Help explaining Purgatory and Christ's Sacrafice

[zachh]

I am having a difficult time summarizing the Catholic view on Purgatory and Christ’s Sacrafice to a Protestant. Here is his main argument:

If the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is true, then The Bible cannot be the inspired word of God. The Bible tells us that Jesus’s death on the cross payed the penalty for our sins. That the wrath of our sins was poured on to Christ and that his work makes us perfect.

However, if Purgatory is real, then people are made perfect by their own punishment, not Christ’s atonement. Catholics believe that purgatory is necessary for people to pay the price for their sins. Scripture tells us however, that Christ payed the price for our sins. This is called “substitutionary atonement” or “penal substitution.”

These verses clearly support penal substituion, and thus, go against the Catholic belief in purgatory.

Colossians 2:13-14 “13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”

Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us.”

Romans 3:24-25 “being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed.”

Colossians 1:21- “And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him.”

Christ’s death, his atonement, is what justifies us. Christ took the burden, the penalty for our sins, on to himself to save us. It is his atonement that makes us clean, not a punishment that we pay.

I posted this before the board went down, so I’m sorry if someone gives the same response. Thank you, though, for your responses.

 

[havemercy]

Its too bad this got deleted (along with everything else that was obliterated thanks to the possible hacker). I forget who it was who posted like five consecutive posts…But thank you for not being able to type too much! Hopefully you had those posts saved somehow/somewhere. I found them very informative.

Tony

p.s. Hi Zachary!

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Try this: How to explain Purgatory to Protestants

Pertinent quote:

1. "It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ’s work."

Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren’t sufficient.

Wrong!

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for “For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant” (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ’s sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ’s sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification – both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ’s sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ’s sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ’s sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

 

[fellside]

(I’m the protestant that Zach and Tony are talking about)

Why is there any need for purgatory? If our sins are nailed to the cross (as the scripture I sourced says) then why do we need to be punished for our sins? Christ became a curse for us and satisfied the Father.

Romans 8:1-2 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”

The reason believers are not completely sanctified on this earth is because we still live in sinful bodies. Our flesh desires sin, even though we have been freed from sin and have dominion over it. Our flesh still seeks to follow worldly things.

Sanctification is not a process of getting to a point where we can enter heaven. Sanctification is a process of growing in faith and becomming more like Christ. Believers are seen as clean and holy in God’s eyes because of Jesus’s work on the cross. We have been set free and made clean. There is nothing we can do to make ourselves more worthy of heaven. There is no need for punishment after death, because the Father is satisfied with the Son’s atonement.

Plus, there is no biblical evidence for any need of purgatory. There are only two things that lead to a belief in purgatory: Bad exegesis of scripture, or a rebellion against scripture.

 

[Pax]

fellside,

Here is what I always give people on purgatory and it is based on a presentation by John Martignoni plus a little of my own research:

2 Sam 12:13-18
David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died.
There is punishment/consequences for Sin even after the sin has been forgiven.

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it,
Nothing unclean will enter heaven

Isaiah 6:1-7
IN THE year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin is forgiven.”
Isaiah is a holy and righteous prophet granted a presence before God in heaven or at least a vision of the same. He recognizes that his lips are unclean. They are made clean/purified by a seraphim using a burning coal. Nothing unclean will enter heaven

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Because nothing unclean will enter heaven

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
There is a way that the souls of just men are made perfect

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
After death every man’s work will be tested by fire and he will suffer loss even though he has been saved.

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This implies forgiveness of sin or its punishment after death in the age to come.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Matthew 18:23-35
“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? 'And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
**Where can you go after death that is like jail until you have paid all your debt? In heaven there is no need forgiveness. In hell there is no forgiveness. **

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There is judgment after death for what we have done.

Some verses in scripture simply make no sense in a heaven and hell only theology.
James 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

If Jesus did everything that needed to be done for the forgiveness of sins then what can this verse mean? Unless there is punishment for sin even after sin is forgiven as in the case of David and Nathan.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Here it is again…something we do that covers a multitude of sins.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Once again, something we do that in someway completes the work of Christ. Even though Christ’s redemptive work is sufficient for forgiveness, there is still punishment for a multitude of sins. Love and suffering cover a multitude of sins.

 

[thistle]

I am having a difficult time summarizing the Catholic view on Purgatory and Christ’s Sacrafice to a Protestant. Here is his main argument:

I posted this before the board went down, so I’m sorry if someone gives the same response. Thank you, though, for your responses.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[Scott_Waddell]

This is also answered in the ask an apologist forum here.

