Help explaining Purgatory and Christ's Sacrafice

[TobyLue]

fellside said:

There are indeed consequences to our sin. I’m not denying that. For example, if someone has sex out of marriage, yes they have been forgiven of it, but there might be scars that stay with them throughout their lives because of their sin. I’m not denying that.

My question would then be: What happens to those scars when those people die? Those scars still have left them unclean. They cannot enter heaven still with those scars. The scars are the consequences of their sin. Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven. So will those people go to hell? No…. This is why the belief of Purgatory is such a beautiful and wonderful doctrine because we know that once in Purgatory, we surely will enter heaven clean as a whistle.

Think of it this way too; if I go to your house and throw a brick through one of your windows and get a baseball bat and smash the headlights of your car and I really feel rotten and bad about my actions I can go and ask you for forgiveness. You being such a wonderful Christian and full of love will of course forgive me. Can I just walk away since you have already forgiven me? I assume I can but what about the broken window and the smashed headlights. Surely, you would want me to dish out the $$ to get them fixed. You forgive me but my consequences remain. I should make everything perfect by making sure I suffer for my misdeeds. When somebody commit a crime and is caught that person may really regret his actions and ask for forgiveness, however because of the consequences he will probably go to jail.
Protestants think that the CC teaches that purgatory is a second chance. It’s not that at all. Like you quoted above; someone who had sex outside of marriage and has repented and asked God for forgiveness has been saved by the merits of Jesus’ crucifixion and victory on the cross. But as you well stated, the consequences have remained and if we have not dealt with the consequences as Jesus said in Matt “….thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” We know that if someone goes to hell, they will never, ever for all eternity, be able to get out. So that “prison” is purgatory. Also think of it this way. We are sure that we are going to see Jesus’ and we want to be sure that we get rid of, as you said, the “scars” and purgatory is getting rid of those scars.

 

[TobyLue]

Just wondering here: what about when Jesus told the “good thief” next to him on the cross that he would be with him in paradise today? This seems to imply that the thief does not go to purgatory. So does this imply that purgatory does not exist? Or does it merely imply that this thief did not have to go there?

But does scripture say that Jesus ascended to heaven the day he died? Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and rose on the third day. To be with Jesus’ would really be paradise. So my thinking is that the good thief when along with Jesus.

Or does it imply that “today” might mean a different thing to Jesus than to us?

Remember, a day to God is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to God.

 

[Pax]

And then you were banned.

In fairness to CARM I must say that as it turns out I have not been banned from…only my IP address has been banned. I contacted CARM’s Administrator and was told that CARM has been under attack by hackers and that a large number of IP addresses were banned. Apparently this was done to protect their forum but inadvertantly clobbered some innocent IP’s. This is hopefully going to get resolved otherwise I will not be posting over there.

I like participating over there but I feel much more at home here…afterall this is Catholic country.

 

[Pax]

Just wondering here: what about when Jesus told the “good thief” next to him on the cross that he would be with him in paradise today? This seems to imply that the thief does not go to purgatory. So does this imply that purgatory does not exist? Or does it merely imply that this thief did not have to go there? Or does it imply that “today” might mean a different thing to Jesus than to us?

We do not know with any certainty the answers to your questions. Clearly, paradise would not refer to heaven if Jesus was referring to the day that they both died. At that point the gates of heaven remained closed and were not opened until after the resurrection. In any case the good thief may have received his final sanctification as part of his crucifixion along side Jesus.

In the Greek there is no punctuation to tell us what is meant by the word “today” in the context of the good thief. It could mean that very day or Jesus may have been saying “Truly, I say to you today [as in *I’m telling you right now] you will be with me in Paradise.”

Personally, I believe that the good thief was forgiven and freed from any attachment to sin while on the cross along side Jesus, and that all temporal consequences and punishment for his sins were taken care of in the same fashion. Jesus, of course, paid the price for the eternal consequences of the man’s sins and provided redemption for him. If you were to be hung upon a cross and crucified you could not be in better company than that of Jesus.

 

[Loren_1of6]

If our sins are nailed to the cross (as the scripture I sourced says) then why do we need to be punished for our sins? Christ became a curse for us and satisfied the Father.

