Help explaining Purgatory and Christ's Sacrafice

[fellside]

fellside,

You fail to recognize that all of the OT saints including David were saved by the salvific work of Jesus.

No, I’m not a dispensationalist. I do realize this.

Even though this is true, David still had consequences attached to his sin. Nathan even tells David that his sin is forgiven, but quite pointedly tells him that a punishment will be forth coming. If Christ paid the entire penalty(both temporal and eternal) for David’s sin as well as ours then David would not have suffered this consequence. The problem with your thinking is that you are mistaken about the penalty. The penalty that Jesus paid is for the eternal consequences. There still exist temporal penalties. Scripture even says that the Father chastises his children.

An NT example that goes against your thinking is found in the book of Acts concerning Simon the Magician.[see Acts Chapter 8] In this narrative we are told that Simon “believed” and was also baptized. Subsequent to his becoming a Christian, he saw that the apostles passed on power through the laying on of hands. Simon desired this power and tried to buy it from the apostles. Naturally, he was refused and Peter gives him the following rebuke:

Acts 8:20-23
But Peter said to him, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”

Simon was so frightened by this that he responds in verse 24 saying:

“Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Likewise we read about Annanias and Sophia who were clearly saved Christians. They, however, let Satan convince them to lie to the Holy Spirit. The penalty for this was their deaths.[Acts 5:1-10]

Verse 11 then says: “And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things.”

Apparently, everyone in the early Church realized that there was a penalty for sin in the NT church just as there was a penalty for sin in the OT example of David. There are other NT passages that also show that there is penalty for sin for the members of the body of Christ.

I hope this helps.

I think there is a difference between God bringing punishments upon believers to build them up and discipline them… and God punnishing believers in order that they can become “good enough” for Heaven.

The punishment that God gave David, was not given because Christ’s work was insufficent, it was given so that David would be disciplined. I don’t think this leads to the conclusion that believers must undergo punishment before we can be accepted into heaven.

 

[Coder]

Protestant Argument:
“However, if Purgatory is real, then people are made perfect by their own punishment, not Christ’s atonement.”

I think Purgatory allows us to more fully appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice and be perfected in both gratefulness for His sacrifice and in love for Jesus.

Also St. Paul refers to the value of our own suffering and explains that this does not mean anything was lacking in Christ’s suffering. This is a clear refutation of the above Protestant line of reasoning.

 

[Pax]

The sufferring that believers encounter from temporal effects of original sin, are not salvific. Or in other words, those sufferings are not what merit our salvation.

When God looks at his elect, he sees the work of Christ on the cross. We have already been made clean by his atonement. By the grace that we have accepted through faith. If I died today, I would be with my father in heaven (like the thief on the cross next to Christ or the martyrs talked about in Revelation).

God does indeed use sufferring to build us up and mold us into the likeness of his son (I actually preached a sermon on that in 1 Peter 4:12-19) but we are saved by grace through faith. Not by punishments and sufferings that we endure.

Your last sentence is what lies at the foundation of your misunderstandings. Sola fide is an error. James 2:24 says quite directly that “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” This verse cannot be spun and no matter what you have been taught about Paul’s teaching you will never find a quotation from Paul that says that we are saved by faith alone.

One of the most important passages in the NT that ties Paul and James together is, IMHO, Eph 2:8-10 which says:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Protestants and Catholics rightly point out that we are brought into our initial state of justification purely by God’s grace and gift of faith as opposed to anything that we have done up until that point in time. Beyond this, Catholics and Protestants begin to disagree. Verse ten means a tremendous amount to Catholics when it comes to justification but seems to mean little or nothing to Protestants. When we are justified we are born again, and we are a new creation. We then live in the spirit and no longer in the flesh.

When Paul says “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” he is saying what James is saying and what Catholics fully embrace. The works James speaks of that justify us are the same that Paul speaks of in Ephesians. What we do as part of our justification is the result of being a new creation in Christ Jesus for “good works.” The works that we do are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. Moreover, Paul tells us that these works were prepared for us by God beforehand. In other words these works were prepared for us even before we were justified.

Paul tells us that God’s purpose is that we “…be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.” God’s grace is transforming and is filled with power. Catholics do not take credit for our works as if we earn our way into heaven. Instead we recognize the necessity of works for salvation because they are prepared by God and that we are enabled by God to do them in Jesus name. It is as Paul says in 2 Cor 3:5: “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God,” Works are an essential part of justification and salvation. The credit for works, however, goes to God just as the credit for our gift of faith goes to God. Both are by grace and both are required.

