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Spirithound
Guest
So fun wins out over modesty?
- Status
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Debora123
Guest
???
I’m pretty sure that’s not what she means. If you read her other posts and put it all into context, you can see that she clearly doesn’t think the clothes you were all talking about are immodest.
I’d have to agree with her on that. It’s one thing to wear Muslim clothes occasionally because you think they’re pretty, it’s another thing entirely to think that anything that reveals the body more than Muslim clothes do is immodest.
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Spirithound
Guest
I do hope that I’m simply having difficulty establishing context here. But Kathleen has really been using extremes in her posts. Like in her first post in this thread:
she goes right from Muslim-style clothing to nude paintings. Given this dichotomy, I suppose I’m having a difficult time understanding just how short of a skirt she is approving of.Please don’t tell young attractive girls to shop at Muslim stores. I have seen these oufits and I would never wear them. They are sooo unattractive. Please stop being so scrupulous about your attire. You know what looks good on you, so stop worrying. The Vatican if full of art work that to the normal eye is obscene, yet it is still there. Give yourself a breather. It breaks my heart to see all of these young girls so worried about so-called modesty.
The people that tell you your skirt is too short or your heels are too high, just can’t wear them because they do not have the figure for it. I think a slim person is never immodest in a high style outfit. It is the overweight person who has a problem with a young beautiful girl who gives them a sermon on the mount for their attire. Just MHO. If you look good in it and it is not vulgar - wear it! God bless you, from a person who truly knows fashion!!!
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my5hobbits
Guest
Caveat (because it appears we are discussing clothing for younger women): yes Girls, I am a 46 year old mom and therefore would not interfere in your conversation, except that my 17 and 16 year old girls do not use this forum and are currently watching this thread with me.
Let us contrast that with their defintion of modesty (which in MHO has nothing to do with a person’s size!) 1) Having a moderate estimate of oneself and 2)Observing the proprieties of dress and behavior
The CATHOLIC DICTIONARY further says:
Four Virtues are commonly included under modesty: humility, studiousness, and two kinds of external modesty, namely in dress and general behavior.
It also quotes St. Augustine,“In all your movements let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another,”
Which leads me to the real reason for my post.
In all these discussions no one is addressing the real REASON to dress Modestly; so as not to be a near occassion of sin to our brothers in Christ.
Regina Doman, author of the Fairy Tale Novels, said it plainly:
"Dressing immodestly is insensitive to men. In today’s gender wars, Catholics can work for change by cultivating good relationships between men and women, of friendships built on trust and mutual respect. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting many fine Catholic young men who bend over backwards to understand and accommodate a woman’s sensitivities and special genius. However, in the area of modesty, most young Catholic women haven’t responded in kind. I myself am puzzled as to whether this is sheer ignorance or merely an uncaring attitude. "
In the same article she sheds some light on the whole idea of what dressing modestly is and is not, from a Catholic Perspective.
“In talks on modesty, I’ve frequently heard the comment that a Catholic woman shouldn’t wear anything that the Virgin Mary herself wouldn’t wear. While I agree with this, I’ll observe that I’ve never seen a memorable image of the Virgin Mary wearing a dowdy, shapeless dress. On the contrary, her dresses are usually softly draped, flattering to her feminine figure. She is rarely depicted in drab colors-strong, clear colors abound in her dresses, sometimes with embellishment. In a word, the Blessed Mother is portrayed as beautifully dressed. Here I feel is the key to the modesty problem.
Some unfortunate Jansenist or Puritanical impulse in the modern Catholic imagination has equated modesty with hiding the womanly figure. Apparently too many Catholic women think being modest means wearing, unattractive clothing. Could this be why even women undergoing profound spiritual conversions quietly bypass the idea of adopting modest dress”
Finally, if you want the entire article, of which this is only a small taste, go to “articles” at reginadoman.com
I do remember that this whole thread started because someone was asking where to find modest clothing. I pray that the young Catholic girls will seek out like minded Catholic/Christian girls for discussion. I previously listed my girls website, but another good resource is rosamysticamodesty.org
vulgur is not in the Catholic Dictionary, but in the Webster’s it says, 1-“Of or referring to the common people” down at definition three it does say “lacking good taste or refined feelings” AND the synonyms are listed as: GROSS, OBSCENE, RIBALD, DIRTY, INDECENT and PROFANE.
