Help in Baptism discussion with Evangelical

[Rae]

Can someone assist me in my discussion regarding Baptism, with my brother-in-law. I’ve responded to much of the e-mail, already…but to some of the below excerpts, I am getting exhausted, and need some plain-english responses that explain the Catholic view and interpretation…

Thanks, in advance for any help!

They can see and read religion but they have it in their head, it must be in the heart. Look at this verse 2 Cor 3:7
2 Cor 3:3-18

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excellent.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(KJV)
look at the verse it is talking about those of the faith who believed because they were born into the Jews, of Moses, of Abraham, they would be saved just by being born into Abrahams family,into moses family the levites, But the Word of God is telling them that they must be brought in through the power of Christ.

 

[Rae]

THIS IS THE SECOND PART…IT WOULDN’T ALL FIT WITHIN THE ORIGINAL POST. Thanks, again, for any responses. The volume is just too much for me to handle alone. Any help would be appreciated.

Their is a veil, Paul said when Ananias prayed for him that “Scales” fell off his eyes and he could see. What did he see? He saw Christ. the scales fell off the great apostles eyes.

he was religious, he knew the word, he was as zealous and evangelistic as you. He was killing believers of the faith who were accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and then being baptised.
he was killing the whole family and he justified it because he thought he was serving God. Eliminating people of the “Way”.
then on the road to Damascus, Acts chapter 9:3 he was thrown to the ground and he had a vision of Christ. God sent the above mentioned man to pray for him the blindness fell off him like scales covering his eyes. he was rligious, zealous but wrong.

What did he do. Read the verses he accepted Christ as his savior, got baptised after repenting and beliefing and then started to preach. he was a Jew by birth, why would he need to accept and then be baptised?In his day that was absurd, he was from Abraham and Moses the whole ball of wax.

I ask you again out of love and care. Read the verses, why are they their if they are to be ignored? Why write them? John 3:3; Roman 10:9-10; Acts 2-12; and tons more, I would be happy to teach you the meaing of each of these verses. they are lovely, Read Jeremiah 31:
Jer 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
(KJV)
Jer 24:7
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
(KJV)

God wants the heart. To get the heart it is done through confession Romans 10:9-10.

You can not become a believer when you are a baby, you can be born in a christian family but you can’t be a believer.

he isn’t dead I can assure you and I can assure you that he can answer(Jeremiah 33:3 O.T.;& Matt 7:7) you."

 

[pforrester]

Dear Rae, I am a convert to the Catholic Church from zealous protestantism. I might be able to help but it is not clear what exact question you need answered.
Pam

 

[Rae]

pforrester:

Dear Rae, I am a convert to the Catholic Church from zealous protestantism. I might be able to help but it is not clear what exact question you need answered.
Pam

Hi Pam!!!

I’m glad to have an offer of help. I’ve been formulating a response
to my brother-in-law, who is an Evangelical minister with a very
anti-Catholic disposition. We’re in the midst of a discussion on Baptism. He, of course, opposes the idea that Baptism is anything but symbolic, and is insistent upon infant baptism as a no-no. Well, I have some absolutely excellent and beautiful apologetic materials at my disposal, and am happy with how its turning out.

However, I am just so overwhelmed with the amount of information he threw at me…and the scriptures below, which I’m not even sure warrant some sort of response in their opposition to Baptism. He obviously believes in the ‘faith alone’ doctrine.

I’m just not sure how to respond to all the ‘veil’ and ‘scales over the eyes’, and talk of Saint Paul…and the ‘on the heart’ stuff.
Should I just ignore it, or is there some important relevance to what he’s trying to relay here that I should respond?

What do you think these various passages mean to him in the context of Baptism?

There was a lot that he had in his e-mail. This is just the left-over portion of which I was not sure of. I’m just not getting, in these scriptures, what he’s exactly trying to say to say to me in regards to Baptism.

Do you?

I appreciate a convert’s position…since you may well understand what it is he’s trying to express here to me. It would be helpful to have your advice! I apologize if it doesn’t seem to flow, as it was bits and pieces of the e-mail, and not exactly in the right order.

I hope that I’ve been clear enough that you will be able to offer some of your knowledge.