 

[fellside]

Protestant Argument:
“However, if Purgatory is real, then people are made perfect by their own punishment, not Christ’s atonement.”

I think Purgatory allows us to more fully appreciate Jesus’ sacrifice and be perfected in both gratefulness for His sacrifice and in love for Jesus.

Also St. Paul speaks of uniting our suffering with Jesus and explains that this does not mean anything was lacking Christ’s suffering. This is a clear refutation of the above Protestant line of reasoning.

The problem is, you read this and assume that he is referring to purgatory. However there is no reason to believe that when Paul says this (In Colossians 2 I believe) that he is referring to purgatory.

The suffering that Paul is speaking of is the privelage that we believers have to suffer with Christ. Not sufferring to make ourselves worthy of salvation, but suffering to unite with Christ. Sufferings that build us up in Christ-Likeness. I don’t think this leads to a doctrine of purgatory though.

 

[fellside]

Pax, although I think we have gotten slightly off topic, I’d like to explain to you my view on James said in light of what Paul said.

Ephesians 2:8-9
“8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

James 2:17
“17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”

We, as believers, are saved BY grace THROUGH faith, not by our works. The thing is, if we are really God’s chilren, if we truely have faith in Christ, our lives WILL produce works and bear fruit. If someone claims to have faith in Christ, yet shows no evidence of a desire to follow after him, or any conviction from the Holy Spirit, then it seems to be a fair assesment that they don’t have true faith.

This does not mean however, that we are saved by grace AND works. Christ’s blood was sufficent. We accept his gift of salvation through faith and works are the evidence of that salvation. They are not the means by which we become saved.

But again, I would agree that believers must have works in their lives, because we have been created for good works. I don’t think this means we can lose our salvation though.

 

[Pax]

No, I’m not a dispensationalist. I do realize this.

I think there is a difference between God bringing punishments upon believers to build them up and discipline them… and God punnishing believers in order that they can become “good enough” for Heaven.

The punishment that God gave David, was not given because Christ’s work was insufficent, it was given so that David would be disciplined. I don’t think this leads to the conclusion that believers must undergo punishment before we can be accepted into heaven.

Your response does not explain David’s punishment as a consequence of his sin. Moreover, you have said nothing to explain the issue as it pertains to Simon the Magician or Ananias and Sapphira.

You cannot get into heaven if you bring an attachment to sin along with you. Pride, envy, etc are all things of the intellect and spirit. They are unclean things and cannot be brought with us into heaven. Somehow, things like this must be purged from us before entering heaven. This is done through the process of sanctification. Sanctification is a life long process that is accomplished by the grace of God. The following verses should help to confirm that:

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

You simply need to look upon purgatory as our final sanctification which is accomplished by the grace of God through the merits of Jesus work on the cross.

 

[Pax]

Pax, although I think we have gotten slightly off topic, I’d like to explain to you my view on James said in light of what Paul said.

Ephesians 2:8-9
“8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

James 2:17
“17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.”

We, as believers, are saved BY grace THROUGH faith, not by our works. The thing is, if we are really God’s chilren, if we truely have faith in Christ, our lives WILL produce works and bear fruit. If someone claims to have faith in Christ, yet shows no evidence of a desire to follow after him, or any conviction from the Holy Spirit, then it seems to be a fair assesment that they don’t have true faith.

This does not mean however, that we are saved by grace AND works. Christ’s blood was sufficent. We accept his gift of salvation and works are the evidence of that salvation. That are not the means by which we become saved.

But again, I would agree that believers must have works in their lives, because we have been created for good works. I don’t think this means we can lose our salvation though.

I have gone through an extensive argument with non-Catholics over at the CARM forums concerning works simply being “evidence” of our faith. There is nothing in James’ statements concerning faith and works that can be used to establish this contention. This is made completely clear because James says many things that deny the idea. First of all he says that “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Secondly, he uses the analogy of body and soul to illustrate the relationship of faith and works in justification. In verse 26 James says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” The body and spirit are a composite that forms a human being. Faith and works are a necessary composite that makes for justification. In the apostle’s analogy the body is the counterpart of faith and works are made the counterpart of the spirit. This analogy does not allow for works to be understood as being merely demonstrative or for simply being the “evidence” of one’s faith.

 

[fellside]

Your response does not explain David’s punishment as a consequence of his sin. Moreover, you have said nothing to explain the issue as it pertains to Simon the Magician or Ananias and Sapphira.

