Help for one recently returned?

[Oren]

Hi, I very recently returned to the Church. But I’m having some problems. My problem is that I don’t know what to believe and what not to believe. I don’t see the ‘post Vatican II’ parish as being able to help me…but I do not want to be disobedient to the Church. I don’t want to become SSPX or something like that is what I mean. But when I come into contact with that stuff, it seems so much better. They have these traditions…they aren’t protestantized. It just really gets me terribly irritated to hear Catholics come out with Prot phrases, but they don’t know Traditional Catholic Prayers. Even I don’t know many of them! How am I supposed to be aware of them without reading every book there is? What I mean is there is no one I can ask, there is no one who can help me be a better Catholic. I just feel very discouraged right now. And I really do not like the Novus Ordo Mass. When people tell me it is protestantized, I can’t disagree with them. I don’t question its validity. I have never even been to an Old Latin Mass. But it was like, when I converted to Catholicism, I felt like I was cheated, because it was to this ‘new’ thing, and not into what I expected. I grew up reading about the Catholic Church and seeing how it used to be, and then I come into the Church and it just isn’t there. Instead there is extraordinary ministers at every Mass, guitar masses, etc. Its hard to defend it…at least for me it is. It isn’t that I don’t think I can ‘become’ a Catholic on my own (because there is no help anymore, RCIA is a joke) its that I know I am so vulnerable on my own. And I have no recourse, there are only two parishes in my area, and both are charismatic, one very much so. And they do things in these Masses that are illicit, which even I know are illicit even though I am new. The only thing I can do is go to the internet and books, research, and see how it ‘should’ be…but I am left in these parishes to be discouraged, disheartened, and just sad. I know I am not the only one…but i don’t know what I can do. I cannot drive to another parish. I cannot move. I am in college, and I and my family are pretty poor. There are no indult Latin Masses in the entire state I live in. The nearest one is like 5 hours away in another state. I used to have a couple friends who were Catholic, now they are Eastern Orthodox…and I have no other friends who are Catholic, my family isn’t Catholic, none of my friends or family are even Christian. I guess I just feel alone and left out in the cold. Im so new, how can I realize what is right and what isn’t? I get so many things wrong! For the longest time I had no idea about ‘Fish Fridays’, I knew nothing about it. That’s just one example. I try and try, I research and research, but there’s only so many things I can read. And while I’m doing that I’m still in the dark. It would be ok to go to a Novus Ordo Parish, but they can’t even get it right, and there is no help for me in learning to completely think, act and be Catholic. sigh This post is long enough, but I still have so many things I could say. Any advice would be welcome.

 

[JCPhoenix]

HI! I completely understand where you’re coming from, and it sounds to me like you’re in between a rock and a hard place.

Pray, read…and pray some more. God will provide. Now, that said, here’s what I recommend.

When I came back to the church (I was a fallen away Catholic, but never considered myself anything but Catholic), I realized that I didn’t understand why we do what we do. I just happened to find a book called, “Why do Catholics DO That?” It was awesome! So if you can, pick up a copy of it. Feel free to e-mail me, and I’ll look up teh book somewhere in my house and get you the ISBN number in case you have to order it.

Also pick up a Catechism…this will answer a LOT of your questions and some you didnt’ even know you had!

Come here as much as possible, and if you have EWTN, try to watch that to help you recognize orthodox from…uh…non.

I, too, once lived in an area surrounded by churches which just weren’t right, although I couldn’t always say exactly why. Well, now, in looking back, I do know.

You know, what really strikes me about your post is that somehow, the Holy Spirit has asked you to make this journey with no human support. This is a great blessing and something not everyone could take on. There is a reason you are being asked to go through this, and I really pray you take this time to thoroughly understand Catholicism…you could end up leading others to the faith!

 

[KennySe]

Hello, Oren.

I see that you are in MN where some Catholic churches have been “replaced with”, or renamed “communities”.

In reading your post, I was reminded of a nun, who was doing missionary work in Africa among muslims and pagans (This was centuries ago.)
For over 30 years she was unable to attend Mass or receive Holy Eucharist, because there was no priest near her.

And I was reminded of prisoners-of-war held for years, with no priest.

