Help me explain invincible ignorance to a non-Catholic

[MotherNoRest]

I have read the whole New Testament recently having as my focus only those verses which deal with salvation, or loss of salvation, what to do to be saved, what will get us thrown into Gehenna, etc.

I am studying and trying to make my case to a CHristian talkshow host who constantly says that anyone who has not died and accepted Jesus will go to hell.

As I’ve read the NT, and found some verses which support invincible ignorance, especially Romans 2, I know that he will bring up passages which say you must “believe” in Jesus.

I will posit that the only way to read these verses which speak of believing or not believing is to see them as meaning “understanding the need to believe and rejecting that understanding.” So that those who do not believe are those who understand the need to believe and turn from it, not those who innocently do not believe. So, when the jailer is told to believe in Jesus and confess with his mouth that he is Lord, he needs to give mental assent to this idea, assuming he understands the need to accept it (which I assume he does, since he’s already asked how to be saved!)

Is my line of thinking correct? Does anyone have helpful verses to point out or perspective on this? Would my understanding of the word “believe” in the NT be correct then?

 

[Tick_Dawk]

Well, see, from what I’ve noticed, everyone on this site seems to think that you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven, akin to pre-Vatican II thinking. So, I guess they all believe the same thing those Protestants do, only a little more exclusively.

However, if you want me to be honest, with my experiences with Protestants, you’ll never change their way of thinking, because they’re so attached to the words of the Bible, they’ll never listen to the words of an actual person.

 

[jmcrae]

First, why are you arguing with a talk-show host? Just change the channel. He’s not going to publicly change his mind on something like that, even if he is interiorly convinced of it.

Second, while it’s theoretically possible for a sinless person (that is, someone who has Original Sin but no personal sin) to be “saved” by invincible ignorance, under the condition that they would have been oriented to accepting the Gospel had it ever been presented to them, it’s not something you’d want to bet the farm on.

If the talk-show host’s goal is to get people to accept Jesus, I wouldn’t stand in his way, or give out an impression that people could choose against the Gospel while it is being presented to them, on the basis of invincible ignorance - the people listening to the show do not number among the invincibly ignorant - their choice is simple: Jesus, or Hell.

 

[jcoldc]

Well, see, from what I’ve noticed, everyone on this site seems to think that you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven, akin to pre-Vatican II thinking. So, I guess they all believe the same thing those Protestants do, only a little more exclusively.

However, if you want me to be honest, with my experiences with Protestants, you’ll never change their way of thinking, because they’re so attached to the words of the Bible, they’ll never listen to the words of an actual person.

No not everyone feels that way. Please don’t make sweeping statements saying “everyone” (or no one). The Church teaches invincible ignorance. It is one of the biggest ways I love Catholicism. We are not to judge others because we do not know the depth of God’s mercy. If you have children, you have a sense of the fraction of the love God has for all His children. (If you don’t you can still get the picture too.) With that love, He will judge indiviually. Most everyone who is religious is practicing what they believe is right. Whether your RCC and think the devil entered Protestantism or Protestant and think the devil entered RCC, the devout are doing their best to worship. I think God takes this into account.

If anyone (Catholic or not) is judging someone, then shame. And for Catholics, it goes against Catholic teaching.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, see, from what I’ve noticed, everyone on this site seems to think that you have to be Catholic to go to Heaven

Not sure who you’ve been talking to on this site…I recommend checking the Catechism (esp. #847, #848).

To the OP, here are some verses (there are others but these are a good start)

Romans 5:13 …sin is not counted where there is no law.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Ezekiel 45:20 (New International Version)
You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

Acts 3:17
"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Hebrews 9:7
But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

 

[MotherNoRest]

Thank you Marco Polo. Your response was helpful. I knew of some of the verses, but the others are helpful.

To the person who wonders why I am speaking to a talk show host: it is not just for his benefit but for his audience as well. There are not only Bible Protestant Christians listening. I have heard calls from non-believers who are asking (unwittingly) about invincible ignorance trying to understand what “our God” is about and this man tells them that if you do not proclaim Jesus and have your sins washed in his blood, you will go to hell. For someone questioning the heart and mind of the Triune God, being told this could be a deterrant to coming to faith. One may decide they are not interested in serving that kind of God. I fully realize you’re not safe in being invincibly ignorant. But it is not right to present God as someone Who sends each and every person to hell who has not asked for forgiveness through Jesus if that is not the truth about God.

Are we interested in truth or not?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi MotherNORest, do you honestly believe that Hitler is going to heaven through invincible ignorance? I can’t think of anyone who would be more ignorant of Jesus then he.

How would you explain why or why not Hitler will or will not go to heaven via invincible ignorance?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Not sure who you’ve been talking to on this site…I recommend checking the Catechism (esp. #847, #848).

To the OP, here are some verses (there are others but these are a good start)

Romans 5:13 …sin is not counted where there is no law.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Ezekiel 45:20 (New International Version)
You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

Acts 3:17
"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Hebrews 9:7
But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

Acts 17:30-31 (King James Version)

30And **the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: **

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[MotherNoRest]

To Daniel Marsh:

Hitler also happened to be an evildoer (although culpability is also judged exclusively by God, though it may be fairly safe to say that Hitler would be considered an evildoer by God). Evildoers do not make it to heaven whether you believe or not.