Slow down there partner. If you haven’t noticed, there is one protestant in this thread and many Catholics. You must be patient with me, especially if you want me to respond to long posts. Not every detail that I have stressed has been addressed, nad not every detail that you have stressed has been addressed by me. I’ll try to give you a sufficent answer.

There are indeed consequences to our sin. I’m not denying that. For example, if someone has sex out of marriage, yes they have been forgiven of it, but there might be scars that stay with them throughout their lives because of their sin. I’m not denying that.

What I am denying is that these consequences are salvific. They are used to discipline us, not make us save-able.

As for Ananias and Sapphira and Simon the magician, I don’t see why it is so obvious to you that they are believers. Just because they were with other Chrisitans doesn’t mean they were truely saved. While they very well could have been, I don’t see what leads to your position that it’s obvious. Regardless, I don’t see how their deaths relate to a place where saints undergo purification.

You cannot get into heaven if you bring an attachment to sin along with you. Pride, envy, etc are all things of the intellect and spirit. They are unclean things and cannot be brought with us into heaven. Somehow, things like this must be purged from us before entering heaven. This is done through the process of sanctification. Sanctification is a life long process that is accomplished by the grace of God. The following verses should help to confirm that:

You simply need to look upon purgatory as our final sanctification which is accomplished by the grace of God through the merits of Jesus work on the cross.

I simply don’t see any reason to believe that purgatory is this final sanctification. Scriputre certainly does not argue for purgatory.

Our complete sanctfication happens after death, but there is no biblical support that this happens with thousands of years of torture or punishment.

 

[Pax]

The problem is, you read this and assume that he is referring to purgatory. However there is no reason to believe that when Paul says this (In Colossians 2 I believe) that he is referring to purgatory.

The suffering that Paul is speaking of is the privelage that we believers have to suffer with Christ. Not sufferring to make ourselves worthy of salvation, but suffering to unite with Christ. Sufferings that build us up in Christ-Likeness. I don’t think this leads to a doctrine of purgatory though.

Colossians 1:24 says:
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

While this passage does not IMHO specifically address purgatory it says something about our participation in the divine plan that is consistent with Catholic teaching but seemingly not with Protestant teaching as it applies to Christ’s work on the cross. While Jesus is the one mediator between God and Man, we nevertheless, participate in subordinate forms of mediation that are totally dependent upon the work of Christ. We, for example, actually convey grace to others. This is made clear in Eph 4:29 which says:

“Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear.”

There are other passages of scripture that show how we “participate” in the work of Christ. Moreover, there are many passages that show the value of suffering.

Here are some important examples:

In Rom 8:24 Paul says, “For we are saved by hope”[KJV] and he also says in Rom 5:3-5 "…we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.

Paul also says this about suffering:

Rom 8:17
“…and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, **provided we suffer with him **in order that we may also be glorified with him.”

Jesus says in Luke 9:23
“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

Suffering has a place in our salvation because it has a part in our sanctification.

I hope this helps.

 

[fellside]

I have gone through an extensive argument with non-Catholics over at the CARM forums concerning works simply being “evidence” of our faith. There is nothing in James’ statements concerning faith and works that can be used to establish this contention. This is made completely clear because James says many things that deny the idea. First of all he says that “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

James had been talking about Abraham, just as Paul referred to him in Galations 5. Here in chapter 2, verse 21 James is answering the question: Does the ongoing and final reckoning of Abraham’s righteousness depend on works as the necessary evidence of true and living faith? James’ answer to that question is Yes. And Paul’s answer is also Yes, in Galatians 5:6 (the only thing that counts is “faith working through love”). If you ask James and Paul, “How does an ungodly person get right with God and receive the righteousness of God in Christ as a gift?” both James and Paul would answer with the words of James 2:23: “Trust God and that faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.”

Secondly, he uses the analogy of body and soul to illustrate the relationship of faith and works in justification. In verse 26 James says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” The body and spirit are a composite that forms a human being. Faith and works are a necessary composite that makes for justification. In the apostle’s analogy the body is the counterpart of faith and works are made the counterpart of the spirit. This analogy does not allow for works to be understood as being merely demonstrative or for simply being the “evidence” of one’s faith.

Just because I believe that works are an evidence of salvation, does not mean that I don’t think they are necessary. As a matter of fact, I already told you that I thought they were necessary. I said that if someone claims to have faith in Christ, yet their lives bear no fruit, then they should be treated as a lost person.

Works are a necessary part of a Christian’s life. But they do not save us.