Fellside, I think you misunderstand Purgatory.

As a parent I have certain rules. One of these is “Do not run in the house.” My son runs in the house and slams into his brother, knocking him down and bruising his own body. No matter how many times he has done this in the past, I still forgive my son and allow him to be part of my family and take care of his needs.

This forgiveness is not, however, the end of things. The act of disobedience brings with it certain natural consequences. The first and most natural in this example is the pain that comes from his bruised body. The other consequences include the time out or the spanking or the increased chores and, of course, the apology to his brother. These are not meant as a punishment to vent my anger at his actions but as reminders to him to behave. If I do not hold my children accountable for their actions and choices they will learn that I can be counted on to let them slide. I would be doing them an enormous disservice.

Just so, all sin brings with it certain consequences. Just because God forgives our sins does not mean that He removes the consequences of those sins. These consequences include the soiling of the soul and separation from God. Death does not cleanse our soul or prepare us to join God in Heaven. Purgatory is the way God has given us to bring our souls’ desires into union with His. It is the place for us to be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

God is a loving parent, and as such seeks only what is best for us. He knows that wiping away all consequences of our sinful actions would lead us into complacency.

 

[Pax]

…
…
“How does an ungodly person get right with God and receive the righteousness of God in Christ as a gift?” both James and Paul would answer with the words of James 2:23: “Trust God and that faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.”
…
…

You are severly misquoting/paraphrasing James 2:23. The verse reads as follows:

“and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.”

Please notice that the verse does not say that “faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.” Furthermore, the first part of the verse says, “and the scripture was fullfilled which says,…” This is a reference to verse 22 which says, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,”

Please notice that faith was **completed **by works. This does not mean that works were evidence of faith nor does it in anyway indicate that we are justified by faith alone. James is simply hammering harder on his point to get the reader to understand the relationship of faith and works…that is that we are “justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[Philthy]

You misunderstood me. I am not trying to make an excuse for msyelf. I AM a sinner. I am guilty for every sin that I commit. I feel conviction from the Holy Spirit every single time I sin, and I feel disgusting and un-deserving. I deserve nothing more than Hell, yet God saved me by Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Yet we as believers are new creations. We have been crucified with Christ, and it is now Christ that lives within us.
I don’t see how you got the idea that I don’t think it’s my fault.

Also, I find it ironic that you think I’m taking away from the work of Christ… when I thought it was clear that you guys were. I am saying that Christ’s work was sufficent.

Stop right there. Do you want to know how you have minimized Christ Sacrifice and the Grace that flows from it?

• You don’t believe His Grace is sufficient for you to overcome sin in this life. Plain and simple. You chalk it up to the fact that because you have a body not only will you be attracted to sin, but you will sin.
• You dont take 1 Cor 10-13 in complete trust that “God will provide a way out”.

fellside:

You’re saying that it was insufficent (regardless of what semantics are used to avoid this language) and that we are required to work and be punished to make his work mean anything.

Actually you said the same thing, only you’ll color it differently you’ll say that a “saving faith will produce works” but you won’t agree to the logical negative that without works you have no saving faith. James said it best: “If a man says he has faith but has no works will that faith save him?” I’d give that some serious thought - do we know we have faith apart from works. Hint: Do you know a tree apart from it’s fruit?

fellside:

Christ’s died for the sins of the whole word, but his gift of salvation must be accepted through faith. After all we are saved “by grace, through faith.”

It is a little frustrating that you ignored the body of my post - but you are outnumbered so I understand. I’ll repeat this point:
If Christ paid for the sins of the whole world and God accepted that payment, then why do unrepentant sinners still get punished by God? Is God being paid twice for some sins?
The other, very significant point I made was that Purgatory is the process (not place) by which Christ’s work on the Cross is applied to all of us when we die to complete our Sanctification. That’s all it is - its a word for that process and it comes from the same root as the english word to “purge” or cleanse. As CSLewis said, it is a harmless doctrine.

