Help from some knowledgeable Apologists

[crono_vivi]

I post a lot on another forum; which also happens to have a Religion board. I was explaining to someone(big supporter of the whole “YHWH” thing) reasons why I’m Catholic, etc using some of the info in my last thread and what I have read. This is the message he said, can you guys explain/refute any of this?

Red=What I had said
Green=What he said

First of all, the most common thing said, it WAS the church founded by Christ.

Christianity is a false, pagan religion, and it is all due to the Roman Catholic Church. The false doctrines of pagan Rome and Greece influence her theologies. And the reason why they justify it is because they are without law. They don’t know YHWH’s will. They have said his law is done away with. That is why Daniel speaks of the “Mystery of Iniquity/Lawlessness”. Who says there is no law? Christianity.

And if Moshiach said his people are the “little flock” and that few find the way that leads to life, why then are there nearly 1 billion Catholics? Why one billion Christians? Why has she influenced the world so much? She is driven by Satan, who “decieved the whole world”, as is stated by Paul, I believe.

No if’s/ands/or buts about it.

Not at all. No “ifs/ands/buts” were given in my sentence above.

NONE of the teachings of the RC go against Scripture, and MOST are SUPPORTED by Scripture.

This, simply, is not the truth.

It is the Church that constructed the Bible; without the Catholic Church we wouldn’t have had the Bible.

Which is why I do not trust everything in it.

You cannot interpret Scripture by yourself. “First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” (1 Peter 1:20)

First of all, this is in 2 Peter, not 1 Peter. And this is taken out of context. He is talking about prophesy. The prophesy of the scripture. And you have to understand the next verse and the verses before it to get this verse. He is saying that even though he had seen Yahshua in glory on the mount and heard the voice of the Father from heaven, he had something even more sure than this testimony: that the scripture had predicted already, the coming of Moshiach. No man just made up the truth of that prophecy. But it was Elohim that preicted these things.

It is not saying that no one cannot interpret scripture…

You need someone with authority appointed by God to explain God’s word. Read the story of Philip & the eunuch in Acts 8:26-39. The eunuch says, “How can I [understand this] unless some one guides me?” The person qualified to explain was Philip, an Apostle of Christ. God didn’t just abandon us with the Bible, but gave us a church to preserve and explain all His teachings, not just those found in the Bible.

Philip didn’t have the “bible”, he was reading from Isaiah. And the reason he didn’t understand it is because he was unfamiliar with it. He had no clue what it was talking about.

And what “church” did Elohim give us? Where is it in the bible?

The Bible doesn’t have everything in it. “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book” (John 20:30) “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)

The author of the book of John was speaking of the book he was writing (the book called the book of John) not any canonized “bible”. There was none.

If there is any scriptures you can use to lean on, you can use the Tanach, or what is called the “old testament”. That is what Yahshua lived by. There are other books outide the canon of scripture that are useful, but you have to be careful on which ones are off and which ones are good for doctrine.

If they do not line up with what is written in the Hebrew canon of scripture, the Tanach, it is not to be trusted.

 

[Church_Militant]

Is your friend perchance a member of the Hebrew Israelites because his terminology sounds like it? You may find that you are “fighting a losing battle”, but I’ll try to help and recommend some materials that you might wanna invest in.

The “Paganization” of Catholicism is an anti-Catholic myth &
is completely inaccurate. Constantine was raised a Christian and was in fact baptized on his death bed. His mother was a very devout Catholic as well.

The allegation that the Catholic Church returned to paganism at that time is ludicrous since less than 50 years later, The Roman Emperor Julian initiated a persecution of the church because it wasn’t pagan and he wanted it to return. This is simple historical fact. Why would he have done this if we were already pagan? wacko.gif That makes no sense whatever.

The fact is that there is plenty of historical record of all the heresies and persecutions that the church endured, but this so called “great apostasy” theory that many non-Catholics allege has NO historical proof to support it and no one that I’ve ever heard allege this has been able to provide unbiased historical evidence to prove their case because although there are books out there (like the writings of Ellen G. Wright of the 7th Day Adventists) that consist of nothing more than unsubstantiated and undocumented allegations.

I would defy him to provide unbiased historical proof from early church writings that this “great apostasy” occurred. He cannot do it because such evidence does not exist. However all the heresies down through the last 2,000 years have been answered by councils of the Catholic Church.

