Help me defend against the "orans" posture

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My problem with the laity using the orans posture is basically from my experience. For many of the people who I have observed use it, I have a reasonable – I think – suspicion that they do not regard the ministerial priesthood as something that should be exclusive. For example, I have seen women use the posture whom I know do not accept the Church’s reservation of Holy Orders for men alone. Culturally, the Latin Rite had reserved the orans posture for the priests and bishops. To engage in this posture, then, would seem to be a refusal to acknowledge their ministerial dignity. Those are just my thoughts. Certainly the Eastern Rites have a different cultural perspective. So their laity’s use of the posture could not be reasonably interpreted as a denial or refusal to acknowledge the exclusivity of Holy Orders.

Kevin
 
Our Bishop has specifically ‘okayed’ the orans posture in our diocese during the Our Father. He has also said he will not stop the’custom in some parishes to hold hands during the Our Father because it is not forbidden in the GIRM, as long as people focus their hearts on God and not on each other.
 
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Elzee:
Our Bishop has specifically ‘okayed’ the orans posture in our diocese during the Our Father. He has also said he will not stop the’custom in some parishes to hold hands during the Our Father because it is not forbidden in the GIRM, as long as people focus their hearts on God and not on each other.
do we see where this line of “thinking” has and is getting us???

I shudder to think what my boys could have done with that thinking when I told them simply to be home by midnight.

Since I did not forbid anything…:bigyikes:
 
ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Orans Posture (“Praying” Hands Extended)

The following explains the origin of the Orans position, in which the priest intercedes during the liturgy on behalf of all. In the last couple decades this posture of praying with hands extended and lifted upwards has become a popular prayer posture for many laity, especially in the Charismatic Renewal.
The Orans position (Latin for “praying”) or some variation of it, was common to almost all ancient religions as an outward sign of supplicating God (or if a pagan religion, the gods). Consider what we do when we plead with someone. We might put our arms out in front of us as if reaching for the person and say “I beg you, help me.” This seems to be a natural human gesture coming from deep within us - like kneeling to adore or to express sorrow. Now, turn that reach heavenwards and you have the Orans position.

The liturgical use of this position by the priest is spelled out in the rubrics (the laws governing how the Mass is said). It indicates his praying on BEHALF of us, acting as alter Christus as pastor of the flock, head of the body. It used to be minutely defined in the rubrics, which now say only, “extends his hands” or “with hands extended.” Priests understand what is meant (from observation and training), and although there is some variability between priests basically the same gesture is obtained from all of them by these words.

In the rubrics the Orans gesture is asked principally of the Main Celebrant, but on those occasions where either a priestly action is done (Eucharistic Prayer) or prayer in common (Our Father) all the concelebrants do it.

It is never done by the Deacon, who does not represent the People before God but assists him who does.

Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a** private gesture when used in the Mass ** and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church’s prayer. As the Holy See has recently pointed out, confusion has entered the Church about the hierarchical nature of her worship, and this gesture certainly contributes to that confusion when it conflicts with the ordered sign language of the Mass.

Lets take each case.

Our Father. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.

After Our Father. This liturgical disunity continues after the Our Father when some, though not all, who assumed the Orans position during the Our Father continue it through the balance of the prayers, until after “For thine is the kingdom etc.” The rubrics provide that priest-concelebrants lower their extended hands, so that the main celebrant alone continues praying with hands extended, since he represents all, including his brother priests. So, we have the very anomalous situation that no matter how many clergy are present only one of them is praying with hands extended, accompanied by numbers of the laity.

So, while we shouldn’t attribute bad will to those who honestly have felt that there was some virtue in doing this during the Mass, it is yet another case where good will can achieve the opposite of what it intends when not imbued with the truth, in this case the truth about the sacramental nature of the postures at Mass and their meaning.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
 
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MrS:
do we see where this line of “thinking” has and is getting us???

I shudder to think what my boys could have done with that thinking when I told them simply to be home by midnight.

Since I did not forbid anything…:bigyikes:
I agree. I’m no expert on how to interpret ‘omissions’ in the GIRM, but personally this remark from him disappointed me. I know many people in our parish do attribute our ‘unity’ at the Mass to hand-holding as opposed to the Eucharist. I give our Bishop credit for at least instructing the people who do this on the mindset they should have…but, unfortunately, since our priest rarely - if ever - passes on info from the Bishop to us - most people have no idea what his direction is.

Our Bishop is extremely orthodox as are his seminarians and the priests he has working directly with him. I’m in awe every time I attend Mass at our Cathedral by the reverence - especially towards the Blessed Sacrament. It brings tears to my eyes.

