Help -- is this place schismatic?

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guanophore said:
How did Latin Catholics come to this? How do papists who believe this way explain the words of Jesus:

Luke 22:24-27

24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 "But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. 27 "For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
NASB
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That is indeed a warning to Popes and other people with high offices in the Church not to let them go to their heads.

Jesus also says “you call me Master and teacher, and rightly, for so I am”. He was not, like Socrates, a philosopher who claimed to know nothing, nor was He one of those figures who believed in the abolition of all forms of government.
 
guanophore said:
How did Latin Catholics come to this? How do papists who believe this way explain the words of Jesus:

Luke 22:24-27

24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 "But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. 27 "For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.
NASB
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We came to it be reading the whole passage, not just an excerpt. First Our Lord gives a warning about abuse of power and then he says this:

28"You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; 29and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you 30that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
 
palmas85 said:
A Papist is a Catholic, a follower of the Pope. The term is generally used by anti-Catholics to show that Catholics owe their allegiance to a man, the Pope, rather than God. Most of the people who still use this term, popularized in the reformation and periodically revived during various anti Catholic times. believe all kinds of wierd off the wall stuff about Catholics, so I wouldn’t put a lot of concern into the posters remarks.

PS. The Pope doesn’t wear robes to cover his cloven hoofs, we don’t eat Jewish babies at Mass and we haven’t burned Protestant heretics at the stake for a long long time, even though many apparently believe we still do.

Just wanted to set the record straight.
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It’s a cool shirt. (lztees.com if you want one :P)
 
Gamera said:
“Traditional Catholic Latin Mass” is written on a sign at this place near our new house. But it isn’t listed on our diocesan website. Has anybody ever heard of it? And what the heck is “independent?” Is this some schismatic place? I fell like just showing up and asking them, but of course, if I ask them whether they’re “really” Catholic, they’ll say, “Of course!”

St. Michael Chapel & Shrine
507 Rt. 9W, Glenmont, NY 12077
Frs. Joseph Collins, (518) 462-2016
Independent, SU 10 am
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Gamera,

This is most likely a schismatic group. The only TLM indult parish in the Albany Diocese is St. Peter’s in Troy. Their website can be found here stpeters-troy.tripod.com/
 
This chapel is not in union with Rome I believe they are with the SSPX at least they were about 20 yrs ago. They are about 40 minutes from me. I thought they were out of business as I hadn’t read or heard anything about them until now on this forum. Stay away form them.
 
Fuerza said:
Gamera,

This is most likely a schismatic group. The only TLM indult parish in the Albany Diocese is St. Peter’s in Troy. Their website can be found here stpeters-troy.tripod.com/
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Probably the only way to know for sure is to find out which bishop this priest reports to. If that bishop is in communion with Rome, than it probably is ok to attend there, even if the local bishop is not too happy about it and/or makes threats.

If the priest is suspended or something like that by his own bishop, then things can get rather fuzzy. I know I’ll probably take some heat on this but it is best to attend the indult Mass or at least split your time between the two if you have a serious problem with the indult. I know many in Chicago who split the time between the various TLMs here. At least one won’t develop a total schismatic mentality that way. 🙂
 
BobP123 said:
Probably the only way to know for sure is to find out which bishop this priest reports to. If that bishop is in communion with Rome, than it probably is ok to attend there, even if the local bishop is not too happy about it and/or makes threats.

If the priest is suspended or something like that by his own bishop, then things can get rather fuzzy. I know I’ll probably take some heat on this but it is best to attend the indult Mass or at least split your time between the two if you have a serious problem with the indult. I know many in Chicago who split the time between the various TLMs here. At least one won’t develop a total schismatic mentality that way. 🙂
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All priests must have facilties granted to them to celebrate the Mass by the local bishop.

If the local bishop does not do so then the priest can not celebrate the Mass within that bishop’s diocese no matter what his bishop says.
 
A priest does not need to seek out separate faculties to celebrate Mass privately in every single diocese or territory he may happen to visit. When I traveled with a priest-friend through Europe and he was faithful to daily Mass in any of 30 different diocese and archdioceses, he most certainly did not have to obtain faculties from each ordinary for the right to celebrate his daily Mass.
 
AlexV said:
A priest does not need to seek out separate faculties to celebrate Mass privately in every single diocese or territory he may happen to visit. When I traveled with a priest-friend through Europe and he was faithful to daily Mass in any of 30 different diocese and archdioceses, he most certainly did not have to obtain faculties from each ordinary for the right to celebrate his daily Mass.
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Lets not confuse the issue at hand here.

This is not about a private Mass said by a traveling priest for himself and those traveling with him.

This is about an “independent” chapel with an advertised Mass.

A wholly different thing.

In this case, if the Chapel is not under the jurisdiction of the local bishop and the priest does not have facilities granted by that bishop then it is at best an illicit Mass. It could even be invalid as we have no way of knowing if this “priest” was validly ordained.

