Help Finding Modest Clothes

[Chen_Zhen]

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You say— you don’t want a mix of cultures–yet you promote Muslim/Pakastani designer style of dress for western women. Is this not the mix of culture-which apparently you are against.

Sort of a problem. I see your point. Hence why I am saying I am ranting and not so much making a logical argument.
But…
What I’d want is for people to learn from those other fashions.
Not to take the exact clothes, but to learn from them how modest clothes can be beautiful. Or maybe I can say that beautiful clothes can be modest.
It would like to see westerners look to that and get an idea of how clothes ought to be…to see how we have forgotten what it truly means to have culture and style.

I just don’t like the usual argument where one “conservative Catholic” yells at a woman for dressing immodest and then the perception is that she has to dress in a burqua.
But now all Muslim women wear burquas…it is a generalization. You see what I am getting at?
So it is not wearing Pakistani clothing or Muslim clothing so much as it is adapting that attitude to our culture again. Like I said in the post, that the clothes tells a story about the person, where they are from, and what they are about in a way.
There are other forms of dress I was thinking when I wrote this. I think it is the Pakastani’s. The women wear these “lawn dresses” I think that is what they are called. Anyway, they are stunning! The vivid colors and patterns used are works of art.
So why can’t our fashion designers take a hint from this?
It is like having our western style back, but getting the idea of how to blend it with our own culture from them.
I know a man who is a good example to me. In the West, we commonly wear a suit with a tie. But a man I new wore this with a style that reflected who he was, a man from the midwest who had class. He wore twill “suit coats” with nice pants and boots, a tie, a leather vest underneath his sport jacket. Something about it reflected his way of life, he was a professor, raised horses and was from the central/mid U.S. It was styling and classy.
The problem is that men and women both need to be more modest. This also is not just a matter of dress, but also attitude.

 

[Elven_Maid]

The people that tell you your skirt is too short or your heels are too high, just can’t wear them because they do not have the figure for it. I think a slim person is never immodest in a high style outfit. Just MHO. If you look good in it and it is not vulgar - wear it! God bless you, from a person who truly knows fashion!!!

The following is a direct quote from a friend. This is why that kind of clothing is not acceptable for anyone! Even if you don’t believe veiling feminine clothing is beautiful, even if you don’t care about preserving your feminine dignity, please care about our brothers in Christ!

Hi, my name is Paul, and I am a teenage guy. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Guys are extremely visual creatures. If we see too much skin, we think a little too much and are eventually fantasizing (MORTAL SIN) about that girl. That TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. That we are then treating like an object of pleasure. Personally I could not find anything more attractive than modest clothing. I can admire their face, for example, not their “boobs” or legs (and then higher up!). How would you like it if someone only liked you for your body? Well, if you dress with short-shorts and tank tops, that’s gonna happen. Thank you all.

“Jesus said to His disciples, 'Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones too stumble.” Luke 17:1-2

 

[Walking_Home]

The following is a direct quote from a friend. This is why that kind of clothing is not acceptable for anyone! Even if you don’t believe veiling feminine clothing is beautiful, even if you don’t care about preserving your feminine dignity, please care about our brothers in Christ!

Hi, my name is Paul, and I am a teenage guy. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Guys are extremely visual creatures. If we see too much skin, we think a little too much and are eventually fantasizing (MORTAL SIN) about that girl. That TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. That we are then treating like an object of pleasure. Personally I could not find anything more attractive than modest clothing. I can admire their face, for example, not their “boobs” or legs (and then higher up!). How would you like it if someone only liked you for your body? Well, if you dress with short-shorts and tank tops, that’s gonna happen. Thank you all.

“Jesus said to His disciples, 'Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones too stumble.” Luke 17:1-2

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Seems to be-- a young man —who does not want to be responsible for his own thoughts–and passes the buck. Have we been raising generations of lechers.

Ps. I am not advocating immodest clothes.

 

[Debora123]

Hi, my name is Paul, and I am a teenage guy. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? Guys are extremely visual creatures. If we see too much skin, we think a little too much and are eventually fantasizing (MORTAL SIN) about that girl. That TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. That we are then treating like an object of pleasure. Personally I could not find anything more attractive than modest clothing. I can admire their face, for example, not their “boobs” or legs (and then higher up!). How would you like it if someone only liked you for your body? Well, if you dress with short-shorts and tank tops, that’s gonna happen. Thank you all.

I’ve never had someone only like me for my body. I’ve never been treated like an object of pleasure. I am happily married to an amazing Catholic man and have great friends - many of who are close GUY friends who treat me with as much dignity and respect as the next person. Living in the tropics my whole life, I’d die if I didn’t wear shorts and tank tops. It’s how all the people down here get through life everyday! It’d be downright cruel to tell someone they can’t wear shorts and tank tops when it’s 98 degrees out with 70% humidity.