I suggest that you use the Eucharistic passages to begin with to point up the scriptural basis for Cathholic teaching as just one of many possible examples. You can get a good case for that Here

That is just his interp of what he believes. You are probably wasting your time contesting the interp of scripture because he has already shown you that he values your beliefs and the opinion of the real Church at zero and his is correct.

If the person in question is not Jewish, (and I can tell from his mangled Hebrew spellings that he isn’t), then he is simply parroting the things that he has read and been told.

His remarks about the canon are wrong anyway and there is reference to the ECF in this artilcle on The Canon of Scripture

You really need the Beginning Apologetics series from San Juan Catholic Seminars SJCS They are excellent sources for serious discussions and VERY affordable.
I hope I have been some help and I hope this person is not a close friend because they are really hostile to your faith and you may lose them. You are both in my prayers.
Pax tecum,

 

[mercygate]

crono, you have a big heart, and I commend your efforts, which are pretty good considering what little I know of your story from the other thread. Not bad at all. Apologetics will certainly teach you your faith in a hurry!

While you are making these efforts, realize that none of it will be worth ANYTHING, and you may even do harm to your interlocutor and shoot yourself in your own spiritual foot if you do not ground everything in prayer. Pray your brains out! Go to the Blessed Sacrament – just stay with the Boss and ask him to fill your heart with his love.

I know it is tempting to enter into lively give-and-take, and scoring “points” can be self-satisfying. But ultimately, we are not in that kind of battle. We are in the battle to allow ourselves to decrease so that Christ may increase. Pray the Bible – daily.

I think you’ve begun the journey!

 

[Genesis315]

crono_vivi:

Christianity is a false, pagan religion, and it is all due to the Roman Catholic Church. The false doctrines of pagan Rome and Greece influence her theologies.

CM answered this nicely.

And the reason why they justify it is because they are without law. They don’t know YHWH’s will. They have said his law is done away with. That is why Daniel speaks of the “Mystery of Iniquity/Lawlessness”. Who says there is no law? Christianity.

This one makes me laugh. If it’s anything the Catholic Church is accused of more is that we have too many rules and laws. I could see this argument being used against non-denom Chrisitans, but definitely not the Catholic Church. Tell him to read the Catechism and see how the law of God is dealt with (ie read the sections on the 10 Commandments).

And if Moshiach said his people are the “little flock” and that few find the way that leads to life, why then are there nearly 1 billion Catholics? Why one billion Christians? Why has she influenced the world so much? She is driven by Satan, who “decieved the whole world”, as is stated by Paul, I believe.

Well, first of all, not all Catholics or Christians are going to heaven. In fact, it may be the case that few do. Think about it. How many people do you know that are Catholic but don’t really live the faith? I’m not condemning these people, but you can see how just “being Catholic” isn’t a free ticket in to Heaven.

NONE of the teachings of the RC go against Scripture, and MOST are SUPPORTED by Scripture.

This, simply, is not the truth.

Ummm. Ok, here is where you should have made him provide proof. Then, anything he may come up with, you could send here (if you couldn’t already answer it) and we would easily refute it.

It is the Church that constructed the Bible; without the Catholic Church we wouldn’t have had the Bible.

Which is why I do not trust everything in it.

Ok this is key. Your friend himself decides what is true in the Bible and what is not. How is this any more authoratative than what the Apostles (the guys who physically hung out with Jesus for 3 years and witnessed everything and then died horrible deaths for it) and their successors have taught for 2000 years?

 

[Genesis315]

You cannot interpret Scripture by yourself. “First of all you must understand this, that no prophesy is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” (1 Peter 1:20)

First of all, this is in 2 Peter, not 1 Peter. And this is taken out of context. He is talking about prophesy. The prophesy of the scripture. And you have to understand the next verse and the verses before it to get this verse. He is saying that even though he had seen Yahshua in glory on the mount and heard the voice of the Father from heaven, he had something even more sure than this testimony: that the scripture had predicted already, the coming of Moshiach. No man just made up the truth of that prophecy. But it was Elohim that preicted these things.

It is not saying that no one cannot interpret scripture…

You need someone with authority appointed by God to explain God’s word. Read the story of Philip & the eunuch in Acts 8:26-39. The eunuch says, “How can I [understand this] unless some one guides me?” The person qualified to explain was Philip, an Apostle of Christ. God didn’t just abandon us with the Bible, but gave us a church to preserve and explain all His teachings, not just those found in the Bible.

Philip didn’t have the “bible”, he was reading from Isaiah. And the reason he didn’t understand it is because he was unfamiliar with it. He had no clue what it was talking about.