 

[Philthy]

Our complete sanctfication happens after death,

We can end the thread right here - this is what Purgatory is. Do you have a better name for it or do you just like being argumentative?!
The various descriptions of the process are, I believe, from private revelation of various Saints and/or mystics. That isnt really worth arguing about once you agree that the process occurs.

 

[Philthy]

If you ask James and Paul, “How does an ungodly person get right with God and receive the righteousness of God in Christ as a gift?” both James and Paul would answer with the words of James 2:23: “Trust God and that faith alone will be reckoned as righteousness.”

We are definitely OT - but I don’t think they would ever use the words faith alone in that way. Being saved and being "reckoned (or credited) as righteousness may not be one and the same. Further, Genesis specifically records that God rewarded Abraham because *after *Abraham went to offer Isaac on the altar God then knew Abrahams faith. He didn’t just read his heart as most would imply you mean by “trusting God with faith alone”. Nope, that’s not what Scripture says. It records Abraham acting on his faith and God then declaring “now I know” your faith, and that “because you acted as you did” I will bless you.

fellside:

Just because I believe that works are an evidence of salvation, does not mean that I don’t think they are necessary. As a matter of fact, I already told you that I thought they were necessary. I said that if someone claims to have faith in Christ, yet their lives bear no fruit, then they should be treated as a lost person.
Works are a necessary part of a Christian’s life. But they do not save us.

Truly a pointless distinction, and I say that with all due respect. No one claims salvation is by works alone. However if works are “necessary”, as you say, then faith alone - if that means faith without works - is useless or at the very least un-necessary. If a man says he has faith but has not works, will that faith save him? No it will not.

 

[Michael_G]

I am having a difficult time summarizing the Catholic view on Purgatory and Christ’s Sacrafice to a Protestant. Here is his main argument:

I posted this before the board went down, so I’m sorry if someone gives the same response. Thank you, though, for your responses.

part I
Purgatory
Scripture teaches the necessity of cleansing- purging of souls upon death from all sin, and all attachments to the world-Purification of Souls

In arriving at any great truth or doctrine as given in Scripture it is **absolutely necessary to take all **Scripture pertaining to a given truth or doctrine into account…

Scripture teaches us that Christs passion and death is for the forgivness of sins and our redemption: Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; /Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. But does this remove any responsibility on our part to make amends/restitution, does this remove God’s justice towards us? Does this preclude any personal expiation for our sins. If that were true than suffering which is due to sin would no longer occur in the world in which we live.

There is no question that Christ passion and Death is for our redemption,-- Christs work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter.
When one considers the below passages in conjucntion with the passages just mention one ought to arrive that the true teaching of Christ’s passion and death for our forgivness, redemption etc.— is to open up the gates of heaven, and remove the penalty of sin which is eternal death, damnation to hell. It does not remove all responsibility on our part in failing to abide in the graces God gives us in our daily lives. See Scriptural passages below.

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1 Corinthians 3:14-15,“if his work abides which he has built thereon he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved yet so as through fire.****” Heaven has no fire, and Hell is forever, Purgatory only explaintion

Isa 6: 5-8 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and … Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his … And he laid it upon my mouth, …thy sin purged.****

Some say, " God does not demand expiation after having forgiven sins." : God Sent Nathan with a message; " the Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. "But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die"-( consequence of David’s sin-expiation-just punisment for sins, forgiveness does not necessarily remove just punishment) (2 Sam 12:14)

**
**
"Not all Sin is deadly " (causes eternal damnation) (1 John 5:17)

Colossians 1:24, “**I rejoice now in the sufferings I bear **for your sake; and **what is lacking of the sufferings of Christ **.” Is Paul saying that we all are accountable for our sins that Christ’s death is not the totality all by itself for making us perfectly clean? Does Christ give us the privilege of particpating in His redemptive work?;

2Co 5:18 … given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

called to intercede for one another through Christ.
1Ti 2:1 …** prayers, intercessions**and thanksgivings be made for all men:

Mat 12:36 …every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.