And I was reminded of a 13 year old boy, who was born and raised Baptist, who is drawn to the Catholic Church, who is studying It online, even as his mother is very anti-Catholic.

I will pray that you are comforted by Blessed Mary, our Mother.

If you desire a more sociable Catholic messageboard, I humbly refer you to www.christianforums.com/f26

Peace be with you.

 

[Pro_Iesu]

Hey welcome back! I hope i don’t flood you with information cuz this is kind of long winded.

A few things first the Novus Ordo can and is a beautiful Mass if done correctly. What you may have seen could have been abuses to the sacred liturgy in the “spirit” of Vatican 2. KNow that recently the Pope has addressed this problem with Redemptionis Sacramentum which outlines to the bishops, priests, deacons, and layity what their proper place and the proper practice at Mass. If you do find problems around the area first discuss it with the priest backing it up with facts peacefully(I’d suggest doing this after you have learned more about the faith). Be sure not to attack him because he may not know what he has done is wrong(there have been probelems with teachings in seminaries in the past). If after a peaceful discussion he chooses not to do something about it write to the bishop of the diocese in a peaceful manner as well (they are real busy and have been under alot of pressure in recent times). If at this point nothing gets done go to the Vatican. ( these kinds of abuse also happened with the tridintine Mass pre Vatican 2 with such abuses as 15 Min masses etc)

Now it is alright to prefer to go to a tridintine Mass. Just be sure to go to an approved one in your diocese.

Reading is always great but be wary of extremist groups that are way liberal or way conservative because each extreme tends to cut itself off from the hierarchy and the proper teachings.

So remember don’t leave Peter because of Judas, we have been through many trials and we know we will overcome them. Go to Mass, Pray the rosary, go to adoration if you can and read.

Your in our prayers always!

 

[jmm08]

If you have any local Catholic Religious (for example here we have Benedictine Sisters), see if they have any seminars or retreats that would help you.

Just because a mass isn’t tridentine doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.
The new mass works fine for me.

But I’m fairly new.
I’m soon starting RCIA / RCIC.

 

[St.Ambrose]

I feel for you. I grew up RCC, converted to Protestantism because they had answers and the Catholics I knew did not. Later I came back to RCC and experienced many of things you mention and got little sympathy from those in my parish - in fact my hang-ups and problems usually inspired irritation from them.

I left after 6 months and was Eastern Orthodox for 1 year then returned (and stayed) RCC. I finally returned because I realized that outside of Rome there is no doctrinal surity/security and truth is very important.

Reverant liturgies are important, too, but not as important as truth. Seek out latin indult mass and eastern catholic masses - both are more reverantly done than the N.O. and might be just what you need. If neither of these are available to you then I’m going to suggest that you do what I usually do: suffer through going to the NO. Yes, it’s ugly and not reverant enough and Protestantized. Nevertheless, Christ Himself commands that I attend holy mass and the NO is holy because Christ and His Church are holy and it’s mass. I go out of sheer obedience and usually “get” nothing out of it experientially though I know that factually having rec’d Christ in the Eucharist is a reality anyway.

Hi, I very recently returned to the Church. But I’m having some problems.

Not surprised. The devil hates the Church and wants you out of it.

My problem is that I don’t know what to believe and what not to believe. I don’t see the ‘post Vatican II’ parish as being able to help me…but I do not want to be disobedient to the Church.

Check out Opus Dei or Regnum Christi groups - both are faithful to the Church and will be able to provide you with the sort of guidance you are looking for… and you’ll be getting it from a source inside the Church!

I don’t want to become SSPX or something like that is what I mean. But when I come into contact with that stuff, it seems so much better. They have these traditions…

Throughout the ages it has been a problem that people have been in lukewarm settings within the Church and they have been tempted to leave for a schismatic/Protestant group that is more reverant, traditional, etc. These groups achieve these states by selectively including people - i.e., every so many years when the group they are a part of exhibits the symptoms you give then they schism again to form a new, pristine group… which over time becomes “tainted” and they schism again. This is how thousands of Protestant groups came into being - and it is not a path you should follow. Christ EXPECTS us to suffer at times and you may have to suffer the things you mention while you stay in the Church.