There may be some men out there (though I’ve never met any) who can’t handle seeing a girl in anything less than baggy pants/long skirt, and a baggy top that went up to the neck line. But you know what? There may be some men out there who can’t handle seeing as much as a girl’s ankles! In fact, there WERE men out there who couldn’t handle that - it was back when women used to cover themselves up SO much that men got aroused simply from catching a glimpse of her ankles! And yet there are indigenous tribes where women are completely topless and the men think nothing of it. We then must conclude that it’s all a matter of being either conditioned or deprived.

I think the young boy who wrote the above paragraph is highly mistaken, especially when he wrote “I can admire their face, for example, not their boobs or legs.” I see nothing wrong with thinking a lady has nice legs and a nice figure. It’s called physical attraction, and it can go beyond just the face. In fact, it’s a great thing if it does. My husband admired those things about me when we were dating, and he admires them now that we are married and he is finally able to explore them fully and completely. So many young Christian people are so confused about sexuality and about what’s wrong and right. This poor young boy is mistaken in thinking that he’s not allowed to appreciate a women’s figure and that it must be limited only to the face.

 

[Debora123]

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Seems to be-- a young man —who does not want to be responsible for his own thoughts–and passes the buck. Have we been raising generations of lechers.

Ps. I am not advocating immodest clothes.

YES!

 

[kozlosap]

If you really want good modest clothes keep away from Western fashion.
I am Catholic man, Caucasian and born and raised in the U.S.
Why do I say this? Because I realize that the answer to this is not in the U.S.
Take a look at middle eastern fashion. Not the burquas, but the other styles. Many are Muslim, it is true, but you can find the most beautiful clothes this way. As a young, male, I find this to be modest and yet stunning. Try Pakastani fashion designers in a google search and you will find some amazing clothes.
I wish American women had the sense to dress like this! Women who dress in this manner have a far greater beauty than those who dress in revealing clothes.
I believe the current immodest styles in the world are the influence of the devil to destroy woman and man.
I don’t know if the Church Fathers say much about this theory and this is speculation on my part but…
Do you think it a surprise that Adam fell through the the trust he had confided in his dear woman? God gave the command not to eat of the fruit of the tree to Adam and Adam gave this command to the woman. Eve had the knowledge second hand so perhaps Satan’s reason in appearing to the woman was knowing that he could manipulate the words given to the woman by Adam. Satan knew the way to conquer a man was through a woman.
Woman was made to love man and man is to love woman. Modern woman has lost the ability to wield her mystical power of purity and beauty. A woman should dress in a way that commands the reverence and respect of a man to the point where a man would fall at her feet and treat her as Christ treats His Church…the way a woman was created to be loved! This is another reason why women are to be submissive, the woman whom a man truly loves need not fear, for she wields a power over the heart of this man. This man would never ask her to do anything that would hurt her, nor would he hurt her. He loves her as if she truly is his own heart. Bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh…a union of persons. This is reflected in the way women act, and dress.
Western women and the fashion industry need to take a hint from this. If the fashion industry was not run by degenerate designers who went to college we would not have this problem. It doesn’t help that men are so dominate in the women’s fashion industry.
Hopefully women in the fashion industry, or those interested in it, will see these styles and begin to develop something that is as beautiful, modest, and able to be adapted to the western world.

How sad that a “young man” would have such vitriol towards Western Women and educated people. I think maybe Coco Chanel (if she were alive) and some of the other wonderful designers might disagree with you about being degenerate. If you have ever traveled in the East, you might see that the more wealth a person has, the more “western” they dress! I’ll pray that you realize that we are all human and just trying to be the best people we can be, even the lowly immodest woman.

 

[Chen_Zhen]

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Seems to be-- a young man —who does not want to be responsible for his own thoughts–and passes the buck. Have we been raising generations of lechers.

Ps. I am not advocating immodest clothes.

‘Elven Maid’ had a good point from this young man, and you response seems to be the same thing I hear from so many women who claim the fault is on the man.
It is not just young men who have this problem, it is all men. True, there are some men that are virtuous, but that is God’s grace at work.
To claim that men are the problem and not the dress or appearance of a woman is is to ignore human nature and original sin. Sin is the problem.
I hear remarks from women sometimes who say “it is not my fault men are pigs!” Then they assume they can dress as they want.

These women ignore reality!