 

[kleary]

fellside-

Remember- in accordance with your Protestant beliefs the justified sinner is not clean, just declared clean even though he still remains unclean after being “saved”.

Therefore the concept of Purgatory seems foreign to you due to this bad theology and exegesis of Scripture given by Martin Luther and the rest of them that came up with their own idea of it all.

Ken

 

[santaro75]

What of 1pt3:19

who are these souls in prison?

 

[zachh]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

[Philthy]

Hi fellside!

Please be sure to read all of Pax’s posts as they are jam packed with wisdom and Scripture.

(I’m the protestant that Zach and Tony are talking about)

Why is there any need for purgatory? If our sins are nailed to the cross (as the scripture I sourced says) then why do we need to be punished for our sins? Christ became a curse for us and satisfied the Father.

This is a reasonable approach, but you are ignoring some glaring problems. The first and most obvious problem is the reality of hell. If Christ died for all of the sins of mankind and they were all nailed to the cross and “satisfied the Father” then why does
God still take his wrath out and send some to hell? Wouldn’t that be “double-dipping” on God’s part? This doesn’t so much address the issue of Purgatory as it does address your concept of what is meant by all sins being nailed to the cross. Your concept of all the punishment for sin being gone doesn’t quite add up.

Romans 8:1-2 “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”

Purgatory is not condemnation. Purgatory is the means by which God applies the work of Christ on the Cross for those who are in Christ yet not completely sanctified at the time of death.

The reason believers are not completely sanctified on this earth is because we still live in sinful bodies. Our flesh desires sin, even though we have been freed from sin and have dominion over it. Our flesh still seeks to follow worldly things.

Sorry but you and I are, in fact, sinful. It is the human “heart” which is deceiptful above all things. Also, be very careful about how you minimize what Christ accomplished on the Cross and what God promises regarding sin. If you abandoned yourself entirely to Christ you would, by virtue of his Grace, entirely eliminate sin from your life. God also promises that “No trial has come to you except what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength. But with the trial He will provide a way out so that you may be able to bear it.” When we sin it is our fault - dont kid yourself.

 

[fellside]

First of all, to the argument that we must be clean to enter Heaven, we are made clean by Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Not by any punishment we endure, or any works we do.

The Father was pleased by Jesus’s atonement. I have already given biblical support to show that Christ already took on the punishment for our sins.

As for the argument from 1 Peter 3, the most popular theories on this one are:

1. Jesus descended into Hell (or Sheol) following his crucifixion, as a witness to His triumph, or to somehow throw off the sins of the world, or to retrieve the souls of deceased saints from “Abraham’s bosom.”
2. Jesus preached through Noah to the sinners of Noah’s day, who rejected the message and ended up “in prison” in Hell.
3. Jesus descended into Hell following his crucifixion, giving the sinners there an opportunity to come to postmortem faith in Him for salvation.

I would go with the second option.

The best you can say is that if purgatory exists, it could be the “prison” referenced, but there’s nothing in the text itself that requires that interpretation. This text provides neither support nor opposition to purgatory. It simply has an interpretation compatible with the doctrine of purgatory, if that doctrine has already been established.

The complex Catholic view of purgatory as a place of unpleasant refining, from which saints can be loosed at the pleasure of the Pope, finds no support in this passage, which talks about the preaching of Christ to some group of people described only as “disobedient long ago…in the days of Noah,” not as saints undergoing purification.

 

[fellside]

fellside-

Remember- in accordance with your Protestant beliefs the justified sinner is not clean, just declared clean even though he still remains unclean after being “saved”.

Therefore the concept of Purgatory seems foreign to you due to this bad theology and exegesis of Scripture given by Martin Luther and the rest of them that came up with their own idea of it all.

Ken

I have no earthly idea what you’re talking about.

 

[fellside]

Sorry but you and I are, in fact, sinful. It is the human “heart” which is deceiptful above all things. Also, be very careful about how you minimize what Christ accomplished on the Cross and what God promises regarding sin. If you abandoned yourself entirely to Christ you would, by virtue of his Grace, entirely eliminate sin from your life. God also promises that “No trial has come to you except what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength. But with the trial He will provide a way out so that you may be able to bear it.” When we sin it is our fault - dont kid yourself.

You misunderstood me. I am not trying to make an excuse for msyelf. I AM a sinner. I am guilty for every sin that I commit. I feel conviction from the Holy Spirit every single time I sin, and I feel disgusting and un-deserving. I deserve nothing more than Hell, yet God saved me by Christ’s atoning work on the cross.