It just really gets me terribly irritated to hear Catholics come out with Prot phrases, but they don’t know Traditional Catholic Prayers.

Again, I suggest the latin indult mass or eastern catholic mass - at both you’ll find people who are much more concerned about traditional prayers than hip Protestant sayings.

It isn’t that I don’t think I can ‘become’ a Catholic on my own (because there is no help anymore, RCIA is a joke) its that I know I am so vulnerable on my own.

You need spiritual direction. Regnum Christi and Opus Dei can provide it.

I cannot drive to another parish.

If you have a car then consider being willing to drive as far as one hour to attend a mass that would be reverantly done. I am currently driving one hour to attend indult mass (well, I just started doing this).

You can e-mail me and discuss these struggles further if ya’ want. I’ve had similar struggles and would be a sympathetic listener. I can e-mail you my phone # and we can talk by phone, too, if you want.

Eric Myers aka St. Ambrose
myers.eric@usa.net

 

[Oren]

Thank you all for the advice and information. Yes, I have thought about it as a blessing before…the thing is I just don’t think Im good enough for that much of a blessing heh. I’m just worried about doing something wrong again. I left for the Eastern Orthodox Church as well St. Ambrose, but it was only for a few months, and I wasn’t chrismated or anything. I think it has made me stronger in my faith, to have gone through that, and come back. If I could say that. But I’m still so unsure of myself. I just did something this past week that I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to…yet another example of not knowing anything. No wonder God made the family, its a way better teacher than any research could be. For those cradle catholics. Anyways, thanks again, I’m going to try to be weak so God can be strong in me . St. Ambrose, I was thinking that maybe I could drive somewhere, at least sometimes, but I’d have to figure out where to go first heh. But again, no Indult Mass in my whole state. Well, thanks again everybody, I hope I still get more advice though.

 

[CARose]

Orem,

Welcome Home, we’ve missed you!

I too am a revert, and I believe we can say that our Faith and understanding of all things Catholic have been strengthened by our journey. God makes all things good.

Now does this mean I would recommend that all young people wander out in the desert, seeking truth and wisdom without a guide? No, a lot of people die in the desert, and I am so glad that this was not God’s plan for my life and that, in my search, my unbelief, my willfulness, my sin and my confusion, I still harbored a deep (though often times hidden) love for God and desire to ultimately get it right!

I believe that between my desire for God (as hidden as it often was/is beneath my Pride of believing I could/can do it myself - something I struggle with daily) and the Graces I received in Confirmation (even if I wasn’t open to them for quite a long time), God was thrilled to have me turn back towards him and provided me with the grace necessary to return to the fold. All I had to do was ask.

I remember sitting in Mass, after being back since the Fall. It was Lent and Easter was approaching. My problem was different than yours in that I had different expectations for what I wanted in my Mass, but there I was not having Mass meet “my needs” and I looked up at the crucifix and offered it up. I accepted as my penance for leaving all the Masses that I might come my way that would not “meet my needs” in reparation for my sins. I accepted this penance, knowing that it was my responsibility to accept the Church as she is given to me, first and foremost. God in His infinite wisdom knows better than I what I need and how I am to be used.

Therefore, I am to trust that I am where I am needed, when I am needed and I am given what I need when I need it. I’ll tell you that I was incredibly blessed in that the vary next Mass spoke to my heart (same parish, same pastor). So what changed, the pastor, a 65 year old priest who had already been at the parish for 5 years? I’m guessing the change wasn’t outside me.

We also had a string of speakers who addressed a series of topics that were exactly what I needed at that particular moment. My leanings were towards liberalism, having been raised “in the Spirit of Vatican II”, but my heart recognized an emptiness of much which is taught in that vane. So here I was, in a parish with an extremely well informed, very Faithful Pastor who desired greatly that his flock come to better know Christ, either through his own efforts or the talents of others who are faithful to the Magesterium and teachings of the Church.

I suggest you stay focused on the Church, accepting that for some reason, you are exactly where you are supposed to be and you have available to you the resources necessary to make a difference in yourself and those around you. Use this forum as a resource, read, read, read. Anything Scott Hahn is excellent, Father Corapi as well, Fulton Sheen (I haven’t read him yet, but I’ve got a couple of books I need to get to), read Story of a Soul (St. Theresa, the Little Flower) and books by and about other Saints.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there, but while you’re still new, I’d recommend you stay focused on reading only that which accepts the Fullness of the Truth in union with the Pope, our Holy Father, John Paul II.