 

[sara888]

**Fellside,

Christ’s parable about Lazarus and the rich man is unmistakable. When the rich man (tradition has him as Dives) begged Abraham for some relief from his sufferings, he was told, "My son, remember that during your life good things came your way, just as bad things came the way of Lazarus. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony.

But that is not all: between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to stop anyone, if he wanted to, crossing from our side to yours, and to stop any crossing from your side to ours" (Lk. 16:22-31). Further, Dives asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers and warn them, in order to save them from the torment that he was experiencing. Where was Dives who had compassion and love for his five brothers?

It is generally understood that there is no love in Gehenna, only complete and perfect hatred. He obviously, was not in either Heaven or Paradise. Since the rich man had love and compassion for his brothers, it would indicate that he was not in Gehenna. And please note that he was able to converse with Abraham; this would indicate that he was in the second level of the abode of the dead, or Purgatory

A final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven

God claims, nothing unclean or unholy may enter into the Kingdom.**

Angeljan

 

[fellside]

I think we need to back up, because we seem to be agreeing on some things that we think we’re disagreeing on. I agree with you that suffering takes a part in sanctification. Suffering is a very important part of the Christian life.

I said amen to myself whie reading all of those verses that you cited, the one in Luke 9 is actually my college ministries theme. However, I don’t see Biblical support for these sufferings taking place after death.

But you have changed my mind on something. Purgatory is less… disgusting to me now that you have better explained it to me. No offense to Zach and Tony, but they made it seem as though purgatory was less sanctification and more… man having to pay penatlies for sin that Christ didn’t really pay for. At least that’s how it came off to me.

I still however don’t see purgatory in scripture and will not affirm it until I do. There is a difference between suffering here on earth for Christ, in order to unite with him, and suffering after death so that we can be clean enough to enter heaven.

Thank you for you time and insight so far.

Edit: I’m not going to be back for a while. I have a lot of studying to do this weekend. But I want to meditate some more on the verses we have discussed and talk more later.

David

 

[Pax]

Slow down there partner. If you haven’t noticed, there is one protestant in this thread and many Catholics. You must be patient with me, especially if you want me to respond to long posts. Not every detail that I have stressed has been addressed, nad not every detail that you have stressed has been addressed by me. I’ll try to give you a sufficent answer.

Quite true…your point is well taken.

There are indeed consequences to our sin. I’m not denying that. For example, if someone has sex out of marriage, yes they have been forgiven of it, but there might be scars that stay with them throughout their lives because of their sin. I’m not denying that.

What I am denying is that these consequences are salvific. They are used to discipline us, not make us save-able.

Your contention was that all sin and punishment has been nailed to the cross and that we won’t be punished for anything that we have done if we are saved.

As for Ananias and Sapphira and Simon the magician, I don’t see why it is so obvious to you that they are believers. Just because they were with other Chrisitans doesn’t mean they were truely saved. While they very well could have been, I don’t see what leads to your position that it’s obvious. Regardless, I don’t see how their deaths relate to a place where saints undergo purification.

First of all, Protestant theology says that we are saved by faith alone. Ananias and Sapphira were believers or they could not have lied to the Holy Spirit. Scripture specifically says that Simon “believed”[Acts 8:13]

The deaths of Ananias and Sapphira and the threat of punishment and the need for repentence on the part of Simon clearly demonstrate that there is something wrong with Protestant teaching which denies punishment for believers. The temporal consequences for sin must be punished in order to satisfy God’s perfect justice and to assist the sinner in removing his/her attachments to sin. You simply cannot take those things with you into the presence of God. Isaiah clearly showed his reaction in the heavenly presence and knew that he was unclean. Isaiah is clearly one righteous and saved man from the OT, yet he recognized that he needed to be cleansed of his imperfections.

I simply don’t see any reason to believe that purgatory is this final sanctification. Scriputre certainly does not argue for purgatory.

We have argued for purgatory from scripture and I believe that scripture firmly supports it. The word purgatory isn’t in scripture but neither is the word “Trinity.” At least you are now aware of why Catholics have good reason to believe by way of scripture.

Our complete sanctfication happens after death, but there is no biblical support that this happens with thousands of years of torture or punishment.

You now agree but misunderstand. No one claims that you spend thousands of years of torture in purgatory. Our final sanctification/purging could very well be instantaneous but there is no reason why it couldn’t have duration or varying intensity depending upon the person. Torture it is not. Those in purgatory know that they are at the threshold of seeing God face to face. The pain and suffering is the result of knowing that they are separated temporarily from Him who is perfect love. Their pain is perhaps similar to the pain and sorrow of one who pines for another or who has suffered loss by separation from the spouse whom they deeply love. The difference in the level of discomfort, however, is tremendous because it is God for whom we truly long, and it is for God that we were made. He is no mere earthly spouse or loved one.