Unfortunately, there are still some priests who walk to a different drummer on some things…
 
I like the Orans posture, and I use it to pray. It is a very well documented ancient posture for prayer.

I think people who don’t like it are just intimidated by it, so they should just not pray that way if it bugs them, but they shouldn’t try to stop this ancent practice!

I can stilll remember the priests years ago making the congregations hold hands, even directing the people to reach across the aisles to hold hands. Almost everybody disliked it, and the only reason I can imagine that they did this was an attempt to get people to open up to their neighbors. Which if so, is an admirable motive for a really bad idea.

Most Roman Catholic parishes I am familiar with have lost the sense of community, they are big rooms full of strangers. That in itself is a very serious problem and it is one of the biggest reasons so many Catholics stop attending Mass. When people miss a Sunday no one notices or cares, no phone calls or emails from friends saying they were missed and hoping they were OK. They miss one Sunday, then another and another; but everyone is so focused on themselves, hoping that no one grabs their hand that they never even get to meet these people. It’s sad; really, really sad.

So, how about if we reintroduce the kiss of peace?

http://www.stnina.org/files/images//dec-orans.jpg
 
I weep over this.

At one time all eyes were on the Deacon or if no deacon was present the Lead Altar Server (called the MC) for what to do, when to kneel, when to sit, when to stand, etc…

It’s too bad this has gone out the window with the mentality of “no one can tell me how to pray, I’ll do it how I want to”

As far as the “Not prohibited in the GIRM” mentality, that is a very very slippery slope. The GIRM doesn’t prohibit, oh let’s say someone saying the Hail Mary out loud during Mass, it doesn’t prohibit jumping up and hollering a big protestand “AMEN”. If we use what’s not prohibited as guidelines, things will continue to go south.

In my opinion, what should be done is ONLY what is in the GIRM, and if it’s not in there consider it prohibited.

Deacon Ed, I respect you but I know there are rubrics for deacons, and you are the liason between the people and the priest. The people are to emulate your actions (they should) and therefore you must be sure you are well versed in all the rubrics that apply to your station which I am sure you are.

God Bless
 
Hesychios,

I like your thinking. Let us “lift high our holy hands” and “greet each other with a holy kiss.” These limpid and routine handshakes have got to go.

CDL
 
As someone who has been back to the Church only 2 years, after a 27 year absence, I can tell you that the first time I witnessed this “posture”, I thought I had stumbled into a Protestant Church. I really find it appalling. I did alot of reading about the origins of this practice (thank God for Catholic Answers) and it was Jimmy Aiken’s book Mass Confusion that explained it best. However, understanding it does not make it easier. The only Church in my city where this does not occur is the Cathedral - and that’s where you will find me.
 
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Hesychios:
I think people who don’t like it are just intimidated by it, so they should just not pray that way if it bugs them, but they shouldn’t try to stop this ancent practice!
Wow, I am not intimidated by it at all!
I think it destroys the unity of the congregation and takes away the role of the Priest but imtimidation, no way.
Most Roman Catholic parishes I am familiar with have lost the sense of community, they are big rooms full of strangers. That in itself is a very serious problem and it is one of the biggest reasons so many Catholics stop attending Mass. When people miss a Sunday no one notices or cares, no phone calls or emails from friends saying they were missed and hoping they were OK. They miss one Sunday, then another and another; but everyone is so focused on themselves, hoping that no one grabs their hand that they never even get to meet these people. It’s sad; really, really sad.
My parish is as “Old Tyme” Catholic as you get. We DO NOT hold hands nor pray in the Orans position during Holy Mass.
Yet, we are one of the finest communities in the area. Holy Mass is not the place to socialize anyway.

Maybe it’s the people themselves in these parishes and not the way one worships. Perhaps some social event AFTER mass is the key to the community.

http://www.stnina.org/files/images//dec-orans.jpg

How can you tell that she is praying?
That doesn’t look like the Orans Position to me. Note how her palms are facing us. People doing the Orans that I have seen, tuck their elbows to their waists and flip the palms up.
 
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blessedtoo:
As someone who has been back to the Church only 2 years, after a 27 year absence, I can tell you that the first time I witnessed this “posture”, I thought I had stumbled into a Protestant Church. I really find it appalling. I did alot of reading about the origins of this practice (thank God for Catholic Answers) and it was Jimmy Aiken’s book Mass Confusion that explained it best. However, understanding it does not make it easier. The only Church in my city where this does not occur is the Cathedral - and that’s where you will find me.
This is how I felt. I left the Church for almost 10 years, and when I came back I was greated by people in name tags, I found people talking (loudly) before and after Mass and everyone holding hands with each other up in the air during the Our Father. If it wouldn’t have been for the statue of Mary and the Holy Water, I would have thought I was in some protestant “almost Catholic” church.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):

The position of the Theotokos in the icon shown is, indeed, the orans position as used in the East. There are numerous variations of hand position – but the “raising up of [the] hands” is actually called for in vespers and in the Divine Liturgy. In fact, at the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) the priest invites us to “lift up our hearts to the Lord” and the normal responsive action of the people is to lift their hands in the position shown in the icon as if they were actually lifting up their hearts!