If reading doesn’t work for you, there are books on tape, lectures on tape, videos, conferences, Catholic cruises, and Pilgrimages.

cont…

 

[CARose]

cont …

If you feel you absolutely must have “community” you can consider any of the following, but remember to keep your emphasis on “Communion”, the special privilege which draws us back to the Faith, as we seek to be in full Communion with Him.

As previously mentioned in this thread, there are fraternal and religious organizations you can join. While I am in the process of discerning such a call myself, may I make a suggestion. Give yourself time. Learn more about yourself before you join something as binding as Opus Dei or Regnum Christi. I say this while having only the greatest respect for these holy gatherings. But we each have a calling and God desires that we wait for his greatest joy. Give yourself time to know where you are meant to serve. A less binding social group within your parish, or parish sponsored study groups, even perhaps the RCIA using the topics they cover as a guide for what to research on your own each week.

You could bring your questions here, get guidance and resources and see what happens when you bring it back. What I suggest could create discord, so you need to proceed with Love for the Truth and Love for all those you encounter in your search for the Truth in it’s fullness, especially those who give their time to teach. Remember to pray constantly, especially for your parish, the one that you live in, and your pastor. They need your prayers if they are to return to some degree of Orthodoxy if what you say is correct.

And you may want to re-read the post by Pro Iesu. Good work, I am impressed that someone as young as your profile suggests you are is so well informed on matters of the Faith. If you are an example of what we have to look forward to in the coming generations, the Church is in good hands!

so, back to you Orem. You might find that you are meant to be a quiet example of Holiness in your parish. Find time to visit the Eucharist, even if they don’t have adoration on the schedule, ask if you can visit on a regular basis, accept whatever time they offer, find a way to make it work for you, even if it’s inconvenient. Be a humble example of obedience, even without the community to support you.

You have Christ, Christ present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the tabernacle (hopefully at the front of the church). Visit Him, commune with Him, use the sacrament of confession at a minimum once a month, more often if it’s available, and don’t worry if you don’t feel your confessor is “giving you anything” you’re getting the absolution only he can give. I have encountered a bad confessor, in that the penance he imposed caused me grave distress, such that I had to go to my regular confessor (who had been out of town at the time) to work it out, so if it get’s too tough, find another, more faithful confessor, but try to accept what you get in your home parish.

I had an experience where I believe my belief was brought to a priest when I went to him for advice while I was traveling. The Holy Spirit is with you, so pray and be faithful.

Go with God,

CARose

 

[Christy_Beth]

I’m a convert, and there have been several things that I found hard to accept. One thing that hindered my coming into the church was the teachings about Mary. They still give me problems, but I have learned to accept church teaching on these. Being brought up protestant, there was no reference to Mary outside of her relation to the Nativity. Otherwise, she was ignored. And I had a real problem with the RCC paying so much attention to her.

Actually, sometimes I still do. I’ve been a catholic now for a little over 7 years. And sometimes I find myself wondering about all the attention she gets. It’s hard to get over the prejudices you are brought up with for many years. I’m still learning, and have learned, most of all, to trust in God and His concern for me. He will teach me what I need to know and when I need to know it.

 

[Toni]

JCPhoenix:

Pray, read…and pray some more. God will provide. Now, that said, here’s what I recommend.

Also pick up a Catechism…this will answer a LOT of your questions and some you didnt’ even know you had!

Come here as much as possible, and if you have EWTN, try to watch that to help you recognize orthodox from…uh…non.

The catechism is the best! But even if you check into the faith and life series on catechism they are great and true to Rome and you can go back to the early grades, and pick up things you may have missed. Sometimes the catechism is hard to read, I found especially when I came back. I have learned more from working with the children because its the basics.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Try www.adoremus.org for information on the liturgy. It is a bit sensationalized, but it is very faithful to Rome.

Liturgy has always had problems, all the way back to the twelve. Any reading of St. Pauls letters will show that!