“Read between the lines” as it is said.
What this young man is saying is that he wants to be virtuous, but he is asking women for help. Do you see? So many young men are tying to be good and are crying out for the same thing.
God made male and female. Until the end of time we will not know the real reason why God made man and woman or why the attraction is so immense. Is it just for procreation? It is, but it isn’t. It also shows the love of God and his Church. Still, God could have done this all some other way, but He didn’t.
God made woman to be a help to man. So why not help him? That is, by you actions dear women, help men to be virtuous. Why do so many people want to have the freedom to dress how they desire, but do not want to accept responsibility.
Would it not sound crazy for a person to shoot a gun at a play ground and blame the children for getting in the way if they are shot in the middle of his recreation?
Does this sound extreme? It is! And yet when a person leads another to sin they are committing grave scandal.
Women to not have to dress like Muslims, it’s true, but they do have to face reality and dress more modest, to a certain degree. Clothes are to cover the body, not show it off. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden. They realized they were naked, so they took measures to clothes themselves in a way that was practical and appropriate. They realized that there was a problem with being naked because now they had concupiscence of the eyes and flesh…and the pride of life! This pride of life often ignores the other two.
God is our Final End. All of our actions must be done with this in mind. Not “I should be able to dress how I want”.

What is my point in all this ranting for this thread? I wish women and men would take a serious look at their motives when they dress and do anything for that matter. Are they doing these things for themselves or are they doing them to please God and out of charity for others.?

 

[Nibenon]

Hello, I am the “poor young boy” who wrote the above paragraph. For your information I am sixteen and consider myself to be a young man, not a boy.

I think the young boy who wrote the above paragraph is highly mistaken, especially when he wrote “I can admire their face, for example, not their boobs or legs.” I see nothing wrong with thinking a lady has nice legs and a nice figure. It’s called physical attraction, and it can go beyond just the face.

But when does it go beyond physical attraction and become lust?

Every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. ~Mt 5:28

In fact, it’s a great thing if it does. My husband admired those things about me when we were dating, and he admires them now that we are married and he is finally able to explore them fully and completely. So many young Christian people are so confused about sexuality and about what’s wrong and right. This poor young boy is mistaken in thinking that he’s not allowed to appreciate a women’s figure and that it must be limited only to the face.

I know I can appreciate a woman’s figure. But when a young lady is flaunting her body, it is SOOOOOO hard for a young man not to stare.

Seems to be-- a young man —who does not want to be responsible for his own thoughts–and passes the buck. Have we been raising generations of lechers.

How can a young man avoid the near occasion of sin (lust!) if the girls he is around are always wearing short-shorts of bikinis?!

Thank you.

 

[Debora123]

I’m not accusing anyone on this thread, but honestly, I think the men who complain most about what women are wearing are the ones that are the most fixated on it. I think THEY are the problem, not the clothes. And I think that instead of examining their own perversions and working on it, they instead try to take the easy way out by insisting that women cover themselves up a ridiculous amount.

I was in a “modesty” thread on here a few months ago and there was a certain young man who *insisted *that women need to be covered up all the time and dress like the Virgin Mary did 2000 years ago. A couple days after the thread was closed he added me as a friend and sent me a message saying he liked my pictures and that I should post more.

I thought it was odd that he was saying this for 2 reasons:

1. he’s married
2. my pictures included me wearing the exact clothes that he was condemning on the thread

I confronted him about this and he just responded with “oh haha well the only reason I say I don’t think women should wear those types of clothes is so that I don’t have to try to resist any temptation lol.” (and I copied and pasted the exact quote from the message.

The injustice of this made me very angry but ultimately helped me come to the realization I mentioned in the first paragraph.

More often than not, the certain MAN is the problem, not the clothes.

 

[Chen_Zhen]

How sad that a “young man” would have such vitriol towards Western Women and educated people. I think maybe Coco Chanel (if she were alive) and some of the other wonderful designers might disagree with you about being degenerate. If you have ever traveled in the East, you might see that the more wealth a person has, the more “western” they dress! I’ll pray that you realize that we are all human and just trying to be the best people we can be, even the lowly immodest woman.

I have been to many non - Western nations.
I also looked at Coco Chanel’s website. From what I saw it seemed like the company is trying to make good clothes. So why are not more companies like that? That is my point.
And that is exactly what I’m talking about. I don’t have a problem with all the educated elite and western women, but there is a problem with them when they use their talents in a way that serves themselves and not God. Additionally, many fashions today are horrible, and I mean this in an artistic way, not in regard to modesty.

I have had years of classes in art. I love art. That is why I hate so much modern fashion, it lacks any beauty. You see, I’m not here just whining about modesty.