Yet we as believers are new creations. We have been crucified with Christ, and it is now Christ that lives within us.

I don’t see how you got the idea that I don’t think it’s my fault.

Also, I find it ironic that you think I’m taking away from the work of Christ… when I thought it was clear that you guys were. I am saying that Christ’s work was sufficent. You’re saying that it was insufficent (regardless of what semantics are used to avoid this language) and that we are required to work and be punished to make his work mean anything.

Christ’s died for the sins of the whole word, but his gift of salvation must be accepted through faith. After all we are saved “by grace, through faith.”

 

[Ziggy]

Why do you die? Isn’t it from the temporal effects of Original Sin ? Even if you are baptized and “saved”, you still suffer from the temporal effects of original sin, which is why you die. When you do die, if you have any temporal affects on your soul from your actual sin, you must be “purged” of it before entering heaven.

 

[fellside]

Sorry for all these posts, one after the other, but I just wanted to introduce myself. I’m David. I don’t want to come off as some protestant cowboy coming over here to prove you all wrong. I was just in a discussion with Tony and Zach, and they wanted me to come talk to you guys. I thought it’d be a good idea.

I apologize if I ever come across as a punk when I’m posting. I get somewhat impatient if I feel that I’m being misunderstood.

 

[fellside]

Why do you die? Isn’t it from the temporal effects of Original Sin ? Even if you are baptized and “saved”, you still suffer from the temporal effects of original sin, which is why you die. When you do die, if you have any temporal affects on your soul from your actual sin, you must be “purged” of it before entering heaven.

The sufferring that believers encounter from temporal effects of original sin, are not salvific. Or in other words, those sufferings are not what merit our salvation.

When God looks at his elect, he sees the work of Christ on the cross. We have already been made clean by his atonement. By the grace that we have accepted through faith. If I died today, I would be with my father in heaven (like the thief on the cross next to Christ or the martyrs talked about in Revelation).

God does indeed use sufferring to build us up and mold us into the likeness of his son (I actually preached a sermon on that in 1 Peter 4:12-19) but we are saved by grace through faith. Not by punishments and sufferings that we endure.

 

[Pax]

fellside,

You fail to recognize that all of the OT saints including David were saved by the salvific work of Jesus. Even though this is true, David still had consequences attached to his sin. Nathan even tells David that his sin is forgiven, but quite pointedly tells him that a punishment will be forth coming. If Christ paid the entire penalty(both temporal and eternal) for David’s sin as well as ours then David would not have suffered this consequence. The problem with your thinking is that you are mistaken about the penalty. The penalty that Jesus paid is for the eternal consequences. There still exist temporal penalties. Scripture even says that the Father chastises his children.

An NT example that goes against your thinking is found in the book of Acts concerning Simon the Magician.[see Acts Chapter 8] In this narrative we are told that Simon “believed” and was also baptized. Subsequent to his becoming a Christian, he saw that the apostles passed on power through the laying on of hands. Simon desired this power and tried to buy it from the apostles. Naturally, he was refused and Peter gives him the following rebuke:

Acts 8:20-23
But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”

Simon was so frightened by this that he responds in verse 24 saying:

“Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Likewise we read about Annanias and Sophia who were clearly saved Christians. They, however, let Satan convince them to lie to the Holy Spirit. The penalty for this was their deaths.[Acts 5:1-10]

Verse 11 then says: “And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.”

Apparently, everyone in the early Church realized that there was a penalty for sin in the NT church just as there was a penalty for sin in the OT example of David. There are other NT passages that also show that there is penalty for sin for the members of the body of Christ.

I hope this helps.

 

[Ziggy]

The sufferring that believers encounter from temporal effects of original sin, are not salvific. Or in other words, those sufferings are not what merit our salvation.

When God looks at his elect, he sees the work of Christ on the cross. We have already been made clean by his atonement. By the grace that we have accepted through faith. If I died today, I would be with my father in heaven (like the thief on the cross next to Christ or the martyrs talked about in Revelation).

God does indeed use sufferring to build us up and mold us into the likeness of his son (I actually preached a sermon on that in 1 Peter 4:12-19) but we are saved by grace through faith. Not by punishments and sufferings that we endure.

I didn’t say they merit our salvation. I said they affect our soul, which is why we suffer. I suggest meditation on 1 Cor 3… especially where it says

But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.