Help, I'm thinking about leaving the Church

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Erethorn said:
It seems to me that one who openly insults people by calling them liars and afterwards refuses to aknowledge their mistake or apologise is hardly qualified to talk about the “ugly desires” of another person’s ego.

By the way, the moral commandment that you keep dodging by not aknowledging your mistake is not mine, but that of your Church.

On another note, your “accept the Church or burn in hell” scare tactics really don’t work on me.

That being said, though you have been a tremendous help in my choice to distance myself from the Church and therefore from people like you, consider youself ignored from now on.
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My friend. If you listen to one thing here I ask that you listen to your heart ask Jesus into your heart and pray about the truth that the Catholic Church is. There is nothing we can say that will “force you make you scare you” into the Church. Faith is a gift given by God and it is a Gift we all can receive if we ask God. The fear of hell never works on anyone. The reality is that hell is real and satan is real no doubt. However being scared into believing is a farce. God is the one that could and sometimes will be the one that will scare you into beleiving. But it is your free will to believe the Holy Catholic Church the Papacy (which I truly lovingly thank Jesus for and the reason why I believe) Scare tactics don’t work on most of us. You are not alone in that regard. You posted a thought a question and most if not all of us on this thread wants to see you chose truth and that is the Catholic Church however understand that it is YOU and God that will work together and stay in her loving arms. I hope you don’t reject her because of a few people that want the best for you. Just pray to our Lord and ask him to show you why the Catholic Church is the true church. Look you are smart as I can tell cause you are questioning and that is good!! you are using your free will to question and that is again good. Now it is time to listen to God for the answer. Don’t quit over something so small as a negative response which was not meant in that capacity but rather helpful advice.
No matter what I say and or anyone else says, It is God you need to listen to and reasoning and proofs that the Catholic Church is true. God Bless and don’t give in to temptation to leave the Church. Scoob.
 
Erethorn said:
Perhaps you mean, the word of the Church.

The word of God is this: “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these".
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I’m sorry, but it seems like you have already made up your mind. You took documents from I’m guessing the Council of Trent which is a very complex Council, interpreted them by yourself, and are now pointing the finger at the Church for preaching a ‘mean’ God. Many of us have come onto this thread to try and correct your skewed interpretation of the Church documents, but again, it seems like you’ve already made up your decision. Those documents are very, very complex and take a great deal of study to fully understand.
For example: It might say “No one outside the Catholic Church shall have salvation”, but when it refers to the ‘Catholic Church’, it is most likely referring to the body of baptized Christians, because any Christian who is baptised in the Trinitarian Formula becomes a member of the Catholic Church, wether they know it or not.

My advice to you is to stick to the basics of what the Church teaches, without harshly critisizing it as soon as you come across something that you dislike, because you probably only dislike it because of your corrupted interpretation in the first place. Ask a priest for guidance in this matter.
 
Erethorn said:
Sorry, it’s not Vatican I, it’s the Council**** of Florence:

(N)o one remaining outside the Catholic Church, not just pagans, but also Jews or heretics or schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but they will go to the “everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life they are joined to the Church… And no one can be saved, no matter how much alms he has given, even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ, unless he remains in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church" - from the papal bull Cantate Domino
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Your problem concerning infallibility is moot, in relation to this document because this papal bull at the council of Florence was not infallible, and not a dogmatic definition!! Authorities in the church can spout all kinds of things and CAN contradict each other and have opposing opinions. Heck, I was just reading about a pope who denied the Beatific Vision for a while. You need to research the meaning of infallibility. It is merely a protection against error and can only be declared under very specific restrictions.
 
This has probably also already been said, but don’t judge people, OP: You don’t know who will go to hell, and even if “all signs point to yes” (person persists in grave sin, etc) we don’t know the depths of the mercy of God or what can happen at one’s moment of death (perhaps he meets Jesus and repents, etc).
 
“Help, I’m thinking about leaving the Church” is a misleading title for your thread. It seems like you’ve already made up your mind and don’t want any help.
 
Erethorn said:
Well, to be honest, that makes it even worse.
  1. JW’s go something like this:
    “Yes, we said something 50 years ago, and we say something tottaly different today; but it’s ok, we were wrong 50 years ago, but we are right now, because of new light that has come to us”.
  2. And to me, it seems like the Catholic Church goes something like this:
    “Ye, we said something 400 years ago, and we say something else today, it’s in reality the same thing; although it seems that it’s logicaly contradictory, it’s not, because we are inffailible, and whatever we say is true and we are never wrong.”
    Anyway, where I stand now, I still believe in Christ, saints, Eucharist, Holy Virgin Mary, and even the Papacy, but I no longer believe that the Catholic Church is inffailible.
    I can’t receive the Eucharist (because a catholic priest would be obligated to deny me the Eucharist once he knows I am no longer in agreement with all that the Church teaches, and withholding that from him would be wrong), but I can still pray.
    More or less, I am a Catholic without a Church.
    Am I a “cafeteria catholic” ?
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So you say your leaving the catholic church, so what?
You never answer any of my questions brother could you answer these.

tell me this is the catholic church infalible in all it says…NO it is’nt and it never ever said it was. Do you know when it says it is infalible, there is only one place, you havent mentioned it yet i don’t think.

Apart from that,
When the Catholic church tells us that it is right to help each other, if you have two shirts then give one to the poor, if you see a person on the side of the road sick, hurt or other, then help that person, feed the poor, visit the sick in hospital. Visit those imprisoned…that then is christian.