The best thing to do would be to avoid it.
 
Gamera said:
“Traditional Catholic Latin Mass” is written on a sign at this place near our new house. But it isn’t listed on our diocesan website. Has anybody ever heard of it? And what the heck is “independent?” Is this some schismatic place? I fell like just showing up and asking them, but of course, if I ask them whether they’re “really” Catholic, they’ll say, “Of course!”

St. Michael Chapel & Shrine
507 Rt. 9W, Glenmont, NY 12077
Frs. Joseph Collins, (518) 462-2016
Independent, SU 10 am
Click to expand...
They used to call us schismatics also.

Most Holy Family Monastery
261 Cross Keys Road
Berlin, NJ 08009

Ken
 
Just thought that I’d post an update. I have found out that the chapel mentioned in the OP is in fact schismatic. They are independent of the Albany dicoese and do not celebrate the TLM with the bishop’s permission. A group which I believe, but am not 100% sure, is affiliated with them was excommunicated in 1996 by the bishop of Lincoln. The excommunication was recently upheld by the Vatican. Although the article is not online as far as I know, I have it here right in front of me in my diocesan newspaper.

Among other groups whose excommunication in the Lincoln diocese was upheld, according to the article, are the SSPX, Freemasons, and Catholic for a Free choice.
 
Fuerza said:
Just thought that I’d post an update. I have found out that the chapel mentioned in the OP is in fact schismatic. They are independent of the Albany dicoese and do not celebrate the TLM with the bishop’s permission. A group which I believe, but am not 100% sure, is affiliated with them was excommunicated in 1996 by the bishop of Lincoln. The excommunication was recently upheld by the Vatican. Although the article is not online as far as I know, I have it here right in front of me in my diocesan newspaper.

Among other groups whose excommunication in the Lincoln diocese was upheld, according to the article, are the SSPX, Freemasons, and Catholic for a Free choice.
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It is good to hear of bishops who still believe in discipline.
 
An “independent” Mass center, or priest, is not necessarily sedevacantist. In either case, the classification of the Mass there is “valid but not licit” (assuming the rite was followed properly which it probably is).
 
Sedevacantist or not, the fact that it not in communion with the Catholic should be enough to make a Catholic want to steer clear.
 
Fuerza said:
Just thought that I’d post an update. I have found out that the chapel mentioned in the OP is in fact schismatic. They are independent of the Albany dicoese and do not celebrate the TLM with the bishop’s permission. A group which I believe, but am not 100% sure, is affiliated with them was excommunicated in 1996 by the bishop of Lincoln. The excommunication was recently upheld by the Vatican. Although the article is not online as far as I know, I have it here right in front of me in my diocesan newspaper.

Among other groups whose excommunication in the Lincoln diocese was upheld, according to the article, are the SSPX, Freemasons, and Catholic for a Free choice.
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Gazette of the Archdiocese of Salzburg" which follows in English translation from the ‘Verordnungsblatt der Erzdioezese Salzburg’ no. 5 (5 May 2006) page 85, under the heading '53. Priestly Fraternity of St Pius X : Information." Here the text…

According to an authoritative statement from the Pontifical Commission 'Ecclesia Dei, ’ the following points regarding the Priestly Fraternity of St Pius X are, from a juridical point of view, indisputable facts :

the four bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1988 (here follow the four names) are excommunicated. Priests ordained within the Fraternity are suspended for lack of a valid incardination.

Regarding the faithful who sympathise with the SSPX, we must insist that a) we are dealing with Catholic faithful who – provided they have performed no explicit actions – in no way wish to leave the Roman Catholic Church; b) attending Masses celebrated by priests of the SSPX is not in itself a delict and does not bring about excommunication; c) only those of the faithful who see the SSPX as the only true church, and who make this visible externally, incur the penalty of excommunication; d) it is consequently not at all appropriate to regard as non-Catholic the children baptised in the chapels of the SSPX, and to treat their marriages to another Catholic as mixed marriages; e) when baptism by a priest of the SSPX is attested in writing and the parents of the newly baptised do not see the SSPX as the only true church, then this attestation sufficews for registration of the baptism in the Liber Baptizatorum of the parish of baptism, under the running number 0. On the basis of this registration, a baptismal certificate can be issued.

Like I said on a previous thread…one can attend an SSPX Mass, but you cannot break from Rome.
 
Uxor said:
Like I said on a previous thread…one can attend an SSPX Mass, but you cannot break from Rome.
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I think the original poster was not interested in attending if it was associated in anyway with a schism. I may be wrong, but that’s how his first post sounded.
 
pnewton said:
I think the original poster was not interested in attending if it was associated in anyway with a schism. I may be wrong, but that’s how his first post sounded.
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Why does the Vatican consider their sacraments they performed valid? Think about that…
 
Uxor said:
Why does the Vatican consider their sacraments they performed valid? Think about that…
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Because their priests are validly ordained. Sacramental validity is not erased by schism.
 
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