Matthew 5:25-26, & 48,"come to terms with thy opponent quickly while thou art with on the way lest thy opponent deliver thee to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Amen I say to thee, thou wilt not come out from it until thou hast paid the last penny. (the judge is God, the prison is the place of purging, of cleansing, the releasing or coming out of prison cannot occur if one is sent to hell, see church fathers below)

 

[Michael_G]

I am having a difficult time summarizing the Catholic view on Purgatory and Christ’s Sacrafice to a Protestant. Here is his main argument:

I posted this before the board went down, so I’m sorry if someone gives the same response. Thank you, though, for your responses.

Part II
**
Mal 3:2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like thc fuller’s herb: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify** the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.
**
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried.**

Heb: 12:23 (Pugation)-the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - **without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, **and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory

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If the atonement for all sins is total, abosolute and complete absolving all believers of all accountability and responsibility for our sins then the following passages become meaningless:

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves for charity shall cover the multitude of sins 1 Peter 4:8

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Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

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Dan 4:24, Therefore o King, take my advice; atone for your sins by doing good deeds, and for your misdeeds by kindness to the poor; then your prosperity will be long.

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**Purgatory and Prayers for the deceased;?
2 Timothy 1:16-18, “May the Lord grant mercy to the house of onesiphorus, because he often comforted me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he came to Rome, he sought me out diligently and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And thou knowest very well the many services he rendered me at Ephesus.” ( Onesiphorus is spoken of as now dead; he was an official of the church at ephsus.)
**
2 Tim 1:18 fromfrom the UBS Handbook Series. Copyright © 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)
The eschatological tone of the verse has created some problems in interpreting it. The difficulty arises because the verse does not explicitly say that Onesiphorus was alive at the time the letter was written; there is therefore a possibility that he could have been dead by that time. This position is supported by verse 16, where a blessing is pronounced on Onesiphorus’ family but not directly on Onesiphorus himself. Furthermore, the blessing pronounced for Onesiphorus is not for the present but for the future, that is, the final day of judgment. Accordingly some interpreters support the position that Onesiphorus was dead when this letter was written. But if this is correct, then how does one take the blessing pronounced on Onesiphorus? If it is taken as a prayer (for the subjunctive form, see discussion on 2 Tim 1:16), then this would be a prayer for someone who is already dead

 

[Michael_G]

I am having a difficult time summarizing the Catholic view on Purgatory and Christ’s Sacrafice to a Protestant. Here is his main argument:

I posted this before the board went down, so I’m sorry if someone gives the same response. Thank you, though, for your responses.

Part III

(all Christians outside of the Catholic Church do not accept these books but it was part of the of the Greek Septuagent which Christ and the Apostles used, and were not declared noncannical books of Old Testament by the Jews until the end of the first century AD, and they were not delcared none cannonical by anybody within the Christian community until after 1500- therefore they at least deserve some consideration to Jewish teachings since Jews to this day still offer up prayers for there dead in believing that some souls are required to go through a cleansing process before entrance into the Kingdom of heaven. )
2 Machabees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent 12,000 drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of dead, thing well and religiously concerning the resurrection.” ( fundamentalists do not accept the inspiration of 2 Machabees from the old Testament, of course, but they must admit it reflects the religious views of the Jews shortly before the New Testament times.)
Sirach 7:8, "Do not plot to repeat a sin; not even for one will you go unpunished"-(compare to Mat 12:36) Sirach 7:37, “be generous to all the living, and withhold not your kindness from the dead.”
Tobias 4:10, 12,9 "almsgiving saves one from death and expiates every sin"- Compare to Proverbs 10:12, 1Pt 4:8, Dan 4:24

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Prayers for the dead would be useless unless their is place to go before heaven in order to be cleansed.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-

 

[Michael_G]

Try this: How to explain Purgatory to Protestants

Pertinent quote:

Part IV
Just a few of the many quotes from Apostolic Church Fathers

Church Fathers

Church Fathers have the most authentic commentary/exegesis of Scripture… Why?? First we were not there to hear and see everything and can easily be fooled into reading something not there, into Scripture or reading something out of Scripture. The secondly Some of the Fathers were trained by the Apostles and the preceding Fathers are closer to the time frame allowing for less corruption of the teachings to occur. We are 2,000 years removed from the original source. Second and Most Important is that Scripture is clear on this and is repeated often by Paul that we are to pay attention to both the Sacred Oral word as well as the Sacred Written word passed down. One of the reasons Pauls tells to pay attention to the Oral teachings is because John tells us that everything has not been written down.