Let us contrast that with their defintion of modesty (which in MHO has nothing to do with a person’s size!) 1) Having a moderate estimate of oneself and 2)Observing the proprieties of dress and behavior
The CATHOLIC DICTIONARY further says:
Four Virtues are commonly included under modesty: humility, studiousness, and two kinds of external modesty, namely in dress and general behavior.
It also quotes St. Augustine,“In all your movements let nothing be evident that would offend the eyes of another,”
Which leads me to the real reason for my post.
In all these discussions no one is addressing the real REASON to dress Modestly; so as not to be a near occassion of sin to our brothers in Christ.
Regina Doman, author of the Fairy Tale Novels, said it plainly:
"Dressing immodestly is insensitive to men. In today’s gender wars, Catholics can work for change by cultivating good relationships between men and women, of friendships built on trust and mutual respect. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting many fine Catholic young men who bend over backwards to understand and accommodate a woman’s sensitivities and special genius. However, in the area of modesty, most young Catholic women haven’t responded in kind. I myself am puzzled as to whether this is sheer ignorance or merely an uncaring attitude. "
In the same article she sheds some light on the whole idea of what dressing modestly is and is not, from a Catholic Perspective.
“In talks on modesty, I’ve frequently heard the comment that a Catholic woman shouldn’t wear anything that the Virgin Mary herself wouldn’t wear. While I agree with this, I’ll observe that I’ve never seen a memorable image of the Virgin Mary wearing a dowdy, shapeless dress. On the contrary, her dresses are usually softly draped, flattering to her feminine figure. She is rarely depicted in drab colors-strong, clear colors abound in her dresses, sometimes with embellishment. In a word, the Blessed Mother is portrayed as beautifully dressed. Here I feel is the key to the modesty problem.
Some unfortunate Jansenist or Puritanical impulse in the modern Catholic imagination has equated modesty with hiding the womanly figure. Apparently too many Catholic women think being modest means wearing, unattractive clothing. Could this be why even women undergoing profound spiritual conversions quietly bypass the idea of adopting modest dress”
Finally, if you want the entire article, of which this is only a small taste, go to “articles” at reginadoman.com
I do remember that this whole thread started because someone was asking where to find modest clothing. I pray that the young Catholic girls will seek out like minded Catholic/Christian girls for discussion. I previously listed my girls website, but another good resource is rosamysticamodesty.org
C
Chen_Zhen
Guest
If you really want good modest clothes keep away from Western fashion.I am a fairly regular Catholic teenage girl. I enjoy going out and looking for clothes, at least, when I can find something modest enough. Recently, I have been trying to find a website or a store where I can get modest clothes. I have had some luck, but most of the things I have found seem more like things that my mother would wear.Does anyone know of a store/website where I can find clothing that is modest,but fits with my age a bit more? Any help is most appreciated!
I am Catholic man, Caucasian and born and raised in the U.S.
Why do I say this? Because I realize that the answer to this is not in the U.S.
Take a look at middle eastern fashion. Not the burquas, but the other styles. Many are Muslim, it is true, but you can find the most beautiful clothes this way. As a young, male, I find this to be modest and yet stunning. Try Pakastani fashion designers in a google search and you will find some amazing clothes.
I wish American women had the sense to dress like this! Women who dress in this manner have a far greater beauty than those who dress in revealing clothes.
I believe the current immodest styles in the world are the influence of the devil to destroy woman and man.
I don’t know if the Church Fathers say much about this theory and this is speculation on my part but…
Do you think it a surprise that Adam fell through the the trust he had confided in his dear woman? God gave the command not to eat of the fruit of the tree to Adam and Adam gave this command to the woman. Eve had the knowledge second hand so perhaps Satan’s reason in appearing to the woman was knowing that he could manipulate the words given to the woman by Adam. Satan knew the way to conquer a man was through a woman.
Woman was made to love man and man is to love woman. Modern woman has lost the ability to wield her mystical power of purity and beauty. A woman should dress in a way that commands the reverence and respect of a man to the point where a man would fall at her feet and treat her as Christ treats His Church…the way a woman was created to be loved! This is another reason why women are to be submissive, the woman whom a man truly loves need not fear, for she wields a power over the heart of this man. This man would never ask her to do anything that would hurt her, nor would he hurt her. He loves her as if she truly is his own heart. Bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh…a union of persons. This is reflected in the way women act, and dress.
