” your faith in Christ without doing anything. How, exactly did you “put” your faith in Christ? Is it a one time thing or must you continue to put your faith in Christ? Christ said that whoever wishes to come after him must “take up his cross daily and follow” him. If your faith is truly “put” in Christ, is it possible to habitually murder, steal, fornicate, not forgive, ignore the needy, etc? Is not obeying the commandments - loving God and loving neighbor as self - “putting” your faith in Christ?
apo:

It was, is always, and is continually based on what HE DID, once-for-all.

The basis of salvation is, of course, Christs sacrifice on the cross. But that basis alone does not save every one - some folks are goin’ to hell…so there is more to discuss than simply the basis of salvation for those of us on planet earth.
apo:

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

I ask this in all seriousness - does “credited as righteousness” mean saved?
This is so confusing because God specifically tells Abraham (Gen 22) that only after He witnessed Abraham getting ready to sacrifice Isaac:
“I know NOW (not before!) how devoted you are…since you did not withhold your only son”. This sounds like God didnt know Abrahams “faith” apart from his works. And this point is repeated (for emphasis) in the next paragraph, “I swear by myself declares the Lord that BECAUSE YOU ACTED as you did I will bless you abundantly…” It would seem to me that the faith that is being referred to - using Abraham as the example - is an obedient faith and that that faith is something very different than a “faith alone” faith. The actions of obedience are viewed as the actual faith and not separate from it.

Hey one last thing - my NAB says “credited to him as an ACT of righteousness” is this a reasonable translation or what?

 

[Pax]

…
…
According to your definition, then, “grace” is a divine “power” bestowed on you to “turn to Christ” and to continue to work out your salvation. But the Apostle Paul emphatically states, when writing to the believers in Ephesus, that “BY GRACE you have been saved THROUGH faith…” (Eph. 2:8). He doesn’t say, “by the “power” of grace,” your are “being saved,” but rather by “BY GRACE” itself you “have been saved,” and this “through faith.”
…
…

So, according to the Scriptures, grace is not a power bestowed on you by God…

Scripture disagrees with you. God’s grace does in fact empower us. Try the following:

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence. When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

1 Peter 4:10-11
Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[mom2three]

Since you quoted my question to “gelsbern,” why didn’t you first answer it before aking me a question?

But I will be gracious enough to answer your question in an even more “fundamental” way than you asked me. Fundamentally, my salvation is never based on what I “do” or “do not do.” Such a salvation would be precarious, indeed, and would not have a divine origin, but human. But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust. It was, is always, and is continually based on what HE DID, once-for-all. So based on a Biblical premise regarding salvation - your question must be rendered non sequitur.

And this is all in respect to the OP’s question regarding Rom. 4:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

After reading much of the posts, and doing a little study myself, I’ve found that the Bible NOWHERE says we are saved by faith alone. I think this statement is misleading. We simply cannot ignore what it says in James 2. The only place in the Bible where the words “faith alone” exist are to say NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

It is apparent that while our faith is primary, without works (and I do not mean legalistic works but works for the glory of God, which I believe is meant by James), we cannot having a saving faith.

If we were saved by faith alone, works would not be necessary whatsoever. You cannot separate faith and works. You cannot have one without the other and be saved. We are not saved by our works or by mere faith.

The passage in Romans does not indicate AT ALL that faith alone was saving. But obviously, faith played a key role. What if Abraham had faith but chose NOT to “GO”? His lack of works, would work against his faith. It is obvious that his obedience (or works) were necessary in order for his belief to be righteous. His faith was not separated from his work and obedience.

(I think it’s important to remember that there are works for the glory of God and works of the law, which can be done in vain repetition for the sake of “looking good”.)

In short, to say we are saved by faith ALONE, falls short and gives us a false impression. I agree, however, that without the grace of God, we would not be saved at all. It is our response to the grace we do not deserve, in our faith and actions, that saves us.