I have had many of the same experiences as you, though I have never left the RCC. One thing that I have learned, is that there is a very human element to the directions of the church.
Often, the rules are insufficiently explaned, such that even a priest could legitimately be ignorant of certain rules.

For example, during Eucharistic exposition repetitive prayers are illicit according to one rule, but in another place a rule explicity makes exception for the Rosary!
There is no single rulebook on the liturgy.
Even canon law, which governs most of a Catholics life opts out when it comes to some liturgical details (see canon #3 I believe).

When in doubt, canons are written to give You and I the benefit of the doubt. No one can perfectly follow all the rules.

The new IGMR/GIRM and the standing posture due to my bishop in western Oregon was a real problem for me!
According to the GIRM I was required to stand, because my archbishop said so, but my parish priest had a different opinion.
There was no winning solution.
I found out, after a confrontation which I was trying to avoid, that I could have knelt or stood. Rome didn’t want the rule to be rigid. But no one, (and I asked five representatives, BCL, three people at my archdiocese, and even Catholic Answers) what some background information was on the change.
No one knew. Studying history of liturgy just made things worse.

At the adoremus site, at least I found a document from Rome telling me that (for me, but not my parish priest to insist), it was O.K. to kneel regardless what the bishop said.

Sometimes it is impossible to do the right thing out of ignorance, but at some point the conclusion has to be reached that it is the teacher (pastor’s) fault or it is excusable.
Many Illicit things can be glossed over, just watch out the invalidating ones!

If you have specific questions, try the ask an apologist section on this website. If you want to trade personal experiences, send me a private message.

Pax Christi.

 

[ATeNumquam]

Christy Beth:

I’m a convert, and there have been several things that I found hard to accept. One thing that hindered my coming into the church was the teachings about Mary. They still give me problems, but I have learned to accept church teaching on these. Being brought up protestant, there was no reference to Mary outside of her relation to the Nativity. Otherwise, she was ignored. And I had a real problem with the RCC paying so much attention to her.

Actually, sometimes I still do. I’ve been a catholic now for a little over 7 years. And sometimes I find myself wondering about all the attention she gets. It’s hard to get over the prejudices you are brought up with for many years. I’m still learning, and have learned, most of all, to trust in God and His concern for me. He will teach me what I need to know and when I need to know it.

Don’t let this worry you too much, Christy Beth. I’m a convert of 37 years and for about 30 years I was still bothered a little about Mary, even though intellectually accepting the Church’s veneration of her. It was more the devotions of others that troubled me - the prejudices of one’s past upbringing (however distant!!) can cling on for ages. I never let on too much, in case anyone thought I wasn’t a “proper” Catholic (but I KNEW I was 100% devoted and totally accepting of all the Church’s teachings). I had no problems with anything else.

I know I probably still don’t have the same “felt” devotion that most other devout Catholics have towards her, but as long as I “will” to hold her in the utmost respect and veneration, I think that’s OK - for both of us!

---

A Te numquam separari permittas - never let me be separated from You

 

[CARose]

I, even as a cradle Catholic, once had questions about Mary, so severe that they become a serious part of why I severed from the Church for nearly 20 years. I came back, and my first tentative prayer on the start of my return was at her statue.

I now, many years later, have a very special devotion to Mary, for all the spiritual gifts she has heaped upon me and mine. She has been behind many incredible things in my life, so I have no doubt as to her special place in Christ’s heart.

But, I now have a friend who is holding off from coming to the Church because of her discomfort with Mary’s place on our lives. Could you better state your concerns so I might consider the objections in another light?

Thanks,

CARose

 

[mercygate]

jmm08:

If you have any local Catholic Religious (for example here we have Benedictine Sisters), see if they have any seminars or retreats that would help you.

Be VERY cautious about Religious communities. Many are orthodox but many are seedbeds of doctrinal chaos. I would be especially chary of communities associated with the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. There are no guarantees, but you would probably have better luck with communities associated with the Institute on Religious Life.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Even canon law, which governs most of a Catholics life opts out when it comes to some liturgical details (see canon #3 I believe).

Looked it up, it’s actually cannon #2, although canons trump other liturgical law when conflicts occur.