Help finding a book

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Hi, I seem to ask these questions a lot, so I am sorry for asking again. Can anyone recommend a good book or set of books which explain the reasons for the punishments issued by God in the Old Testament? I have found some good answers here, but I have been looking for a while for a book(s) on this matter. Any help would be much appreciated.
 
I recommend using Bible commentaries and looking up those passages that you are interested in. Just list the Bible verses that you are interested in and I would be happy to look them up for you and find explanations.
 
COPLAND_3 said:
I recommend using Bible commentaries and looking up those passages that you are interested in. Just list the Bible verses that you are interested in and I would be happy to look them up for you and find explanations.
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As of right now I am curious about Exodus 31:12-18. I understand that God the Father was stricter in the Old Testament and I understand why certain sins were punished by death but this punishment for disobeying the Sabbath is odd to me. I know I have read a good explanation for it from either Scott Hahn or Jeff Cavins, but I cannot find it.
 
Also for sins like homosexuality, disobeying the sabbath, fornication atonement was possible with the sin offerings correct?

I have been trying to explain this to atheists and I want to be sure I am correct.
 
Maryann_C said:
In A Father Who Keeps his promises perhaps?
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I was reading some of the samples of this book and this is it THANK YOU!!! Again thank you!!! 👍

In the mean time can some one help me to understand Exodus 31:12-18 and verses similar too it, for example Leviticus 20: 13. Atonement for these sins was possible by practicing the sacrificial offerings laid out in Leviticus right? Again any help would be much appreciated.
 
Cliff_Jumper said:
I was reading some of the samples of this book and this is it THANK YOU!!! Again thank you!!! 👍

In the mean time can some one help me to understand Exodus 31:12-18 and verses similar too it, for example Leviticus 20: 13. Atonement for these sins was possible by practicing the sacrificial offerings laid out in Leviticus right? Again any help would be much appreciated.
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You are welcome I just recently did the study on this book which is put out by the St Paul’s Center for Biblical Theology to be found here salvationhistory.com . Note they are on EWTN Mondays - Today - at 9 pm EST on EWTN talking about this very study from teh book , it is called Genesis to Jesus. Encore is on Tursdays at 2pm

Also you can email them with your question ( scroll to the bottom of the page and click the red contact button) if you have no joy here. I sent them some questions on stuff that I disagreed with Dr Scott Hahn ( I know how dare I and who am I! ) and they were very patient and very good…and prompt.🙂
 
Cliff_Jumper said:
I was reading some of the samples of this book and this is it THANK YOU!!! Again thank you!!! 👍

In the mean time can some one help me to understand Exodus 31:12-18 and verses similar too it, for example Leviticus 20: 13. Atonement for these sins was possible by practicing the sacrificial offerings laid out in Leviticus right? Again any help would be much appreciated.
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Ok so I was looking at your to verses . the Exodus one I definitely remember from the study…wish I could find my notes… has to do with the fact that it is a covenental relationship. Loosely the OT Sabbath is almost like a wedding ring, which is why , when Jesus was challenged by the Pharasees as to why his disciples collected and ate grain on a Sabbath ( in other words did work) Jesus essentially said that they were “with the bridegroom” so they should rejoice. I am not explaining as well as Hahn but that is the gist of things. Essentially the putting to death was like a divorce - OK really loose parallel here.

MY Leviticus 20 v 13 in my Catholic RSV talks about ‘man lying with man’ for which they should be put to death right after the person who curses his father or mother or commits adultery.
So is the question ; were there sacrificial offerings in the OT that could atone for a sin that required the punishment of death? Is that right? Do you mean Yom Kippur as in Leviticus 16? Perhaps you can point to the verses of Leviticus that you mean for the sacrificial offerings that you are talking of ,because there are many different ones and they have different meanings…they could be a Todah= thank offering or a sin offering or a peace offering and so on.
 