 

[mikeledes]

Isn’t Romans 4 referring specifically to initial justification. We are justified by grace through faith, but works can help maintain and increase that justification. I can give a person a plant as a gift. That person did not pay me or do anything, I just wanted to give it to that person out of the kindness of my heart. However, it’s up to the person to take care of the plant by watering it, putting it in a place where it gets enough sunlight, giving it plant vitamins, and so on. Similarly, God gives us that initial grace of justification purely based on his love and mercy, not on our own merits. But we have to maintain and grow in that grace by continuing to grow in the virtues of faith and love. How? By maintaining a healthy prayer life and spirituality and by doing good to others.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mom2three]

Isn’t Romans 4 referring specifically to initial justification. We are justified by grace through faith, but works can help maintain and increase that justification. I can give a person a plant as a gift. That person did not pay me or do anything, I just wanted to give it to that person out of the kindness of my heart. However, it’s up to the person to take care of the plant by watering it, putting it in a place where it gets enough sunlight, giving it plant vitamins, and so on. Similarly, God gives us that initial grace of justification purely based on his love and mercy, not on our own merits. But we have to maintain and grow in that grace by continuing to grow in the virtues of faith and love. How? By maintaining a healthy prayer life and spirituality and by doing good to others.

God Bless,
Michael

That’s exactly why I said that faith takes a primary role. But you cannot separate them. Once you have the plant, if you don’t water it, it will die. Intitially, you have faith, but if faith is not followed by works, your faith will die and cannot save you. This would be nothing more than belief - and even Satan believes. The plant, if left alone, WILL die… it is not sufficient by itself…

I am not saying at all that we earn salvation by our own merits. That would be like watering plastic… pointless.

 

[mikeledes]

I am not saying at all that we earn salvation by our own merits. That would be like watering plastic… pointless.

I’'m not disagreeing with you at all. I think justification by faith alone is contradicted by the Bible and is based on a misinterpretation of Saint Paul. Paul is dealing with the initial stage of justification. How are we first justified? James is dealing with Christians after they have recieved their initial justification. Just because they may have been initially justified by grace through faith does not mean that that is enough. Christians have to, by the empowerment recieved from God’s grace, continue to grow in and maintain that justification by following God’s commandments and doing good works. Otherwise, that initial grace of justification will be lost. I like to compare grace with oxygen. Oxygen is a free gift from God. We did nothing to earn it and we don’t have to pay for it and it is what sustains our physical life. Our first inhalation of oxygen is at birth and that is completely involuntary. However, in order to maintain our physical lives, we have to continue to inhale it. If we chose to cut off our oxygen supply by holding our breath or throwing oursleves into the ocean, then we shall surely die. Similarly, grace sustains our spiritual life, but we can lose it through sin.

God Bless

 

[mom2three]

I’'m not disagreeing with you at all. I think justification by faith alone is contradicted by the Bible and is based on a misinterpretation of Saint Paul. Paul is dealing with the initial stage of justification. How are we first justified? James is dealing with Christians after they have recieved their initial justification. Just because they may have been initially justified by grace through faith does not mean that that is enough. Christians have to, by the empowerment recieved from God’s grace, continue to grow in and maintain that justification by following God’s commandments and doing good works. Otherwise, that initial grace of justification will be lost. I like to compare grace with oxygen. Oxygen is a free gift from God. We did nothing to earn it and we don’t have to pay for it and it is what sustains our physical life. Our first inhalation of oxygen is at birth and that is completely involuntary. However, in order to maintain our physical lives, we have to continue to inhale it. If we chose to cut off our oxygen supply by holding our breath or throwing oursleves into the ocean, then we shall surely die. Similarly, grace sustains our spiritual life, but we can lose it through sin.

God Bless

Glad we’re on the same page!

 

[sara888]

A protestant wrote saying that Romans 4:1-12 shows that salvation for all mankind is by faith alone. Though the passage does not say this specifically, the text is a bit confusing to me. Can someone help me refute this position?

Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."**

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.**

**If it is by Faith alone we are saved why does the bible speak more about Gods commandments and Hell.?

If you read the NT its is about Faith and Commandment keeping , along with more references to Hell rather than Heaven for the ones who dont abide in Gods moral Laws.