And what “church” did Elohim give us? Where is it in the bible?

The Bible doesn’t have everything in it. “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book” (John 20:30) “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” (John 21:25)

The author of the book of John was speaking of the book he was writing (the book called the book of John) not any canonized “bible”. There was none.

If there is any scriptures you can use to lean on, you can use the Tanach, or what is called the “old testament”. That is what Yahshua lived by. There are other books outide the canon of scripture that are useful, but you have to be careful on which ones are off and which ones are good for doctrine.

If they do not line up with what is written in the Hebrew canon of scripture, the Tanach, it is not to be trusted.

Again, more personal interpretation whithout anythink to back it up. Your friend is like the pope of his own one-man religion, although I’m sure he’ll buy into the interpretations of who ever came up with the ideas he espouses.

I would ask your friend where his priests are and where he makes sacrafices (since this is all in the OT). Or is he wating for the temple to be rebuilt? If he is wating for this, tell him it is totally against the Hebrew OT. Malachi prophecies that the Temple will be shut down and instead a pure sacrafice will be perpetually offered up by Gentiles (non-Jews, “the nations” in some new translations). (Mal. 1:10-11). This perpetual, pure Sacrafice (Christ’s Crucifixion) is offered up perpetually in the Catholic Mass.

 

[crono_vivi]

Here’s more things that he said:

And how can you be so sure…??? There are no “church fathers”. We have one Father and ultimate authority on doctrine: YHWH Elohim.

**They were all close friends with the Apostles; some by blood. **

Lie. Not you being the liar but you’ve been told a lie.

Elohim did not give us the Catholic church, Jesus Christ did.

And how did this “Jesus Christ” give it to you? Is this Catholic Church Israel? Did you know that “Jesus Christ” is a pagan name? Do you know how much paganism is in Catholic doctrine? You should know that Catholic means “universal”. And “universal” includes everbody. Catholics have adopted pagan doctrine from many places (a.k.a. “universal” places).

**Peter was the first of Apostolic Succession; the first Bishop of Rome; the first Pope. **

Wrong. Peter never went to Rome. Peter was an apostle of the Jews a.k.a circumcision. Paul was the one who went to Rome. If there was such a thing set up by Elohim as the “pope” then Paul should be it, not Peter. And Matt 16:18 has been misinterpreted.

An “anti-Catholic” lie is most likely to be truth. Christianity is pagan and I can give you multiple reasons as to why it is and show you many pagan practices.

Again, I can show you multiple of her false doctrines and show that Catholicism and Christianity as a whole is pagan.

You said you were raised in this way, in Catholicism. I think that fact has overtaken you. Catholics, Protestants, all of Christianity.

False and pagan.

LOL! He claims to have all this information on saying Doctrine goes against scripture, it’s Pagan, but he won’t. And I have NO idea how he doesn’t think Peter is the first Bishop of Rome; that’s common knowledge.

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

This guy is just nuts. I wouldn’t even talk to him. I agree to simply pray for him.

 

[Genesis315]

crono_vivi:

Here’s more things that he said:

And how can you be so sure…??? There are no “church fathers”. We have one Father and ultimate authority on doctrine: YHWH Elohim.

**They were all close friends with the Apostles; some by blood. **

Lie. Not you being the liar but you’ve been told a lie.

“Church fathers” is a title, kind of like founding fathers. Again, this guy calls it a lie with absolutely zero proof. Please tell him to provide proof of people throughout history actually believing what he does. Is he Jewish? Again, look at the martyred Apostles. Why did they die horrible deaths? We have Peter’s body which was crucified upside down.

Elohim did not give us the Catholic church, Jesus Christ did.

And how did this “Jesus Christ” give it to you? Is this Catholic Church Israel? Did you know that “Jesus Christ” is a pagan name? Do you know how much paganism is in Catholic doctrine? You should know that Catholic means “universal”. And “universal” includes everbody. Catholics have adopted pagan doctrine from many places (a.k.a. “universal” places).

Yep, this Catholic Church IS the new Israel. And of course Catholic means universal. God created everyone and desires the Salvation of all. That is why the Church is open to everyone to join, not just one specific race. Again, he needs to provide proof of Pagan doctrine.

**

**Peter was the first of Apostolic Succession; the first Bishop of Rome; the first Pope. **

**

Wrong. Peter never went to Rome. Peter was an apostle of the Jews a.k.a circumcision. Paul was the one who went to Rome. If there was such a thing set up by Elohim as the “pope” then Paul should be it, not Peter. And Matt 16:18 has been misinterpreted.