Western women and the fashion industry need to take a hint from this. If the fashion industry was not run by degenerate designers who went to college we would not have this problem. It doesn’t help that men are so dominate in the women’s fashion industry.
Hopefully women in the fashion industry, or those interested in it, will see these styles and begin to develop something that is as beautiful, modest, and able to be adapted to the western world.
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Debora123
Guest
I’ve read her posts and honestly, I agree with her. I don’t see why you think she was somehow suggesting someone being almost naked just because she mentioned paintings in the Vatican churches.
From what I understand, she mentioned those paintings to prove a point. The point is our bodies are beautiful and don’t need to be covered up from head to foot every time we step out our front doors.
She never said anything about wearing REALLY short skirts, she just said mini skirts. That just means they’re above the knees, not necessarily showing the behind or anything. Mini skirts that are the right length look very classy and fashionable on the right body type. I wear them all the time here in sunny Florida. I’ve got pictures with my husband on my profile with me wearing mini skirts and tank tops and I definitely don’t think I look inappropriate or anything, I think I look nice.
Anyway, that’s what I got from what Kathleen was trying to say. I guess she can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty certain bc I feel the same way.
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phoooiee
Guest
Well, I was the one who suggested the Muslim clothing and I did so because I think they are pretty, not because I think it’s required to dress by hiding the body in that way. I just happen to prefer a long skirt and so many of the ones at the site I suggested are simply works of art!
Thanks, by the way, to the person who suggested Elven Designs. Just ordered 2 skirts!
Thanks, by the way, to the person who suggested Elven Designs. Just ordered 2 skirts!
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
It ain’t the fault exclusively of wester women, so don’t go there. ALL people are of a fallen nature and inclined to sin.
You left out the part about erogenous zones being slightly different for each society. What works in one does not in another.
What does ‘degenerate fashion designers who went to college’ have to do with ANYTHING???
That said, I’m appalled at what passes for ‘fashion’ these days. And wonder why moms are dressing their 8-year-olds like hookers.
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Debora123
Guest
And that is perfectly fine!
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rabbysmom
Guest
Here are some cute websites that seem fairly reasonable- esp. when things are on sale. Haven’t bought from anyone of these so I can’t vouch for the quality. Next time I need to shop I will browse these and try something out!
shadeclothing.com
paulinacarmel.com
funkyfrum.com
Hope this helps!
Stephanie
shadeclothing.com
paulinacarmel.com
funkyfrum.com
Hope this helps!
Stephanie
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Love_Divine
Guest
I have issues??? I’m an educated 26 year old starting a career in the public service sector of the government. I don’t have issues. I don’t dress frumpy and drab. I dress beautifully in a manner that compliments my femininity. I love to go shoe shopping as much as the next woman, but that doesn’t mean I have to go out and be immodest about it. I don’t know where you get the idea that I have “issues” and “hang-ups”. Maybe other girls aren’t as observant about the people around them who ogle their bodies, sneak a quick peak down their shirts, etc. Men do this, even your best guy friend whom you think nothing about. Why on earth would any woman want to put a man in such a position. Girls need to be taught they can dress beautifully and modestly.
I don’t know if you realize this, but the real problem with short skirts is when you move. I have seen up girls’/women’s skirts who are walking towards me while I’m driving in my car. I have seen up short skirts while walking up the stairs behind women. Even when women sit, it’s still possible to see up their skirts if the skirt doesn’t fall below the knee when they sit.I had to get rid of a skirt which I thought was modest, but when I sat, it rode up too high. Even trying to drive in my car while wearing it, I could not do so in a modest manner if I had a passenger with me.
The same is true with tank tops and other lower cut tops. As soon as people bend over, you can see down them. Or if you’re sitting next to a man who is standing, he can see down your shirt easily.
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Chen_Zhen
Guest
This is more of a rant than a logical argument on my part, but here goes:
Yes, all of us have a fallen nature. I am not speaking of sin, but the fashion industry in the West. The poor designs are mostly prevalent in Western Civilization, not exclusively, but generally.
I thought it was interesting to see the wedding dress worn by Princess Catharine Middleton at her wedding. She is a beautiful woman and she charmed the world with her style. I only hope that God will bless and convert her! She is in a position to influence the youth in a positive way, contrary to all these “pop stars”.