Jan**

 

[apophasis]

VociMike:

So you can be saved even if you reject each and every thing that Christ asks of you?

Actually, this is a question that should be addressed to Paul who taught:Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Then why can’t you be saved without faith?

Because God asks men, in the gospel message of Christ, to completely trust in what HE DID for them, not what they can do for Him. If salvation was at all based on what men do for Him, then the incarnation was pointless and His substitutionary sin-sacrifice fruitless.

Why is a microsecond of faith the only thing Christ insists on,

Salvation is truly a miracle of a moment, yes, but spiritual growth “in Christ” is the work of a life time (2 Pet. 3:18; Heb. 6:1). It is a continual walk of faith in light of what God has revealed in His written Word regarding who/what a believer is, being NOW," in Christ":Eph 5:8-10 “…for you were formerly darkness, but NOW you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.”

if He will let you reject everything else He asks of you?

Your problem, Mike, is that you’ve adopted the false teaching that “everything else He asks you to do” determines your salvation status, rendering salvation not by grace (unmerited divine favor) through faith, but by self-works. But Paul explicitly teaches us, “not as a result of works, that no one should boast.”

 

[apophasis]

Philthy:

Paul says we “have been” saved (Eph 2:8) but he also says that those who are “in Christ Jesus”…“are being” saved (1 Cor 1:18-30).

No he doesn’t. Paul is using both “perish” and “saved” in a frequentative sense, not durative. The “word of the cross” is either “foolishness” to men, or it is the “power of God” to save (1 Cor. 1:18; cf. Rom. 1:16-17). He is portraying here the constant stream of the lost toppling into eternity without Christ and the constant stream of the saved entering the door of eternal fellowship with Christ. “But to us who are being saved” does not mean a believer is moment by moment obtaining salvation, but the preaching of the “word of the cross” is constantly saving men, while at the same time others are constantly perishing because they consider "the word of the cross foolishness. Where do you stand on “the word of the cross,” Phil?

If I am understanding your point - and I have to guess because you didnt state it - you are trying to point out that if we “have been” saved then our salvation is complete and the future is irrelevant.

Why must you conclude that if one’s salvation is complete in Christ (which it is) his future would then be irrelevant. I would conclude his future, from that point on and into eternity, to be the most significant of his life.

He later speaks in 2 Cor 13-5"Examine yourselves to see whether you are LIVING IN FAITH. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ is in you? - UNLESS, of course you fail the test." That doesnt sound like a “once and for all time” test.

You’re right, the test is to be continual, that is, test (examine) yourselves to see if you’re walking according to your faith in Christ. Then he asks, “or do you not recognize this (fact) about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?” The qualifier being, of course, those who pass the test. Those who don’t never had Him.

And I cannot leave this discussion without reiterating the plain words of Christ himself from Matthew 6:15 “If you do not forgive others…, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you…”

Yes, and it’s comments like this that I ask you what your stand is regarding “the word of the cross” in regards to your own sins and salvation.

People will continue to sin against us throughout our lives and part of having faith in Jesus Christ is forgiving them. You can call that a work if you wish, but I call it an act of faith, just like all the other things Christ calls us to do - they are acts of faith.

I fully agree. But according to the Scriptures salvation itself hinges not on our “acts of faith,” but a passive faith in what Christ did for us on the cross: “The word of the cross” - tragically, to most men (even religious men) it’s foolishness.

 

[apophasis]

“But my salvation rests “in” whom I have put my faith/trust.”

Philthy responds: I have to call you on this - not that I disagree with it, but it contradicts your previous statement. The word put is a verb. It implies an action. Yet you started this post by claiming that your salvation is never based on what you do or do not do. So now I’m confused by how you can “put” your faith in Christ without doing anything. How, exactly did you “put” your faith in Christ?