John 21:25, “There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these would be written not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written.” (Not everything concerning Christ is in the Scripture per John)

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

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Matthew 5:25-26, & 48,"come to terms with thy opponent quickly while…
**According the Haydock commentary on scripture:-**Ver. 25. & 26. Agree whilst you are in the way, or wayfaring men, i.e. in this life, lest you be cast into prison, i.e. according to Sts. Cyprian, Ambrose, and Origen, into purgatory. (Haydock)

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him,'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off ( Mat5:25-26, & 48,}in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian,A Treatise on the Soul,35(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:216

And **you shall by no means come out thence till you have paid the uttermost farthing,3673 that is, till you have expiated your most trifling sins; for we shall give account of every idle word in the day of judgment.**3674 MAT 5:25Letter CXXX. To Demetrias. JEROME

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones(1 Cor.,3:11-15);but also wood and hay and stubble,what do you expect when the soul shall be seperated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God;…. for ***our God ***to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. …It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our trangressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works."
Origen,Homilies on Jeremias,PG 13:445,448(A.D. 244),in CE,577

 

[flewen]

wait, would you mind to emphasize first in Matthew 2:21-26 in the Roman Catholic defense on purgatory? because as I researched in the other website, this was his explanatin on the verses of Matthew 5:21-26…

MATTHEW 5:21-26:

*You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother**will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d] **

Now, let’s try to examine the first paragraph:
You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Here, we can see that the topic speaks of judgment. It speaks of two kinds of judgment: [1] Temporal/Earthly, [2] Eternal (v.22). Jesus presented a deeper view of sin which portrays a deeper accountability and a deeper punishment, when He said “You have heard…” contrasting it with “But I tell you”. There is no middle ground. PURGATORY is ABSOLUTELY NOT IN THESE VERSES. Let’s proceed, but remember, the topic is about UNGODLY CONFLICTS WITH MEN resulting to PUNISHMENT.

"Therefore,…(v.23)

Cut. Now, I want you to notice that word. “Therefore” conotes that the previous statement is the REASON or the CAUSE of the following statements. Here we see the pattern: CONFLICT —> PUNISHMENT → SOLUTION. And, AGAIN, remember, the punishment we’ve just seen is EITHER/BOTH TEMPORAL or ETERNAL. No middle ground, such as purgatory. LEt’s proceed.

…if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]

Here, we can see two kinds of conflicts, of their result, and of their right solution:
**1. TWO CONFLICTS
a) Conflict with a brother (v.23)
b) Conflict with an adversary (v.25)

1. TWO SOLUTION (which, actually, resembles only one principle)
   a) Be reconciled with your brother (v.24)
   b) Settle matters with your adversary (v.25)

[Note: (1) Both speaks of Reconciliation and Peace. If the “adversary” in verse 25 pertains to the Devil/Satan, then, Jesus is contradicting the scriptures and His apostles. We all know that the Bible teaches that the Devil is an enemy with whom we can never make peace with or be reconciled. To settle matters with him is to start a conflict with God. (2) Both speaks of human conflicts. When Jesus said “leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”, He means it literally (else you should make the whole Sermon on the Mount Illiteral). It therefore necessitates that “settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court” and “Do it while you are still with him on the way” be literal, and of course, the officer, the judge and the prison too.(which probably refers to the Sanhedrin mentioned earlier) **

*If verses 25 to 26 refers to purgatory, then, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT RELATED TO verses 21 to 22. But that is made impossible by the word “THEREFORE”(v.23). It is also ILLOGICAL to say that verse 25 starts another topic since, contextually, Jesus’ pattern in presenting another topic: “You have heard that it was said…”:27,31,33,38,43) is obvious. ***

*

 

[fellside]

Wow, I completely forgot about this board. I recently received an email about this thread, so I’m responding now. If any of you are still around. My post was too long, so I put it in two parts

Part 1

*]You don’t believe His Grace is sufficient for you to overcome sin in this life. Plain and simple. You chalk it up to the fact that because you have a body not only will you be attracted to sin, but you will sin.

