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Boomer_Sooner
Guest
Thanks for the help so far guys!! Awesome! But does anyone know anything else about this “Gregory the Great/John the Faster” passage?? Is that even real? What should I say about that? 
- Status
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Deus_Vult
Guest
The real problem protestants have is they do not understand the role of our Pope…the documentation provided was merely taken out of context. The leader or head of Gods Church refers to the Pope being the Apostlolic successor to Peter not God. We all as Cathlolics understand this they do not. I think a place to start with this guy is to first help him understand the role of our Pope in your own words. What he is really trying to get at is that we do not have God as the head of our Church and he and or 35,000 other Protestant churches somehow do that is the ones he agrees with. Of course the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are the head of the Church all the bishops of Rome have ever claimed is Apostolic Succession not to be or to replace God.
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sparkle
Guest
Deus Vult:
In the little I have learned in debating or applying apologetics so far, is that, if, after you explain, they still choose to NOT CARE TO UNDERSTAND, drop it!!! So many times I have bothered to explain something to one Evangelical relative, and always he’ll come back with some ignorant statement, getting it all wrong. Like he wasn’t even listening! The thing is, HE DOESN’T WANT TO LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND. This was a big lesson for me. Casting pearls before swine verse++ (Duh how many times do I need to bang my head against a brick wall to get this?)…
Thank you for helping me understand this even better Deus Vult and Alanfrom Witchita.
This is so true. Nor do they care to! BIG DIFFERENCE HERE I have learned!!! And you know sometimes, we can explain the role of the Pope clearly, simply and succinctly, and they will come back and say “We Catholics can worship the Pope if we want to”…but they, one in the 35,000 Prot denominations, whatever one it is, choose to worship God.
In the little I have learned in debating or applying apologetics so far, is that, if, after you explain, they still choose to NOT CARE TO UNDERSTAND, drop it!!! So many times I have bothered to explain something to one Evangelical relative, and always he’ll come back with some ignorant statement, getting it all wrong. Like he wasn’t even listening! The thing is, HE DOESN’T WANT TO LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND. This was a big lesson for me. Casting pearls before swine verse++ (Duh how many times do I need to bang my head against a brick wall to get this?)…
Thank you for helping me understand this even better Deus Vult and Alanfrom Witchita.
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sparkle
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Thanks Scott! It has taken me a while to see this! Why would someone be out looking for a fight anyway? Boredom?
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Scott got part of it, but I was also thinking of Jesus when He said nothing against the charges brought before him. I’m thinking why He might have done that, and whether if we remain silent and innocent lamb-ish in the face of such attacks that somehow ties us to Christ’s passion.
It’s hard to say because I usually make up stuff as I go. It’s not really apologetics, in that I really don’t have a sufficient background or do enough research to do it properly. Usually parables and other NT snippets jump into my mind randomly when I hear of people talking, because I see parallels in the feelings and attitudes of the people involved.
I talk to people, find out some things, usually end up steering the conversation around to religion and/or philosophy, and find out what they believe. The more I listen before telling them my own ideas the more they will trust me.
I’d say that’s a good guideline, in terms of not wasting your time. Sometimes it can be entertaining or interesting to keep bickering about it, so I wouldn’t rule it out entirely.
I don’t know whether my personal formulas would work for anybody else in particular; they don’t always work for me. God knows I’ve turned a few people off here and there with my style, and sometimes I’ve cared more than others.
What I really think is that I have worked very hard to find the inner peace and zeal for life I now enjoy, and I try to use that as a selling point for God. I draw out the other person’s views and affirm them or at least say, “hmmm. That’s an interesting viewpoint; I’ve never really seen it that way” when I really want to say “that is really odd. Does your doctor know you are off your medications?”Alan
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Nan_S
Guest
A few years ago my after-school sitter, who happened to be Church of Christ, took my properly Catholic-school educated children to their vacation-bible-school/revival.
I warned her that it was not a good idea - for her sake. And I told her that my kids would be just fine at home by themselves for the hour or so before I got there. But she insisted on taking them anyway.