I probably already answered this in my previous response to you. The faith in Christ that caused my salvation is not an “active” faith, but a “passive” faith. I trust completely in His completed work on the cross on my behalf. Again we’re back to “the word of the cross” as to whether it is “foolishness” to men or the “power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.”

Is it a one time thing or must you continue to put your faith in Christ?

Salvation itself is a “one time thing” which occurs the moment one believes “the word of the cross.” But, of course, from that moment on the saved continue to walk according to their faith in the One through whom God saved them.

Christ said that whoever wishes to come after him must “take up his cross daily and follow” him.

Yes. But it’s only those who are His that “follow” Him. This is not a salvation teaching.

If your faith is truly “put” in Christ, is it possible to habitually murder, steal, fornicate, not forgive, ignore the needy, etc? Is not obeying the commandments - loving God and loving neighbor as self - “putting” your faith in Christ?

No. Not for salvation. It is faith linked to “the word of the cross” through which GOD saves a man.

The basis of salvation is, of course, Christs sacrifice on the cross. But that basis alone does not save every one - some folks are goin’ to hell…

Why? Because they consider “the word of the cross” foolishness.

so there is more to discuss than simply the basis of salvation for those of us on planet earth.

NO - if you’re not saved. You have yet to come to the cross - empty handed. YES - for the saved who are to move on to spiritual maturity (Heb. 6:1). Afterall, the saved are now “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” but not BY them.

I ask this in all seriousness - does “credited as righteousness” mean saved?

Yes. You can’t keep a righteous man out of heaven. And objective, reckoned, divine righteousness is far greater than subjective, works righteousness. The true believer knows he cannot stand in his own righteousness, but rejoices in the fact that he was imputed the righteousness of Christ Himself (2 Cor. 5:21; cf. Rom. 3:22-24). As Paul says, “…that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9) Again, we’re back to faith and “the word of the cross.”

 

[apophasis]

Philthy:

This is so confusing because God specifically tells Abraham (Gen 22) that only after He witnessed Abraham getting ready to sacrifice Isaac:

“I know NOW (not before!) how devoted you are…since you did not withhold your only son”. This sounds like God didnt know Abrahams “faith” apart from his works.

This is anthropomorphic language. Obviously God is omniscient, but at times in the Scriptures we see Him expressed in human terms so we can understand. In other words, from a human standpoint. I’m sure you know this. Any of your apologists will tell you the same thing.

And this point is repeated (for emphasis) in the next paragraph, “I swear by myself declares the Lord that BECAUSE YOU ACTED as you did I will bless you abundantly…” It would seem to me that the faith that is being referred to - using Abraham as the example - is an obedient faith and that that faith is something very different than a “faith alone” faith. The actions of obedience are viewed as the actual faith and not separate from it.

But in respect to declaring Abraham righteous you must go back to Gen. 15:6. Long before Isaac was born, and long before Abraham, by a mature faith, was willing to offer up his only son, and apart from any works, it is recorded:Gen 15:4-6 "Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.” And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (God) reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness.This is the only place in Genesis that it is recorded that God reckoned Abraham’s faith to him as righteousness. A righteousness that came from God on the basis of faith in the word of God alone. It is not said of Abraham in Gen. 22 when he was willing to offer up Isaac, or even when he gave a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek, back in Gen. 14.

Righteousness that “comes from God,” according to the Scriptures, is always “on the basis of faith.” Faith that rests in the Word of God. God reckons no man righteous based on works, but only through faith in His Word. For our generation it’s “the word of the cross.” Paul stays consistent with this Biblical theme:Rom 4:4 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Hey one last thing - my NAB says “credited to him as an ACT of righteousness” is this a reasonable translation or what?

It is not a “translation,” but a theological interpretation based on one’s own theological bias.

 

[apophasis]

Isn’t Romans 4 referring specifically to initial justification.

Can you please point out to us in which verse in Rom. 4 Paul uses the word “initial” with the word “justification?” Or for that matter, as a qualifier?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

."Salvation itself is a “one time thing” which occurs the moment one believes “the word of the cross.”

Exactly were is the one passage in the bible that says this?

Or is it implied?