And congratulations on your conversion to the Catholic Church! I just love the faith of converts! It’s a beautiful thing! Thanks for offering your help!!! That’s kind of you. Any help you may provide would be appreciated.

Eyes on Him,
Rae

 

[Dan-Man916]

Here are several verses of Baptism.

Note that 1 single verse does not constitute a biblical theology.
We must take the bible as a whole to understand what the bible teaches. the Catholic Church teaches that baptism is all of these:

Baptism

---

John 3:5 The necessity of baptism and the Holy Spirit for salvation.

Rom 6:3-8 Baptized into Christ’s death

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized is saved.

Gal 3:26,27 We are sons of God through faith and baptism.

1 Pet 3:21 baptism now saves you.

Ti 3:5 saved us through the washing of rebirth

1 Cor 6:11 Baptism Justifies and Sanctifies

**Acts 2:38; 22:16 **Baptism forgives sins

Eph 5:26 Makes us holy by washing of water

Heb 10:22 - heart sprinkled, bodies washed in pure water
** 1Cor 15:21-22 - in Adam all die, in Christ all made alive
Mk 10:14 - let children come; to such belongs the kingdom
Lk 18:15 - people were bringing even infants to him…
Col 2:11-12 - baptism has replaced circumcision
** Acts 16:15 - she was baptized, with all her household
Acts 16:33 - he and all his family were baptized at once
1Cor 1:16 - I baptized the household of Stephanas

 

[pforrester]

I’m just not sure how to respond to all the ‘veil’ and ‘scales over the eyes’, and talk of Saint Paul…and the ‘on the heart’ stuff.
Should I just ignore it, or is there some important relevance to what he’s trying to relay here that I should respond?

What do you think these various passages mean to him in the context of Baptism?

I have no idea these are very obsure I would just let them slide.

There was a lot that he had in his e-mail. This is just the left-over portion of which I was not sure of. I’m just not getting, in these scriptures, what he’s exactly trying to say to say to me in regards to Baptism.

Do you? No

I appreciate a convert’s position…since you may well understand what it is he’s trying to express here to me. It would be helpful to have your advice! I apologize if it doesn’t seem to flow, as it was bits and pieces of the e-mail, and not exactly in the right order.

Dear Rae,
If you feel that you have done a pretty good job of explaining the Catholic view of Baptism then I wouldn’t worry about these verses. I never heard of them in this context before and I was a fundamentalist/evangelical Protestant. Extremly sola scriptura. Perhaps you have done such a good job that he is grasping at straws. Anyway, I don’t get how they support his position. The best thing, the fundamental difference is to try to get him to realize scripture MUST be interpreted. The Bible DOES NOT interpret itself. If it did there wouldn’t be 40,000 diff denominations. Try to get him to wonder WHO has the infallible interpretation…himself? his pastor? Billy Graham? John McArthur? Chuck Smith? who?

 

[Rae]

Pam and Dan-Man…

Thanks for your information and advice. I will let you know what happened. Perhaps I’ll send you both a private message. Paul (my brother-in-law) is going on a two-week vacation. He gave me ‘homework’ to do in his absence (I’m to read the Bible) and he actually gave me a prayer (in his words, using his own name within it) to say. He believes that I am SO close to the truth. Little does he know, I already found it!

I think he means well, but he sure can make me angry at times with some of his comments. He simply refuses to admit that I’m a Christian. His biggest hang-up, of late, is the Creed I forwarded him. His second biggest hang-up is the early Church Fathers. He always refers to ‘the flesh’ and ‘men’. It’s getting rather redundant. He never really answers any of my questions…nor refutes anything I’ve said…so it seems like we end up at square one all the time. It’s really frustrating. I’d rather argue my comments, than have them utterly ignored, only to have the same things recited to me over and over again. Yeesh! But I’ll try to be as kind as I can, and not stoop to sarcasm (even though its tempting and getting harder to avoid). We’ve had other disputes in the past (including some I’ve had with his wife, Karen about Mary). This latest, of course, is about Baptism (including infant Baptism).
He seems to avoid many comments about the Eucharist, interestingly.

Anyhow, I will probably be sending my latest e-mail out to him at the end of the month. I’ll let you know if he has a response.