Peter in one of his epistles says he is writing from “Babylon” which was code for Rome. Peter’s remains are buried in Rome as well. This guy has a really bad grasp of history. As for misinterpretation, this guy needs to prove it.

An “anti-Catholic” lie is most likely to be truth. Christianity is pagan and I can give you multiple reasons as to why it is and show you many pagan practices.

And here his true colors show. Where is the paganism? The sacrafice of the Mass and the Eucharist are ALL prefigured from the NT, as well as the Messiah’s suffering.

Again, I can show you multiple of her false doctrines and show that Catholicism and Christianity as a whole is pagan.

Again, empty statements.

You said you were raised in this way, in Catholicism. I think that fact has overtaken you. Catholics, Protestants, all of Christianity.

False and pagan.

Again, no proof. This guy is one horrible apoloigist, lol. You’re suppose to provide reasoned arguments, not just make empty accusations.

LOL! He claims to have all this information on saying Doctrine goes against scripture, it’s Pagan, but he won’t. And I have NO idea how he doesn’t think Peter is the first Bishop of Rome; that’s common knowledge

This guy probably just thinks it’s cool to be in some religion that teaches you that you’re one of the select few that’s hip to the whole “scam” of Christianity. I imagine he’s a young guy who’s just going through a phase.

 

[Ignatius]

crono_vivi:

I post a lot on another forum; which also happens to have a Religion board. I was explaining to someone(big supporter of the whole “YHWH” thing) reasons why I’m Catholic, etc using some of the info in my last thread and what I have read. This is the message he said, can you guys explain/refute any of this?

You might refer him to these links and ask him to respond after he’s read them:

secondexodus.com/html/sitedesign/israeliteheritage.htm
secondexodus.com/html/sitedesign/defendingthecatholicfaith.htm
hebrewcatholic.org/

 

[crono_vivi]

I asked him what religion he was and he said that he was a Messianic Jew. He is also 17 years old.

I will definately look over those sites though.

 

[mercygate]

crono_vivi:

I asked him what religion he was and he said that he was a Messianic Jew. He is also 17 years old.

I will definately look over those sites though.

crono – looks like you’re involved with someone whose final answer to everything is going to be that the Church suppressed the truth so that nobody would ever find out how awful she was.

Pray for this guy. This looks like a case where facts will only muddy the water. He sounds like those “Trail of Blood” people who claim the true church was Baptist and that Catholics persecuted it nearly out of existence but the 'true remnant" survived underground to emerge at the Reformation. How do they know that? Where are the historical records? Well, they just “know” it – because the historical records were all destroyed by the Catholics, of course!

Ain’t no winnin’!

Take the advice I gave you on the other thread: spend time with the Blessed Sacrament.

You pretty good about going to confession, too? Hope so. But I wouldn’t be surprised (considering what you told us about your Confirmation prep) if that kind of got lost in the shuffle.

God bless you, crono. You’re in my prayers. PM me if you’re willing to share your real name with me so I can add a little personal clout when I’m pestering the Boss on your behalf.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

if Moshiach said his people are the “little flock” and that few find the way that leads to life, why then are there nearly 1 billion Catholics? Why one billion Christians? Why has she influenced the world so much? She is driven by Satan, who “decieved the whole world”, as is stated by Paul, I believe.

Hmmm… I think your antagonist can use a math tutor…

Yes, there are about 1.1 billion people professing to be Catholic. That is, only 1/6 of all the people on earth. This appears to be a “few” even if they all were to attain eternal life. But not all Catholics are destined to eternal life. Only those who are joined to the Church in soul are on the way of salvation. So this “few” may become even less in practice.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

They have said his law is done away with.

No. Catholicism retains the immutable moral aspects of the Divine Law. What is non-immutable, and has never been immutable, are the civil and ecclesiastical aspects of the Divine Law.

Do Messianic Jews offer Passover sacrifices in accord with the Hebrew Law? I would argue that no Jew can, because the only Biblically authorized place to offer such Passover sacrifices is the Holy Temple, which was destroyed in AD 70. So, of the approx. 4,000 years of existence of Judaism, the last 2,000 have been in “exile” from their Temple worship as presecribed by Divine Law. In my opinion, that ought to be a significant sign to Judaism in all its modern forms, to include Messianic Judaism, that they are in exile. One ought to wonder why they are in exile, and why such an incredibly long exile. The worst Judaic exile prior to that was the Babylonian exile, which only lasted for a few generations I believe. The Babylonian exile, according the Hebrew Scripture, was Divine punishment for sins. Whatever it was that occurred right before AD 70 must have really been displeasing to God for Judaism to be enduring such an incredibly long lasting exile from the Temple worship prescribed by Divine Law.