Are you suggesting perfectionism? Do you believe that you will at some point in your earthly life be perfect and sin no more? I didn’t think that kind of thought came about until the Anabaptists. And both the reformers AND the Catholics were kean on killing them.

I do believe that God’s grace is sufficient for me in that it is the only way I can be saved, and faith is the only means by which God chooses to save men. However, almost every time this is spelled out in scripture, there is some mention of works. I affirm works with great joy. After all, Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill (confirm) it.

*]You dont take 1 Cor 10-13 in complete trust that “God will provide a way out”.

He absolutely provides a way out. I do not have to sin. The Christian life should be constant change. Every day I should look more like Christ and repent of sin. Does this mean that at a certain point in my life I will sin no more at all? What about sins of omission? Do you believe that I can possibly stop commiting sins of omission? In other words, what about the things I don’t do? Will I always take every opportunity to teach and command disciples to follow Christ (Matt. 28)? Will I love God as much as I possibly can?

I didn’t think this kind of perfectionism was a Catholic doctrine.

Actually you said the same thing, only you’ll color it differently you’ll say that a “saving faith will produce works” but you won’t agree to the logical negative that without works you have no saving faith. James said it best: “If a man says he has faith but has no works will that faith save him?” I’d give that some serious thought - do we know we have faith apart from works. Hint: Do you know a tree apart from it’s fruit?

No I will agree with that. That’s a strawman. With all due respect, I think you should read the reformers you loathe so much. Calvin affirmed works, Owens did as well. As did Edwards. All the way up until more current protestant theologians like Bahnsen, Clark, and Van Til.

If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Notice how in Ephesians 2, right after Paul tells us we are saved by grace through faith, he mentions that we are created by God for good works. We are saved by faith and unto good works. But we are not saved by good works.

Believers are called to uphold the law and live by it as their guiding and sanctifying light (Matt 5:17-20). We are not called to lawlessness (Rom 6) God’s elect will have good works/fruit. But these works do not merit our salvation. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the constant warnings against legalism in scriptures. To hold to such a doctrine, both Romans and Galatians would have to be ripped form our Bibles.

 

[fellside]

If Christ paid for the sins of the whole world and God accepted that payment, then why do unrepentant sinners still get punished by God? Is God being paid twice for some sins?

There are other purposes to the law than it’s convicting purpose. The law was there to show us our sins and to show us how far we were from holiness. It was there to condemn us as unclean. There had to be a payment for our sins that we could not pay, and Christ did that for us. However, there is also a sanctifying purpose to the law.

This is why David tells us in Psalms 119 that he loved and praised God’s statues/his law. The law is our sanctifying guide. We are not called to lawlessness and sin, but to righteousness.

Now, when we are given persecutions and sufferings, it is clear based on scripture that it is for a sanctifying purpose. (1 Peter 4:12-19) The purpose of the law that is still to be upheld by believers.

Where we go separate ways is what sanctification means after death. You believe that purgatory is necessary since we are still unclean. I say that sanctification is complete when we leave our earthly bodies. After all, we have Christ’s mind but live in earthly vessels. (Rom 7-8) When we die, we no longer have the sinful nature that remains in our flesh. Sanctification is necessary for closeness to Christ. Absolutely. But we were saved by Christ’s blood on the cross. Once we finally are freed from our earthly vessels, we are united with Christ.

The other, very significant point I made was that Purgatory is the process (not place) by which Christ’s work on the Cross is applied to all of us when we die to complete our Sanctification. That’s all it is - its a word for that process and it comes from the same root as the english word to “purge” or cleanse. As CSLewis said, it is a harmless doctrine.

Do you believe that we as believers have the mind of Christ? Do you believe that, after conversion, believers are tainted by sin in more than just their bodies? What biblical evidence do you have?

Not only is there no sufficient evidence from scritpure for purgatory, there is no need for it. You believe it is necessary because you do not fully grasp what the effects of sin are for the believer after conversion and what the purpose of sanctification is.