Well… it wasn’t long before my kids started hearing the anti-Catholic drivel coming from the pastor. So, they marched right up and started ARGUING with the pastor, denouncing his “teachings” right in front of everyone!!!
I did warn her.
Thank GOD for putting such good teachers in our Catholic schools. :getholy:
I warned her that it was not a good idea - for her sake. And I told her that my kids would be just fine at home by themselves for the hour or so before I got there. But she insisted on taking them anyway.
Well… it wasn’t long before my kids started hearing the anti-Catholic drivel coming from the pastor. So, they marched right up and started ARGUING with the pastor, denouncing his “teachings” right in front of everyone!!!
I did warn her.
Thank GOD for putting such good teachers in our Catholic schools. :getholy:
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sires6
Guest
Boomer Sooner said:
Send him to Early Church Fathers and their writings:
voskrese.info/spl/index.html
Have him read Laux’s The History of the Church
Have him go to Catholic Answers at www.catholic.com
This guy is doing what I did, basing his information on what is present and now, post Lutheran Schism, but you need to point him back to the Early Church and what she believed then because that is where the rubber meets the Road. That is where I found faith.
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sires6
Guest
Oh, and do we even need to point out that this minister is saying that the Pope is a good man and yet is the anti-Christ? Does he even remember that part of the Bible where the Pharisees said Jesus was doing Satan’s work and Christ said, 14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. 15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. 18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. 19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. 21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. 24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first."
Sorry forgot to think on that before I hit submit on last post.
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Boomer Sooner said:
He is misled because he chooses to be. I would just tell him that the documentation he sent is not from teh Catholic Church, and does not display the true doctrine of the Church, and if he really wants to know more about it he needs to go straight to the horses mouth. The little tiny piece of article he circled about the pope being the head of the church is taken out of context. The pope is the earthly leader, the shepherd of the flock on Earth, the vicor of Christ, but he is human, just a holy man with an important job to do.
All you can do is send your official documentation in reply and tell him he will be in your prayers, and you hope he will come to understand that his claims are not what the Catholic church teaches. That he shouldnt’ need to villanize the Catholic Church to make his seem more credible.
Then seriously pray for the man and his congregation. Pray throughout the day "If today (insert name) hears your voice harden not his heart.
I sympathize with your story. In the end all you can do is correct him the best you can with official doctrine sources and pray, and leave it in the Lord’s hands.
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Ignatius
Guest
Here is a starting place:
The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus Christ started. The Church didn’t even exist until 1906 when it broke off of the Campbellites (see below for more details.)
Discerning the Church which Christ founded.
There are a few things we know about this true church:
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If your organization is “nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1960s
Pray for discernment and strength of Faith. Personally, I would avoid those people rather than arguing with them.
God bless and protect you in the Faith.
The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus Christ started. The Church didn’t even exist until 1906 when it broke off of the Campbellites (see below for more details.)
Discerning the Church which Christ founded.
There are a few things we know about this true church:
- It was built by Jesus Christ himself (Matt 16:18) which means that the “true church” must be about 2000 years old.
- Jesus only built ONE church (Matt 16:18).
- This church is the God-ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).
- This church is the fullness of Christ (Eph 1:22-23) which means that it is also the fullness of truth (John 14:6).
- The unity of this church will be proof to the world that Jesus was sent by God (John 17:21,23). In order for this unity to be seen by the world this church must be a visible church.
- The unity of this church must be a unity like that which exists between Jesus and the Father (John 17:21-23), therefore there can be no contradictions in doctrine. The Father and the Son do not disagree on doctrine therefore neither can the “true church”.
- This church can never change what it proclaims to be true. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb 13:8) therefore truth is the same yesterday, today and forever (John 14:6).
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.
If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If your organization is “nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1960s
Pray for discernment and strength of Faith. Personally, I would avoid those people rather than arguing with them.
God bless and protect you in the Faith.
C
Chris_W
Guest
The pastor made the following assertion: “Why would I consider the institution of the papacy to be evil? It presumes to regard a human being as the head of what they consider to be God’s church. He is regarded as the rightful ruler of the universe. For centuries, kings were crowned by popes…” And then sent you “evidence” to support the assertion.