To All:

When the bishops make an authoritative statement then I will be certain to cite that and make their position clear. Until then, I do not put forth as Church teaching that which is not, in fact, Church teaching but, rather, personal opinion (no matter how logical it may seem).

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
To All:

When the bishops make an authoritative statement then I will be certain to cite that and make their position clear. Until then, I do not put forth as Church teaching that which is not, in fact, Church teaching but, rather, personal opinion (no matter how logical it may seem).

Deacon Ed
So, as a challenge to you and all deacons and priests on the board, why not ask your bishop to clarify so that you can give your people a definitive answer? :confused:
 
Deacon Ed:
The position of the Theotokos in the icon shown is, indeed, the orans position as used in the East. There are numerous variations of hand position – but the “raising up of [the] hands” is actually called for in vespers and in the Divine Liturgy. In fact, at the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) the priest invites us to “lift up our hearts to the Lord” and the normal responsive action of the people is to lift their hands in the position shown in the icon as if they were actually lifting up their hearts!

To All:

When the bishops make an authoritative statement then I will be certain to cite that and make their position clear. Until then, I do not put forth as Church teaching that which is not, in fact, Church teaching but, rather, personal opinion (no matter how logical it may seem).

Deacon Ed
That is the point Deacon, the people today do not do the Orans position. They do a watered down version.

Until the Latin church gives ANY direction to the laity to do the Orans, it is not allowed. That is not an opinion, it’s fact. The Vatican documents DO priests to do this prayer position.

Do you have a reference to where it directs the laity to do the same?
 
Deacon Ed:
In fact, at the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) the priest invites us to “lift up our hearts to the Lord” and the normal responsive action of the people is to lift their hands in the position shown in the icon as if they were actually lifting up their hearts!
Vatican reference to the hands, please.
 
I should think the holy kiss and the Gregorian Chant are more important than whether or not people raise their hands in prayer. But that’s just me.

Do any of you go to any Church that consistently uses the liturgy that is supposed to be standard for Roman Catholics? I.e., do any of you attend a Church that consistently uses the Gregorian Chant?

CDL
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Vatican reference to the hands, please.
Sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to the Eastern Catholic practice, not the Latin Rite practice. I had thought (obviously erroneously) that my reference to the East earlier in the post would have carried over.

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Deacon Ed
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
That is the point Deacon, the people today do not do the Orans position. They do a watered down version.

Until the Latin church gives ANY direction to the laity to do the Orans, it is not allowed. That is not an opinion, it’s fact. The Vatican documents DO priests to do this prayer position.

Do you have a reference to where it directs the laity to do the same?
No, and according to the way in which liturgical law is interpreted, there is no direction not to do it so to claim that it is “not allowed” is to assert what it not the case. It is, in fact, a personal opinion based upon an attempt to read liturgical law as if it were English Common Law (upon which most American law is based).

And, no, the orans position that I’ve seen people use (both in the East and the West) is very similar to that shown in the catecombs of Rome where people praying in the orans position are depicted on the walls. It is also the posture used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
No, and according to the way in which liturgical law is interpreted, there is no direction not to do it so to claim that it is “not allowed” is to assert what it not the case. It is, in fact, a personal opinion based upon an attempt to read liturgical law as if it were English Common Law (upon which most American law is based).
According to the way that the Cannon Law is based, if something is directed for the priest but is not directed as a posture for the laity, it is a priestly gesture. According to Vatican documents, the orans is directed to the priest but has never been directed to the laity in the liturgy. Therefore it is a priestly gesture and not allowed to be done by the laity. Without a that direction to the laity from the Vatican, it is not allowed for them, it’s priestly.
And, no, the orans position that I’ve seen people use (both in the East and the West) is very similar to that shown in the catecombs of Rome where people praying in the orans position are depicted on the walls. It is also the posture used in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Deacon Ed
There is no proof that the position shown in the Catacombs is even a Christian gesture as they have a very hard time distinguishing which are Jewish, Christian or Pagan. The depictions in the Catacombs are traced back to the depictions of a soul rising from the body.

See here…
pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/catacombs.html
 
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