For so many years now the standard wedding dress has been basically the same strapless design. The princess had a dress that actually had more elegance and style rather than something that looked like a beach towel wrapped around a woman with a shorter or longer train attached.
The Oriental cultures in general seem to have far more originality and style. The west had many good styles some time ago, but these seem to have been lost. I don’t care for all the crazy Victorian dresses necessarily, but I mean that there was a unique style to the West and it is neat to see it take shape.
Now, men and women wear clothes that is designed to be more unisex and there is no diversity in styles.
So many people go to college to learn fashion and their creations are no indication of true creativity. Take the example of the wedding dress, it is so often the same tired design over and over again. Plain and revealing. Why do all these people say “think outside the box” when they don’t?
As for modesty, the east has done a much better job at this. The Chinese, the Persians, Hindi are pagan but they have a sense of modesty and style…unique to their culture.
Now in the west so many walk around in jeans and t-shirt with some ridiculous slogan or advertisement. And now this is infecting the east.
Setting modesty aside the focus of other cultures seems to be on things unique to their culture where in the west it is all about the individual being just that, an individual trying to make a statement.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
You mean like THIS?
I’m very tired of people blaming ‘Western culture’ for everything from hangnails to the fall of man.
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Debora123
Guest
Not necessarily. I’ve certainly never had a friend or husband or family member tell me that they’ve caught a glimpse of my underwear, or that I looked inappropriate.
You just gotta know how to wear it and you gotta be careful. I’ve most certainly never had a problem with it.
It’s often too hot down here in Florida to wear long skirts or pants all the time anyway, even if I wanted to. Which I don’t.
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Chen_Zhen
Guest
No, and to my knowledge, that movement started in San Francisco, CA according to the first reports a couple weeks/months ago.
I am not blaming “western culture”, but saying that in western culture there is a movement/trend of bad fashion. Fashion now seems to be based on peoples freedom of expression. I’m talking about fashion within the western culture, not the entire Western Culture.
Also, considering the uniqueness of fashion it use to be that in Europe, people dressed in a way that was part of the culture of where they were from. One could distinguish a German from a Frenchman or Italian before they opened their mouths by the way they dressed. Now this uniqueness is being lost in the West because the West most of all is becoming a gigantic melting pot. That is not necessarily a good thing. For morals and religion, it is good if all become part of the True Faith, but there are things that are okay to retain and enjoy. It was the same way in the east. for example in China is was possible to distinguish a person by province and dynasty because of their dress and appearance. This is part of their identity. The east simply seems to hang on to these concepts a little better. Now, in the modern world this is all changing and the more people try to be individual, the more they become the same.
The east has many things wrong! However, the way the world’s fashion seemed to develop in past times in the east an west was based on locality, culture, practicality. Now, it is as if it is dictated by style magazines and the college educated fashion designers who are in the industry as a career. Some are good, some are bad, but what I perceive is that in the west the fashion is more industry driven while in the east it is becoming that way but they still maintain many of their cultural fashions.
I understand you are tired of people blaming the west for things, it is the same as other nations who are blaming the U.S. for all the worlds problems.
It is a matter of right and wrong within those cultures. There is a beauty to both sides, but since I am part of Western Culture, it is as if it is my own vehicle. I am better able to know what is wrong with it because I am driving/riding in it and I would like to be part of the solution, not the problem.
What I do not want is a mix of cultures. Part of the beauty of the world is the fact that there are different cultures. Sure, ideally they would all be Catholic, but each culture seems to express different aspects of the beauty of humanity. I like the fact that I could go to China, Ethiopia, of Russia and in each place be immersed in an entirely new culture. It is possible for all of these peoples to be good Catholics and still maintain the good things of their cultures.
Too many people want to be something else. Because of this we are loosing our culture in the west to what may be many, many years from now (eventually) some “one world culture”. This ridiculous! I am “Caucasian” and love being American and from the West but I also love the culture of other places. That is just it, I do not want to be Chinese or Russian, but I love their cultures and am fascinated by them. I want to love those people, but not “become” the same.
I like to go to another country and represent myself as and American…and hopefully a good and virtuous one. God made me and it was in His plan for me to be an American…a westerner. I should love and honor this.