Ya know, I really would be honestly, and sincerely, SO happy if he were to return to the faith of his childhood. I would be very joyful for him…but I think it is ever so unlikely. I continue to pray for him. But, atleast he is more faithful to God than many in his own family, and tries to live the Gospel. I just wish he wasn’t so very hostile toward Catholicism (especially at family gatherings), and would atleast admit that we are Christians (even if his own family members are admittedly very secular, and have left the Church for other denominations as well). He definitely seems to care about God a lot more than they seem to (I hope I’m not sounding judgemental). I don’t mean to be. I KNOW I’m certainly not perfect. I’m striving to be a better Christian. And apologetics has really helped my faith. Catholicism just makes SO MUCH sense to me!!! I’m very proud to be a Catholic. I just wish others could see what I (and you) see!

In the meantime, I’ll ask for your prayers. I’m going to be delivering a baby girl on August 31st, during a scheduled c-section. Please pray that the baby be healthy and normal and that we will both be safe during and after the surgery.

Thanks again for your responses.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Rae

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

This is a way to really get them. Assuming you have faith in Christ (I hope you do), ask them, if they believe that salvation by faith alone is sufficient. They’ll most likely say yes. You have faith in Jesus Christ, yet you put works with your faith. They’ll say you don’t need to do that, and go to scripture for that, though, notice in that scripture, it doesn’t say you CAN’T do works. It just says they won’t save you. So, by their beliefs, you’re saved, yet not saved. If it’s about infant baptism, then you just ask them if they believe the Bible alone is sufficient and if they look to NOTHING BUT the Bible. Then ask them where they believe someone like, an infant, or a mentally disable person, that never had faith in Christ, and can’t have faith in Christ would go if they died. They would probably tell you they would go to either, heaven, or in some cases, they just might say they will go to some sort of “limbo”, but they will probably never say hell, unless they were really that inconsiderate. Ask them where they would find that instance in the Bible. They’ll probably either falter by that time, or they’ll say that they’ll be back with an answer the next time you see them, or they might frantically, look for an answer right then in their Bible. They’re not going to find an answer that protects the destination of an infant and their belief in salvation by faith alone. If they believe they will go to heaven, note that they are right, but let them know, that that is a teaching of the Catholic church, and is a part of our long-standing Sacred Tradition.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

pforrester:

I’m just not sure how to respond to all the ‘veil’ and ‘scales over the eyes’, and talk of Saint Paul…and the ‘on the heart’ stuff.
Should I just ignore it, or is there some important relevance to what he’s trying to relay here that I should respond?

What do you think these various passages mean to him in the context of Baptism?

I have no idea these are very obsure I would just let them slide.

There was a lot that he had in his e-mail. This is just the left-over portion of which I was not sure of. I’m just not getting, in these scriptures, what he’s exactly trying to say to say to me in regards to Baptism.

Do you? No

I appreciate a convert’s position…since you may well understand what it is he’s trying to express here to me. It would be helpful to have your advice! I apologize if it doesn’t seem to flow, as it was bits and pieces of the e-mail, and not exactly in the right order.

Dear Rae,
If you feel that you have done a pretty good job of explaining the Catholic view of Baptism then I wouldn’t worry about these verses. I never heard of them in this context before and I was a fundamentalist/evangelical Protestant. Extremly sola scriptura. Perhaps you have done such a good job that he is grasping at straws. Anyway, I don’t get how they support his position. The best thing, the fundamental difference is to try to get him to realize scripture MUST be interpreted. The Bible DOES NOT interpret itself. If it did there wouldn’t be 40,000 diff denominations. Try to get him to wonder WHO has the infallible interpretation…himself? his pastor? Billy Graham? John McArthur? Chuck Smith? who?

His full intention was to use most of these as a smoke screen. So that you spend 90% of your time deciphering intead of responding. As to St. Paul nowhere does it say as he said that St. Paul "got baptised after repenting and beliefing " It says that Paul arose after the scales fell off after he was prayed over and was Baptized. This would be equivelent to our Rite of exorcism prior to Baptism.

John 3:3 Says that Baptism (being born of water and the Spirit) is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.