Thus, no Jew can obey the Hebrew Scriptures as they are written. Consequently, modern rabbinic Judaism (and all other variant forms of Judaism) was born after AD 70, and it is clearly a non-compliant form of Judaism in the sense that that Divine Law cannot be and is not followed as written in the Hebrew Scriptures.

For example, the Divine precepts of the Passover Seder cannot be accomplished Biblically, insofar as they are to slay a lamb and eat it as prescribed by Scripture. Why? They have no Temple. The only place where such Passover sacrifice can be Scripturally offered is the place where the Temple in Jerusalem once stood. So instead, their Seder Meal is without a sacrficial lamb. Do they disobey the Divine Law? That sword can cut both ways, no?

 

[crono_vivi]

Here’s some more stuff he said:

Everyone did join, and they brought their paganism with them. The concept of the trinity, taken from egyptians mythology and others ,and the idea that mary was without sin, (although only YHWH can be without sin), the preaching of Yahshua against calling a man “father”, which is blasphemy. And the fact the Jesus Christ is really a pagan deity. He is not the man called Yahshua. That is why the name is important. If you trace “Jesus Christ” back to where that came from and trace why YHWH was rendered “the LORD” you will see where they got that from and why it is pagan.

Why did Satan’s name stay the same throughout scripture, but every one wants to change the name of YHWH? The bible says that we can be saved by no other name, so naturally, that will be the first thing the devil attacks and distorts.

Do you know why many will say to Yahshua “Lord, Lord” and he will tell them to depart? What did he say they would say? “Have we not prophesied…” etc all in his “name” they say. Why does he say that he does not know them? Not because they sinned, but because they WORSHIPPED THE WRONG PERSON! “Jesus Christ” is a pagan god.

Hmmm, what should I say?

 

[Cathoholic]

Dear Crono_vivi,

Your friend mentioned:
“The concept of the trinity, taken from egyptians mythology and others . . .”

His thought process sounds the same as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists and Unitarians in regards to Jesus’ Divinity. Is his Messiah or “Moshiach”
Truly God and truly man? Doubtful.

Here is one way to approach this issue and doesn’t involve Scriptural interpretation (which is good because they always seem to have a different interpretation for a given verse as you are seeing). The ancient Church Fathers used something like this against the Arians and I try to bring it up when the “Witnesses” show up at the door.

I ask if they’re God (the Father) is all perfect, perfectly just, perfectly merciful, all knowing, and infinite. I stress the infinity part of it. They invariably say “Yes.”

Then point out that: even a little sin against a little god (I use this for perspective) is a “little sin”. A little sin against a “big god” is a “big sin” because you sin against ALL of that “big” god.

But even a little sin (such as eating of the forbidden fruit), against an infinite God, yields an infinite sin because this God is infinite and the account that this infinite God requires (after all, He is perfectly just along with those other attributes) for friendship and fellowship with him cannot be paid from a finite source. So this “messiah” if he is merely a created being (St. Michael the Archangel in the case of the Witnesses) can only pay a finite account and we have no chance of salvation. Either that or a finite being CAN pay a full account (meaning your “god” is a finite being and not the true God).
OR the account is infinite, we could never pay a full account, and the Messiah MUST be true God and true man to satisfy God’s perfect justice and perfect mercy thus providing a way for fellowship with God again!

This may help undo his foundational errors after he’s had a few years to ponder it (and you water it with much prayer).

Hope this helps.

 

[Church_Militant]

crono_vivi:

I asked him what religion he was and he said that he was a Messianic Jew. He is also 17 years old.

I will definately look over those sites though.

He knows beans about what he’s talking about and I’d say from his tone that it’s time to break off any religious discussions with him because it’s a no win situation.

Since he’s the one denying all this stuff, all you have to do is say “prove it”, he can’t and if he tries, he’ll either expose biased a-C sources that you can refute fairly easily or he’ll see that he’s been fed bunk and reconsider his religion.

Either way, you are in for an unpleasant experience and if this is a “friend”, I’d be concerned about what your enemies are like
Pax tecum,