Does this rant make acceptable sense?
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Debora123
Guest
That’s the thing though. Kathleen doesn’t think certain things that YOU think are immodest are actually immodest.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Perhaps we can get back to the OP’s question.
Even regular stores like Wally World, Macy’s or Tarjayy have options for modest but cute and contemporary clothes, and they don’t have to cost a fortune. One person mentioned layering; that’s always an option.
If you come across a look you like whether it’s in a magazine or a store, take the image along when you shop. I used to do that with good results.
Even regular stores like Wally World, Macy’s or Tarjayy have options for modest but cute and contemporary clothes, and they don’t have to cost a fortune. One person mentioned layering; that’s always an option.
If you come across a look you like whether it’s in a magazine or a store, take the image along when you shop. I used to do that with good results.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
Thrift Store!
Why pay full price for clothes? Plus you get totally unique things you can’t find anywhere else, and the selection is constantly changing. Can find some real treasures. Also, it’s more responsible to buy used rather than always new…and many thrift stores are set up as charities.
My wife and I go thrift store shopping as like a date. It’s really fun.
Why pay full price for clothes? Plus you get totally unique things you can’t find anywhere else, and the selection is constantly changing. Can find some real treasures. Also, it’s more responsible to buy used rather than always new…and many thrift stores are set up as charities.
My wife and I go thrift store shopping as like a date. It’s really fun.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Chen Zhen:No, and to my knowledge, that movement started in San Francisco, CA according to the first reports a couple weeks/months ago.
I am not blaming “western culture”, but saying that in western culture there is a movement/trend of bad fashion. Fashion now seems to be based on peoples freedom of expression. I’m talking about fashion within the western culture, not the entire Western Culture.
Also, considering the uniqueness of fashion it use to be that in Europe, people dressed in a way that was part of the culture of where they were from. One could distinguish a German from a Frenchman or Italian before they opened their mouths by the way they dressed. Now this uniqueness is being lost in the West because the West most of all is becoming a gigantic melting pot. That is not necessarily a good thing. For morals and religion, it is good if all become part of the True Faith, but there are things that are okay to retain and enjoy. It was the same way in the east. for example in China is was possible to distinguish a person by province and dynasty because of their dress and appearance. This is part of their identity. The east simply seems to hang on to these concepts a little better. Now, in the modern world this is all changing and the more people try to be individual, the more they become the same.
The east has many things wrong! However, the way the world’s fashion seemed to develop in past times in the east an west was based on locality, culture, practicality. Now, it is as if it is dictated by style magazines and the college educated fashion designers who are in the industry as a career. Some are good, some are bad, but what I perceive is that in the west the fashion is more industry driven while in the east it is becoming that way but they still maintain many of their cultural fashions.
I understand you are tired of people blaming the west for things, it is the same as other nations who are blaming the U.S. for all the worlds problems.
It is a matter of right and wrong within those cultures. There is a beauty to both sides, but since I am part of Western Culture, it is as if it is my own vehicle. I am better able to know what is wrong with it because I am driving/riding in it and I would like to be part of the solution, not the problem.
What I do not want is a mix of cultures. Part of the beauty of the world is the fact that there are different cultures. Sure, ideally they would all be Catholic, but each culture seems to express different aspects of the beauty of humanity. I like the fact that I could go to China, Ethiopia, of Russia and in each place be immersed in an entirely new culture. It is possible for all of these peoples to be good Catholics and still maintain the good things of their cultures.
Too many people want to be something else. Because of this we are loosing our culture in the west to what may be many, many years from now (eventually) some “one world culture”. This ridiculous! I am “Caucasian” and love being American and from the West but I also love the culture of other places. That is just it, I do not want to be Chinese or Russian, but I love their cultures and am fascinated by them. I want to love those people, but not “become” the same.
I like to go to another country and represent myself as and American…and hopefully a good and virtuous one. God made me and it was in His plan for me to be an American…a westerner. I should love and honor this.
Does this rant make acceptable sense?
You say— you don’t want a mix of cultures–yet you promote Muslim/Pakastani designer style of dress for western women. Is this not the mix of culture-which apparently you are against.
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Debora123
Guest
Haha, now we’ve got Catholics saying Catholic women need to wear Muslim clothing… sigh
Now I’ve heard it all
Now I’ve heard it all
- Status