Cliff_Jumper said:
As of right now I am curious about Exodus 31:12-18. I understand that God the Father was stricter in the Old Testament and I understand why certain sins were punished by death but this punishment for disobeying the Sabbath is odd to me. I know I have read a good explanation for it from either Scott Hahn or Jeff Cavins, but I cannot find it.
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Excellent question, and St. Thomas Aquinas I think gives a good answer
A severe punishment is inflicted not only on account of the gravity of a fault, but also for other reasons. First, on account of the greatness of the sin, because a greater sin, other things being equal, deserves a greater punishment. Secondly, on account of a habitual sin, since men are not easily cured of habitual sin except by severe punishments. Thirdly, on account of a great desire for or a great pleasure in the sin: for men are not easily deterred from such sins unless they be severely punished. Fourthly, on account of the facility of committing a sin and of concealing it: for such like sins, when discovered, should be more severely punished in order to deter others from committing them.
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Again, with regard to the greatness of a sin, four degrees may be observed, even in respect of one single deed. The first is when a sin is committed unwillingly; because then, if the sin be altogether involuntary, man is altogether excused from punishment; for it is written (Dt. 22:25, seqq.) that a damsel who suffers violence in a field is not guilty of death, because “she cried, and there was no man to help her.” But if a man sinned in any way voluntarily, and yet through weakness, as for instance when a man sins from passion, the sin is diminished: and the punishment, according to true judgment, should be diminished also; unless perchance the common weal requires that the sin be severely punished in order to deter others from committing such sins, as stated above. The second degree is when a man sins through ignorance: and then he was held to be guilty to a certain extent, on account of his negligence in acquiring knowledge: yet he was not punished by the judges but expiated his sin by sacrifices. Hence it is written (Lev. 4:2): “The soul that sinneth through ignorance,” etc. This is, however, to be taken as applying to ignorance of fact; and not to ignorance of the Divine precept, which all were bound to know. The third degree was when a man sinned from pride, i.e. through deliberate choice or malice: and then he was punished according to the greatness of the sin *Cf. Dt. 25:2]. The fourth degree was when a man sinned from stubbornness or obstinacy: and then he was to be utterly cut off as a rebel and a destroyer of the commandment of the Law *Cf. Num. 15:30,31].
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Accordingly we must say that, in appointing the punishment for theft, the Law considered what would be likely to happen most frequently (Ex. 22:1-9): wherefore, as regards theft of other things which can easily be safeguarded from a thief, the thief restored only twice their value. But sheep cannot be easily safeguarded from a thief, because they graze in the fields: wherefore it happened more frequently that sheep were stolen in the fields. Consequently the Law inflicted a heavier penalty, by ordering four sheep to be restored for the theft of one. As to cattle, they were yet more difficult to safeguard, because they are kept in the fields, and do not graze in flocks as sheep do; wherefore a yet more heavy penalty was inflicted in their regard, so that five oxen were to be restored for one ox. And this I say, unless perchance the animal itself were discovered in the thief’s possession: because in that case he had to restore only twice the number, as in the case of other thefts: for there was reason to presume that he intended to restore the animal, since he kept it alive. Again, we might say, according to a gloss, that “a cow is useful in five ways: it may be used for sacrifice, for ploughing, for food, for milk, and its hide is employed for various purposes”: and therefore for one cow five had to be restored. But the sheep was useful in four ways: “for sacrifice, for meat, for milk, and for its wool.” The unruly son was slain, not because he ate and drank: but on account of his stubbornness and rebellion, which was always punished by death, as stated above. As to the man who gathered sticks on the sabbath, he was stoned as a breaker of the Law, which commanded the sabbath to be observed, to testify the belief in the newness of the world, as stated above (Q[100], A[5]): wherefore he was slain as an unbeliever.
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Maryann_C said:
Ok so I was looking at your to verses . the Exodus one I definitely remember from the study…wish I could find my notes… has to do with the fact that it is a covenental relationship. Loosely the OT Sabbath is almost like a wedding ring, which is why , when Jesus was challenged by the Pharasees as to why his disciples collected and ate grain on a Sabbath ( in other words did work) Jesus essentially said that they were “with the bridegroom” so they should rejoice. I am not explaining as well as Hahn but that is the gist of things. Essentially the putting to death was like a divorce - OK really loose parallel here.

MY Leviticus 20 v 13 in my Catholic RSV talks about ‘man lying with man’ for which they should be put to death right after the person who curses his father or mother or commits adultery.
So is the question ; were there sacrificial offerings in the OT that could atone for a sin that required the punishment of death? Is that right? Do you mean Yom Kippur as in Leviticus 16? Perhaps you can point to the verses of Leviticus that you mean for the sacrificial offerings that you are talking of ,because there are many different ones and they have different meanings…they could be a Todah= thank offering or a sin offering or a peace offering and so on.
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I am referring to the sin offerings laid out in Leviticus chapters 4-5. After reading Aquinas it would appear atonement for sins was indeed possible as long as the sinner was not in full mortal sin.
 
COPLAND_3 said:
Excellent question, and St. Thomas Aquinas I think gives a good answer
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I am fairly certain I understand this section from Aquinas. Is he saying atonement is possible through the practice of the prescribed sin offerings described in Leviticus chapters 4-5 when the sin is committed inadvertently, out of ignorance, etc. I was reading about the two types of death in the NewAdvent.org Bible and it differentiated between a civil death being cut off from the community and a literal death. This seems to apply i Aquinas’ text as well.
Am I correct.