Another thing to think about is how God’s love is described in scripture. God’s love is a consuming fire. When we approach God we approach an unimaginable consuming fire. We must be fully prepared to be in that incredible presence.

 

[zachh]

Slow down there partner. If you haven’t noticed, there is one protestant in this thread and many Catholics. You must be patient with me, especially if you want me to respond to long posts.

Now you know how I feel.

 

[Pax]

James had been talking about Abraham, just as Paul referred to him in Galations 5. Here in chapter 2, verse 21 James is answering the question: Does the ongoing and final reckoning of Abraham’s righteousness depend on works as the necessary evidence of true and living faith? James’ answer to that question is Yes. And Paul’s answer is also Yes, in Galatians 5:6 (the only thing that counts is “faith working through love”). If you ask James and Paul, “How does an ungodly person get right with God and receive the righteousness of God in Christ as a gift?” both James and Paul would answer with the words of James 2:23: “Trust God and that faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.”

Just because I believe that works are an evidence of salvation, does not mean that I don’t think they are necessary. As a matter of fact, I already told you that I thought they were necessary. I said that if someone claims to have faith in Christ, yet their lives bear no fruit, then they should be treated as a lost person.

Works are a necessary part of a Christian’s life. But they do not save us.

This would ring true if James said something that would indicate that works are “evidence” but he does not. His language is quite different. Please demonstrate how James is saying what you claim. I fail to see anything that indicates that he is arguing works as “evidence” of faith. If you can demonstrate this in an analysis of James words that we are “justified by faith…” and explain his analogy of the body and soul as indicative that works are evidence of faith then I will be persuaded.

I am glad that we share the common ground that works are necessary, but I do not understand why they are necessary if they don’t justify us.

 

[Coder]

Hi,

The problem is, you read this and assume that he is referring to purgatory. However there is no reason to believe that when Paul says this (In Colossians 2 I believe) that he is referring to purgatory.

I don’t see how he is excluding it. He was (should I say “is”?) Catholic and following the sacred apostolic and authoritative Tradition that has been conferred to the Church today. It may be reasonable to apply this to purgatory unless there are other Scriptural/Traditional reasons not to. Note that I refer here to the teaching regarding suffering not the doctrine of purgatory which itself is Scriptural. Catholic Answers has Bible references including the one in which Jesus refers to sin that will not be forgiven in the age to come.

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

I don’t think this leads to a doctrine of purgatory though.

I think it shows the unreasonableness of denying purgatory based on the punishment argument that the Protestant was using,

Thank You

 

[Pax]

Now you know how I feel.

I share your pain…I’ve spent many an hour discussing things with our brothers and sisters at CARM.

 

[Pax]

I think we need to back up, because we seem to be agreeing on some things that we think we’re disagreeing on. I agree with you that suffering takes a part in sanctification. Suffering is a very important part of the Christian life.

I said amen to myself whie reading all of those verses that you cited, the one in Luke 9 is actually my college ministries theme. However, I don’t see Biblical support for these sufferings taking place after death.

But you have changed my mind on something. Purgatory is less… disgusting to me now that you have better explained it to me. No offense to Zach and Tony, but they made it seem as though purgatory was less sanctification and more… man having to pay penatlies for sin that Christ didn’t really pay for. At least that’s how it came off to me.

I still however don’t see purgatory in scripture and will not affirm it until I do. There is a difference between suffering here on earth for Christ, in order to unite with him, and suffering after death so that we can be clean enough to enter heaven.

Thank you for you time and insight so far.

Edit: I’m not going to be back for a while. I have a lot of studying to do this weekend. But I want to meditate some more on the verses we have discussed and talk more later.

David

Wonderful post…it is extremely gratifying to see your understanding and appreciation whether you agree or not. This is so important for all of us as we deal with one another. God bless you.

 

[havemercy]

I share your pain…I’ve spent many an hour discussing things with our brothers and sisters at CARM.

And then you were banned.

 

[BigDL75]

Just wondering here: what about when Jesus told the “good thief” next to him on the cross that he would be with him in paradise today? This seems to imply that the thief does not go to purgatory. So does this imply that purgatory does not exist? Or does it merely imply that this thief did not have to go there? Or does it imply that “today” might mean a different thing to Jesus than to us?