DO YOU DO ANY OF THESE…?
Brother your words feed a fight made of straw and wind if you do not.
Seek the kingdome of God not …not self.

If you do do the good things God bless you, if you don’t then it would do you good to look at your reasons for change for MANY in the Catholic church DO do these things.
Jesus tells us that “he who is not with me is against me” in any christian church, are you with Jesus (I will not judge but only question based on your argument).

Regardless
Godbless you brother

littleone.
 
Please don’t leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is where you will find the Eucharist which is Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God. Also, if you are having doubts, please post a thread in the apologetics forum to help with addressing these doubts. I will pray for you.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Remember oh most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence I fly unto thee oh Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. Oh Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen.

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou oh prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.
 
In looking at your previous posts I see that the issue of your dad being in mortal sin has been eating at you for quite sometime. Have you talked to your dad about this matter? Not to try to convince him to change, but just to discuss his actions and get his perspective on it. I am praying for you. Bottom line this is a trust issue. Do you believe God continually offering us grace? That his mercy is as deep as the ocean? Or do you think that he is miserly with His grace and mercy, doling it out a penny at a time? God is generous and not begrudging.

I’m new at this whole Catholic thing, so I may be giving you a Protestant view of mortal sin, but full knowledge and full intention to me mean that you essential must flagrantly reject God. You want no part of his grace, and the action of the mortal sin is simply an outward expression of the heart’s condition.

I am praying for you.

Eternal God, in whom mercy is endless and the treasury of compassion — inexhaustible, look kindly upon us and increase Your mercy in us, that in difficult moments we might not despair nor become despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to Your holy will, which is Love and Mercy itself.
 
What I would suggest is that you don’t look at the church itself as infallible. What you need to do is look at the infallibility of the Bible. Priests and the pope are as human as the rest of us and subject to temptation and sin. What God has provided us, is sovereign grace through his son. Protestant ministers are just as subject to temptations and sin as well. Scripture itself can not sin and each word of it is God breathed and inspired. The Bible is perfect, the church is not. If there is a church that claims to be infallible; it is not a real church. A key is understanding we are all sinners, and have fallen short of God’s glory; but in God’s sovereign grace, we can be forgiven.
 
Regarding your first question:
The Vatican declares a lot of things, but mainstream Catholics don’t always believe them 100%. Just because they declare that non-Catholics are doomed, a lot of Catholics don’t always believe that.

Regarding your second question:
Your friend can always just go to confession. The Catholic Church gives a way out.

I hope you choose to remain Catholic. Just because you have two topics of concern regarding the Church doesn’t mean you need to leave. Many Catholics are at odds with certain doctrine. You should join the social group here on CAF called Catholicism for the Rest of Us. It’s more liberal.
 
Tyleben said:
What I would suggest is that you don’t look at the church itself as infallible. What you need to do is look at the infallibility of the Bible. Priests and the pope are as human as the rest of us and subject to temptation and sin. What God has provided us, is sovereign grace through his son. Protestant ministers are just as subject to temptations and sin as well. Scripture itself can not sin and each word of it is God breathed and inspired. The Bible is perfect, the church is not. If there is a church that claims to be infallible; it is not a real church. A key is understanding we are all sinners, and have fallen short of God’s glory; but in God’s sovereign grace, we can be forgiven.
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How can the Bible be infallible, if the Church is not? Since the Church comes from God, and the Bible comes from the Church. 🤷

God gave us the Church; not the Bible. It is the Bishops and Apostles of the Early Church who wrote the New Testament, and it was Pope Innocent I who gave us the canon of the New Testament, to tell us which books are suitable to be read out at Mass.
 
The pope is human, being human he is subject to sin, therefore not infallible. The Bible comes from God. Contrary to popular belief, the Pope is not a descendent of the original 12 or an apostle in his own right. to qualify as an apostle, there is criteria not met by the Pope.
  1. having been with Jesus (presumably this refers to being involved in hearing His teachings day in and day out) for the three years that He ministered and taught on Earth, 2) being an eyewitness that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and was still alive, and, 3) that the twelfth man should ALREADY have been chosen by Jesus as an apostle (see Acts 1:24, Greek tense indicates a choosing that has already occurred in the past).
 
Tyleben said:
The pope is human, being human he is subject to sin, therefore not infallible.
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The two things have nothing in common. The Pope can be a sinner, and can be infallible at the same time. “Infallible” means, when God is speaking through him, what he says is true, and can be known to be true.
The Bible comes from God.
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Everything that exists “comes from God” by that definition. Surely you don’t think that the Bible just fell fully-formed out of the sky, or something. 🤷

Human beings (Bishops of the Catholic Church) wrote the books of the New Testament (67 AD to 95 AD), and in a later generation (390 AD to 405 AD), discerned which, out of hundreds of Gospels, Epistles, and other historical documents written by those same early Bishops, were the 27 books that comprise our New Testament - all based upon the oral tradition of the Catholic Church, being as there was, as yet, no Bible for them to consult, yet. (I Timothy 3:15)
Contrary to popular belief, the Pope is not a descendent of the original 12 …
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Yes, he is.

No one has ever claimed that he is actually an Apostle of Jesus Christ - nobody thinks he is that old. 😉

But yes, he is certainly the true inheritor of their authority and their gifts, by means of election and the laying on of hands. (I Timothy 4:14) 🙂 👍
 
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