In short I would ask him how “Universal Bishop” and “ruler of the universe” could be considered the same thing. They aren’t. At face value, Universal Bishop means; a clergyman with spiritual and administrative authority of worldwide scope or applicability. Whereas “Ruler of the Universe” means an entirely different thing (one who rules over everything that exists). Therefore, the Klingman work doesn’t even address the claims made by the pastor. We want to see the evidence he claims exists to prove that Catholics regard the Pope as the “rightful ruler of the universe”, as his letter claimed, and as he believes constitutes reason for belief the papacy is evil.
- The World Book Encyclopedia “evidence” is a quotation that the Pope “stands alone as the head of the entire Church”: First of all, you asked for documentation “from the Catholic Church”. This clearly isn’t. However, the statement made is correct. As a matter of fact, in the Klingman work, presented by this pastor presumably as trustworthy text, even says (on page 20) “All those who have read the Gospel know that the care of the whole Church was confided by our Lord himself to St. Peter, first of all the Apostles”. I would ask what his objection is to the statement. Of course the Pope is the head of the entire Church. What is incorrect about that statement and why does it make the papacy evil?
- The Klingman “evidence” describes a couple things. 1) The Pope admonishing John the Faster for his arrogance in taking on a title not given to him, that of “Universal Bishop of the Church”, and explained why the title was not appropriate. It was not appropriate because John the Faster was not the universal bishop of the church, and his attempt to become such (in title) caused disruption in the Church for numerous reasons, the not the least of which being the offense of other priests of the same stature as John. Okay, no problem there. 2) We are also told that Pope Boniface took the title of “universal bishop” and applied it to the Holy See.
In short I would ask him how “Universal Bishop” and “ruler of the universe” could be considered the same thing. They aren’t. At face value, Universal Bishop means; a clergyman with spiritual and administrative authority of worldwide scope or applicability. Whereas “Ruler of the Universe” means an entirely different thing (one who rules over everything that exists). Therefore, the Klingman work doesn’t even address the claims made by the pastor. We want to see the evidence he claims exists to prove that Catholics regard the Pope as the “rightful ruler of the universe”, as his letter claimed, and as he believes constitutes reason for belief the papacy is evil.
- The Hurlburt “evidence” asserts that the Pope claims to be ruler over nations and above kings. What does that have to do with papacy being evil? Are the rulers of nations necessarily evil? I think I could find examples of a few holy kings in the OT to refute that ridiculous idea. Whether or not a pope claimed authority over nations and kings has nothing whatever to do with the assertion that the papacy is evil.
- The American Catholic.org “evidence” shows a presumably catholic journalist calling the Pope the head of the church, to which I respond, “interesting, thanks for sharing”.
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Vonier
Guest
Quite a few posters have already touched on this, but I can’t resist adding my voice to the chorus. This Protestant isn’t interested in debating with you. He already knows what he thinks and does not care what you think. He’s right, you’re wrong. He’s saved, you’re not. He’s a Christian, you’re a Catholic. I know the mindset. Nothing you say to him, no brilliant slicing and dicing of his theological points is going to make the slightest difference to him. He wants to make you a Protestant. You will never, ever make him Catholic. Approach any and all discussion with this firmly in your mind.
Instead of trying to defend the Papacy, something you don’t have to do, ask him a question instead. Ask him why he wants to spend his Christian life on the back porch eating baloney sandwiches when he could come on into the house and join the feast?
Instead of trying to defend the Papacy, something you don’t have to do, ask him a question instead. Ask him why he wants to spend his Christian life on the back porch eating baloney sandwiches when he could come on into the house and join the feast?
C
Chris_W
Guest
I can’t say that I agree, Vonier. With that mindset we would avoid evangelization altogether. Yes, bear in mind, he is predisposed against Catholicism but there are a great many stories of avid anti-Catholics who convert. It may not happen as a result of this discussion, but every new truth plants a seed for the Holy Spirit to cultivate.
He made an assertion that the papacy is evil, and is attempting to defend his position. He seems up for the debate. My attitude would be to accept the challenge and make him defend his position. So far he has not provided evidence that supports his claims, and his claims do not necessarily lead to his conclusion. I suspect if he is pressed to actually defend the absurd assertion he has made, he will decline to continue in the discussion, but he will know deep down that he backed off for lack of confidence in his beliefs, which has unsettling effects over time.
