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onenow1
Guest
Jazzman you hit the nail right on the heaed !
Let’s obey God’s command to baptize as stated in Matt. 28:19. There were no exceptons in this command.
Peace, OneNow1
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Let’s obey God’s command to baptize as stated in Matt. 28:19. There were no exceptons in this command.
Peace, OneNow1
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NonDenom
Guest
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NotWorthy
Guest
Good point. But being a Child of God isn’t a “career”. It’s initiation into the New Covenant. Catholics tend to hold Jesus to His word, so we are anxious to bring “our little ones to Him”, for we believe that “the kingdom of God is for such as them”. We understand that Baptism replaces Circumcision, so we searched the Scriptures to find the stipulation that claims that we must wait. It’s not there. It simply says, “it replaces circumcision”.
M
mercygate
Guest
I think one of the barriers for those who think baptism is for mature believers only is that they think belief requires full use of reason. About 2 years ago the lightbulb went on for me when I read the passage in Luke where John the Baptist “leapt for joy” in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, pregnant with the Lord Jesus, entered the house. That leap was certainly an act of faith – and John wasn’t even born! “Belief” comes on a wide scale of intellectual competence.
It is not at all unreasonable for infants and children to assume the faith of their parents, because that is the only level at which faith is possible for them.
Believers-only people think somehow that we who baptize infants believe that we exempt those infants from appropriating faith in Christ for themselves. Yet as we grow, we accept Christ daily – each day with better understanding – until we “attain to the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to themeasure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;.” (Eph 4:13)
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Mickey
Guest
But I’ll bet your eight day old talks to and understands the Lord. My baby will point to Jesus on the cross and say, “abbadoo dadoo aba mooddoo”.
I am certain that she talks to our Lord and Savior–and of course, God understands her perfectly!
Our infants communicate with the unseen Trinity. Don’t you doubt it for a second.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Maybe you should ask your eight day old baby which doctor he would like to go to and wait until he is old enough to decide for himself which doctor to go to.
What you say… Going to the doctor is to important to wait.
Well faith is more important then health isn’t it!
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NotWorthy
Guest
Bottom Line:
a) You can show in Scripture that whole households were baptized, that Jesus asked for the children (infants) to be brought to him, and that Baptism replaces Circumcision.
b) You can show that the Early Church always taught that infants could be baptized.
c) You can show the the first century church practiced infant baptism.
If that ain’t good enough for them, that’s their problem, not yours!!!
a) You can show in Scripture that whole households were baptized, that Jesus asked for the children (infants) to be brought to him, and that Baptism replaces Circumcision.
b) You can show that the Early Church always taught that infants could be baptized.
c) You can show the the first century church practiced infant baptism.
If that ain’t good enough for them, that’s their problem, not yours!!!
J
jazzman500
Guest
I think that the “age of reason before baptism” idea is illogical. First and formost, Catholics baptize infants because we beleive Jesus commanded us to baptize all. Secondly, we are morally obligated to tend to all of an infant’s needs even though the child has not reached the age of reason. Children cannot reason that they need diapers changed but they know that they are uncomfortable. They don’t understand why they have to eat, be bathed, kept safe from choking hazards, or why they need immunizations. Infants have hundreds of needs that they don’t understand but we fulfill them anyway out of love. Their comprehension of our care is not a prerequisite to their benefiting from it. Why then, do we believe that handing them over to God in the name of the The Trinity needs their understanding? Does God not accept this baptism? Didn’t Jesus command the apostles to allow the children to run to him when at first they objected? Where does this notion come from? Is it possible that some of our good protestant brothers are linking this perceived requirement of “adult only” baptism with their belief of having to be “born again”? Lets keep in mind that the majority of Christian beleif is held in common between Catholics and Protestants and that we can discuss our differences, but always with respect for eachother and never with pride.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Old Covenant
Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.
Connection to New Covenant
Col 2:11-12
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant.
Do Infants Need Baptism?
Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.
Jesus Extols Child-like Faith
Matthew 18:2-5
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. **So why would children be excluded from baptism? **
Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants
Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.
**Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism. **
(cont.)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
The Church Begins to Preach Baptism
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).
Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.
Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church’s practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
**Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies’ souls are affected by Adam’s sin and need baptism just like adult souls. **
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God’s Covenant kingdom.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
**Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic’s sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another’s faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents’ faith. **
***1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents. ***
Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent’s faith.
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).
Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.
Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.
Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word “household” comes from the Greek word “oikos” which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia’s faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents’ faith, not the children’s faith.
Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church’s practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).
Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.
**Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies’ souls are affected by Adam’s sin and need baptism just like adult souls. **
Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God’s Covenant kingdom.
Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the “saints” of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.
Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.
**Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic’s sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another’s faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents’ faith. **
***1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents. ***
Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent’s faith.
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MrS
Guest
But we are all accountable for Adam’s actions. Original Sin stained us all. Even the Blessed Mother acknowledged Her Lord and Savior. Only she is the “full of grace” who was saved prior to her conception, The rest of us need to be saved after conception.
Anyway, there is often a lack of awareness to the Jewish/Hebrew idioms found in Scripture. That would include the verse telling us that “those who do not work will not be fed” and similar verses like “repent and be baptized” = “…(those who can, must) repent and (then) be baptized…”
Hardly a statment of starving the infirmed or infants. Rather we understand it as “let those who (can work and )do not work, not be fed…”
Let those who can believe in Jesus, believe Him. It just gets harrier (?) because many say they accept the Lord as “personal Savior”, yet they deny infant baptism (that which replaces infant circumcision), and worse, they deny the Real Presence.
Defend the Real Presence, and all else follows from reason and faith.
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