Why do you pray I realize people are all human…even lowly immodest women?
Do you know me? You don’t. I would love it if you prayed for me, and I thank you, but please consider praying for my soul’s salvation and for my own purity.
What I want is for people to realize who and what they really are. Creatures made in the image and likeness of God, to Love and Adore God for Eternity.
Only with this in mind can people began to understand how they are to conduct themselves.

God love you!

 

[Nibenon]

More often than not, the certain MAN is the problem, not the clothes.

I respectfully disagree. I guess it’s just our points of view are rather different, biased towards our own side http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss69/LOTRfan1138/Smileys/razz.gif

This thread has gotten way off-topic.

 

[Love_Divine]

That’s the thing though. Kathleen doesn’t think certain things that YOU think are immodest are actually immodest.

It’s not what I think is immodest. It’s what the Church says is immodest. We were given guidelines from Rome on what’s modest and what isn’t.

“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”

The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII

 

[Debora123]

Hello, I am the “poor young boy” who wrote the above paragraph. For your information I am sixteen and consider myself to be a young man, not a boy.

Pardon me.

But when does it go beyond physical attraction and become lust?

When you let it. Most importantly you gotta figure out where the line is. Because physical attraction is a very good thing… lust is a very bad thing. There is definitely a big difference there, it is each person’s responsibility to figure out how to distinguish it.

I know I can appreciate a woman’s figure. But when a young lady is flaunting her body, it is SOOOOOO hard for a young man not to stare.

1. It’s a cross to carry. No one said being moral would be easy.
2. There’s nothing wrong with looking and admiring someone’s beauty. Again, there is a line there and you have to know when/what is appropriate.
3. Just because a women is not all covered up doesn’t mean she’s “flaunting her body.” I most certainly don’t “flaunt my body.” I just happen to live in a very hot place and I think I look nice in what I wear.

How can a young man avoid the near occasion of sin (lust!) if the girls he is around are always wearing short-shorts of bikinis?!

1. Once again, I think you may be confused between physical/sexual attraction and lust. Attraction is a good thing. It is not a sin. Lust is when you make the conscious, decision to let it go further to a point where you are purposely using someone for no other reason than out of gratification for yourself. If you catch a glimpse of a pretty girl and get aroused but go about your day without stopping to dwell on it, that’s perfectly ok and natural. That is not lust. That is not a sin.
2. Porn is everywhere and easily accessible… now even on the internet. If you don’t learn to control yourself in public scenarios, you won’t be able to control yourself in private either.
3. Know that it will get easier. There is nothing more sexually charged than a guy your age. Self control will only get easier the older you get. Fight through it and accept that it is your responsibility and that it shouldn’t be passed on to others.

 

[Debora123]

It’s not what I think is immodest. It’s what the Church says is immodest. We were given guidelines from Rome on what’s modest and what isn’t.

The quote you posted isn’t Church doctrine and was written in the 1950’s. The catechism recognizes that modesty of clothes is dependent on the culture.

 

[Chen_Zhen]

1. It’s a cross to carry. No one said being moral would be easy.
2. Just because a women is not all covered up doesn’t mean she’s “flaunting her body.” I most certainly don’t “flaunt my body.” I just happen to live in a very hot place and I think I look nice in what I wear.
3. Porn is everywhere and easily accessible… now even on the internet. If you don’t learn to control yourself in public scenarios, you won’t be able to control yourself in private either.
4. Know that it will get easier. There is nothing more sexually charged than a guy your age. Self control will only get easier the older you get. Fight through it and accept that it is your responsibility and that it shouldn’t be passed on to others.

 

[Love_Divine]

Living in the tropics my whole life, I’d die if I didn’t wear shorts and tank tops. It’s how all the people down here get through life everyday! It’d be downright cruel to tell someone they can’t wear shorts and tank tops when it’s 98 degrees out with 70% humidity.

Nonsense. In fact, by wearing less clothing in such conditions you’re putting yourself at an even greater risk of skin cancer by exposing your skin to UV rays. In such conditions it’s best to wear long sleeves, and clothing that covers the legs in lightweight breathable fabric in light colors that’s loose and promotes airflow.

You know, I’m sure the FSSP priests in Florida aren’t out in skimpy clothing because it’s too hot. They still sport their black cassocks, with long sleeve shirts and pants underneath. I haven’t heard of any of them dying because they keep themselves more covered than what we’re asked to do.