Peace,
Chris W
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sparkle
Guest
Chris W:
You are both right!!! It is very hard to know though, as I have found in my own life, when they’re just bored, have nothing better to do, they don’t listen, don’t care to really absorb what you say, and you’re merely “casting pearls before swine”. I’m always asking myself how do I know if I’m doing this??? If they really weren’t interested, why do they go there? You must use your intuition I think, and use as few words as possible. Let some silence go by for them to THINK after you have pointed out something profound. Know what I mean?
Voinier and Chris:
You are both right!!! It is very hard to know though, as I have found in my own life, when they’re just bored, have nothing better to do, they don’t listen, don’t care to really absorb what you say, and you’re merely “casting pearls before swine”. I’m always asking myself how do I know if I’m doing this??? If they really weren’t interested, why do they go there? You must use your intuition I think, and use as few words as possible. Let some silence go by for them to THINK after you have pointed out something profound. Know what I mean?
C
Chris_W
Guest
Agreed. Thanks Sparkle 
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mayra_hart
Guest
even in the bibles there are quotes like
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).
Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself. Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles. they all support the papal authority.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).
Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself. Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles. they all support the papal authority.
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Vonier
Guest
Chris W:
My advice, succinctly put, is to be proud you’re Catholic and let Protestants in the witnessing mode know you enjoy a spiritual depth and joy that’s the product of 2000 years of Christian experience. You are already there, they’re witnessing to the choir. I dunno, draw a big map, put a cross in the center of it, look that Protestant in the eye and say “We are here, now where is it you want this discussion to go?”
If someone were seeking genuine debate I’d agree with you Chris. But you can’t evangelize someone who is already a Christian and thinks you are not one. Where do you begin? You’re on the defensive before you even have a chance to speak. Believe me, if you have to begin by “proving” you’re actually a Christian, you’re not going to get to evangelization anytime this century. Besides, this guy is already a believer isn’t he? Where’s the evangelization here? He’s evangelizing you because he thinks you ain’t one.
My advice, succinctly put, is to be proud you’re Catholic and let Protestants in the witnessing mode know you enjoy a spiritual depth and joy that’s the product of 2000 years of Christian experience. You are already there, they’re witnessing to the choir. I dunno, draw a big map, put a cross in the center of it, look that Protestant in the eye and say “We are here, now where is it you want this discussion to go?”
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sparkle
Guest
Boomer and Others:
Love this quote: Good to put in your future mails to this Prot. And you should direct him to Chesterton’s fabulous writings as well!!!
“The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong however, about what is right.” G.K. Chesterton
Love this quote: Good to put in your future mails to this Prot. And you should direct him to Chesterton’s fabulous writings as well!!!
“The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong however, about what is right.” G.K. Chesterton
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sires6
Guest
I think you all (most of you from what I see) are missing the point. Discussion wins souls. If you were “fighting” with this Protestant just to fight, then you are missing the whole idea. Sts. Paul and Peter and all the Saints I can think of all debated with the learned people of the time. Pagans, Arians (today’s JW and Mormons), Atheists and Agnostics- they opened debate and won them to the cross through apologetics.
Keep proving to this guy that the best way to Christ is the through the Chair of Peter and you will win him home. Point him to, oh what’s that web site, coming-home.com I think? Where Protestant ministers have come to the Catholic Church and found information and support. What about sending him such a wealth of information that he is inundated and must make an eventual decision. The True Church or accepting his heresy as it is.
Everytime I cam up against a argument I had no where to go but home to the Church. Give him no other option and love him home.
Keep proving to this guy that the best way to Christ is the through the Chair of Peter and you will win him home. Point him to, oh what’s that web site, coming-home.com I think? Where Protestant ministers have come to the Catholic Church and found information and support. What about sending him such a wealth of information that he is inundated and must make an eventual decision. The True Church or accepting his heresy as it is.
Everytime I cam up against a argument I had no where to go but home to the Church. Give him no other option and love him home.
S
sires6
Guest
- Status