P.S. Should have checked Aquinas he is one of my all time fav saints. :cool:
 
I am going to order a few books on the Old Testament that you have suggested, in order to better explain the faith to atheists. In the mean time I could really use some help explaining why God the Father in the Old Testament is not a blood thirsty maniac. For example atheists point to verses like Exodus 31:14 and Leviticus 20: 12 and say something like, “Why would a loving god do this?” Or they cite examples of supposed genocide commanded by God.
Sorry to repeat myself, but I really want to make sure I am giving the right answers. Plus I am very excited to learn.

Thank you again.
 
Cliff_Jumper said:
I am fairly certain I understand this section from Aquinas. Is he saying atonement is possible through the practice of the prescribed sin offerings described in Leviticus chapters 4-5 when the sin is committed inadvertently, out of ignorance, etc. I was reading about the two types of death in the NewAdvent.org Bible and it differentiated between a civil death being cut off from the community and a literal death. This seems to apply i Aquinas’ text as well.
Am I correct.

P.S. Should have checked Aquinas he is one of my all time fav saints. :cool:
Click to expand...
Actually the point that I like that he makes is that God prescribed serious punishment for some sins not because He wants to punish them hard for it, but to deter them from the habit. I think that is similar to not going to Mass on the Lord’s Day being a mortal sin, meaning that we can go to hell for it, which is worse than dying physically. In other words God is not wanting to punish us hard but He wants to motivate us to break bad habits or keep us from getting into the habit of not taking Him serious.
 
Cliff_Jumper said:
I am referring to the sin offerings laid out in Leviticus chapters 4-5. After reading Aquinas it would appear atonement for sins was indeed possible as long as the sinner was not in full mortal sin.
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👍

Yup that is basically as I see it. Mortal sin being a complete rejection of God after having full information of who he is and having been part of the ‘family’ so to speak.

Interestingly this is in fact , if one looks closely, the same thing we have today and then when one understands this one can totally understand what Jesus came to save us from. something I think people have a hard time understanding in our permissive society.

In the OT the just judgements of God and resulting punishments for sin were laid out and given to the world through his chosen people, Israel , in the New we learn , all is not lost because that for which we should rightly be put to death for we now have been saved from . In order to ‘tap into’ that saving Grace we still have to do what Jesus said as passed down through the Church that He established for that very purpose- the instruction of what was necessary for , His authority and meeting out of the sacraments of our salvation.
The punishments are still in the law books , we still ought to be put to death ( hell) for adultery for example but thanks be to God he appointed us a merciful Judge and sacrificial lamb that was the only one that was acceptable and capable of atoning for those sins.
That is why I love the Kirk Cameron street Evangelization methods, you can find him on You Tube yes he is not Catholic and he ‘preaches’ the simple gospel ( 'all you have to do is the sinners prayer" type thing and I** do not** agree with all that he says- and he and Ray are probably in the anti Catholic camp) but HEY he is out there talking to the gang members and convicting people of truth in their hearts. He partners with Ray Comfort and if you have never watched the Ray Comfort 180 movie that takes people on the street from Hitler to doing a 180 on their abortion ideas. It is a 30 min on line movie and is brilliantly done.
 
Maryann_C said:
👍

Yup that is basically as I see it. Mortal sin being a complete rejection of God after having full information of who he is and having been part of the ‘family’ so to speak.

Interestingly this is in fact , if one looks closely, the same thing we have today and then when one understands this one can totally understand what Jesus came to save us from. something I think people have a hard time understanding in our permissive society.

In the OT the just judgements of God and resulting punishments for sin were laid out and given to the world through his chosen people, Israel , in the New we learn , all is not lost because that for which we should rightly be put to death for we now have been saved from . In order to ‘tap into’ that saving Grace we still have to do what Jesus said as passed down through the Church that He established for that very purpose- the instruction of what was necessary for , His authority and meeting out of the sacraments of our salvation.
The punishments are still in the law books , we still ought to be put to death ( hell) for adultery for example but thanks be to God he appointed us a merciful Judge and sacrificial lamb that was the only one that was acceptable and capable of atoning for those sins.
That is why I love the Kirk Cameron street Evangelization methods, you can find him on You Tube yes he is not Catholic and he ‘preaches’ the simple gospel ( 'all you have to do is the sinners prayer" type thing and I** do not** agree with all that he says- and he and Ray are probably in the anti Catholic camp) but HEY he is out there talking to the gang members and convicting people of truth in their hearts. He partners with Ray Comfort and if you have never watched the Ray Comfort 180 movie that takes people on the street from Hitler to doing a 180 on their abortion ideas. It is a 30 min on line movie and is brilliantly done.
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thank you.
 
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