Furthermore, if you think where you’re living now is too hot to wear non-skimpy clothes, what do you think Hell is going to be like? I’m just saying…

 

[Elven_Maid]

1. It’s a cross to carry. No one said being moral would be easy.

Would it be so terrible for us to help our brothers carry that cross? And what of our dignity and beauty- true and inner beauty? I can see that we strongly disagree on this point but I believe clothing such as short shorts and tight low cut tank tops degrade a woman’s/girl’s beauty, femininity, and dignity. We are daughters of the King and should dress as such.
Does not every woman want the men in her life to act like knights in shining armor? How can they be expected to if we in turn do not act/ dress like ladies? I know we do not expect them to actually walk around in armor, but as Nibenon said they are much more visual than us. That doesn’t mean we have to wear out of style gowns, but can you really picture the heroine of any fairy tale wearing most of what we see in stores these days?

“Women will complain about the lack of knights in shining armor, but it hasn’t occurred to many of them that they are scarcely dressing like the chaste ladies of the days of chivalry.” Regina Doman

 

[Walking_Home]

‘Elven Maid’ had a good point from this young man, and you response seems to be the same thing I hear from so many women who claim the fault is on the man.
It is not just young men who have this problem, it is all men. True, there are some men that are virtuous, but that is God’s grace at work.
To claim that men are the problem and not the dress or appearance of a woman is is to ignore human nature and original sin. Sin is the problem.
I hear remarks from women sometimes who say “it is not my fault men are pigs!” Then they assume they can dress as they want.

These women ignore reality!

“Read between the lines” as it is said.
What this young man is saying is that he wants to be virtuous, but he is asking women for help. Do you see? So many young men are tying to be good and are crying out for the same thing.
God made male and female. Until the end of time we will not know the real reason why God made man and woman or why the attraction is so immense. Is it just for procreation? It is, but it isn’t. It also shows the love of God and his Church. Still, God could have done this all some other way, but He didn’t.
God made woman to be a help to man. So why not help him? That is, by you actions dear women, help men to be virtuous. Why do so many people want to have the freedom to dress how they desire, but do not want to accept responsibility.
Would it not sound crazy for a person to shoot a gun at a play ground and blame the children for getting in the way if they are shot in the middle of his recreation?
Does this sound extreme? It is! And yet when a person leads another to sin they are committing grave scandal.
Women to not have to dress like Muslims, it’s true, but they do have to face reality and dress more modest, to a certain degree. Clothes are to cover the body, not show it off. This is what happened in the Garden of Eden. They realized they were naked, so they took measures to clothes themselves in a way that was practical and appropriate. They realized that there was a problem with being naked because now they had concupiscence of the eyes and flesh…and the pride of life! This pride of life often ignores the other two.
God is our Final End. All of our actions must be done with this in mind. Not “I should be able to dress how I want”.

What is my point in all this ranting for this thread? I wish women and men would take a serious look at their motives when they dress and do anything for that matter. Are they doing these things for themselves or are they doing them to please God and out of charity for others.?

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The reality is–no one leads another to sin. Everyone has a choice. If a man is sees a scantily clad girl/women—he has the choice as to whether he lets his thoughts go where they should not be. This is a choice we all make.

 

[Elven_Maid]

‘Elven Maid’ had a good point from this young man, and you response seems to be the same thing I hear from so many women who claim the fault is on the man.
It is not just young men who have this problem, it is all men. True, there are some men that are virtuous, but that is God’s grace at work.
To claim that men are the problem and not the dress or appearance of a woman is is to ignore human nature and original sin. Sin is the problem.
I hear remarks from women sometimes who say “it is not my fault men are pigs!” Then they assume they can dress as they want.

These women ignore reality!

“Read between the lines” as it is said.
What this young man is saying is that he wants to be virtuous, but he is asking women for help. Do you see? So many young men are tying to be good and are crying out for the same thing.

Thank you! Well said.

 

[Walking_Home]

Would it be so terrible for us to help our brothers carry that cross? And what of our dignity and beauty- true and inner beauty? I can see that we strongly disagree on this point but I believe clothing such as short shorts and tight low cut tank tops degrade a woman’s/girl’s beauty, femininity, and dignity. We are daughters of the King and should dress as such.
Does not every woman want the men in her life to act like knights in shining armor? How can they be expected to if we in turn do not act/ dress like ladies? I know we do not expect them to actually walk around in armor, but as Nibenon said they are much more visual than us. That doesn’t mean we have to wear out of style gowns, but can you really picture the heroine of any fairy tale wearing most of what we see in stores these days?

“Women will complain about the lack of knights in shining armor, but it hasn’t occurred to many of them that they are scarcely dressing like the chaste ladies of the days of chivalry.” Regina Doman

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You know what–it would serve men, women and our Lord a whole lot better --if we teach our boys to respect **all **women—including the scantily clad ones. By teaching them to respect all–the boys/men may not be so inclined to lech after anyone.