Additionally, there is no certainty that Hitler was invincibly ignorant. He may have been a willful hater of God. That is hate, not ignorance.

There are two conditions to make it to heaven if you are invincibly ignorant: True innocent ignorance + a life of love. (See Romans, Chapter 2 for a good explanation of this.)

 

[thistle]

Invincible ignorance means living a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings without knowing anything about Christ. I would say there are very few people on the planet who have not heard of Christ.

 

[MotherNoRest]

Thistle: You have stated the idea of invincible ignorance correctly, but having heard of Christ is really irrelevant to whether someone is invincibly ignorant. We have no way of telling if a person is willfully disobeying the truth of who Christ is or if they simply, intellectually, really do not believe that he is true. They may sincerely believe that he is not real but still live a life of good will and virtue according to the law written in their heart (see Romans 2.) These two factors combined would qualify a person as being invincibly ignorant and having a “baptism of desire” and thus the potential of being saved.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

How many sins does it take to go to hell?

What about the stain of original sin?

How do those things come into play?

 

[thistle]

Thistle: You have stated the idea of invincible ignorance correctly, but having heard of Christ is really irrelevant to whether someone is invincibly ignorant. We have no way of telling if a person is willfully disobeying the truth of who Christ is or if they simply, intellectually, really do not believe that he is true. They may sincerely believe that he is not real but still live a life of good will and virtue according to the law written in their heart (see Romans 2.) These two factors combined would qualify a person as being invincibly ignorant and having a “baptism of desire” and thus the potential of being saved.

Baptism of desire is different. That is of those who have heard about Christ and would like to know more but are somehow prevented from doing so.

On invincible ignorance I don’t believe a person would be saved if they simply live a good life but consciously do not believe in Christ. That is rejecting God.

 

[Genesis315]

We are not saved by works alone, there must be faith.

A better wording than focusing on “invincible ignorance” is the concept of “good faith.” If someone is in good faith, that is, they desire to completely surrender themselves to God–believing all He has revealed and doing all He has commanded–but are ignorant or mistaken about exactly what has been revealed and commanded, then they still have saving faith including and implicit faith in the Logos of God (the Divine Wisdom made flesh as Jesus Christ).

 

[MotherNoRest]

Daniel Marsh, thistle and Genesis:

I don’t know if you all are Catholic… but none seem to have a grasp of baptism of desire, invincible ignorance or salvation outside the church.

How many sins does it take to go to hell? Answer: One mortal sin, unrepented for.

How many sins does it take to go to heaven? Answer: Infinite, as long as they are all repented for.

Crude, I know, but that’s the answer.

The stain of original sin would be erased by a “baptism of desire” (see below).

The Church herself uses the term invincible ignorance. And baptism of desire does not only apply to those who knew about Jesus, though it does include them as well. The Church herself teaches that baptism of desire can apply to those who, had they known the truth of the Church and of Jesus Christ, would have belonged to it and been baptized. That’s Church teaching.

Also, those who lived a good life but did not conciously accept Christ are not rejecting God if they do not understand the need to accept Jesus Christ. We humans cannot judge who the people are who are invincibly ignorant. Only God can read the heart and know which people are willfully disobeying or blinded by grave sin vs. those who sincerely do not believe.

Also, we are saved by faith and good works. However, if a person is invincibly ignorant of God but still lives according to the law written on their hearts, that would replace (by baptism of desire) the normative type of faith.

Also, don’t consider the Bible as referring to good works when the Bible says we are not saved by works. That is mostly referring to the empty works of the law that displayed neither love nor worship of God. True good works (both spiritual and corporal) are of the utmost value and necessary to entering heaven (perseverence in good works). The Bible talks much about how we will be judged according to our deeds, which by the way, can only be done with God’s grace and not of our own natural ability.

 

[thistle]

Daniel Marsh, thistle and Genesis:

I don’t know if you all are Catholic… but none seem to have a grasp of baptism of desire, invincible ignorance or salvation outside the church.

How many sins does it take to go to hell? Answer: One mortal sin, unrepented for.

How many sins does it take to go to heaven? Answer: Infinite, as long as they are all repented for.

Crude, I know, but that’s the answer.

The stain of original sin would be erased by a “baptism of desire” (see below).

The Church herself uses the term invincible ignorance. And baptism of desire does not only apply to those who knew about Jesus, though it does include them as well. The Church herself teaches that baptism of desire can apply to those who, had they known the truth of the Church and of Jesus Christ, would have belonged to it and been baptized. That’s Church teaching.

Also, those who lived a good life but did not conciously accept Christ are not rejecting God if they do not understand the need to accept Jesus Christ. We humans cannot judge who the people are who are invincibly ignorant. Only God can read the heart and know which people are willfully disobeying or blinded by grave sin vs. those who sincerely do not believe.

Also, we are saved by faith and good works. However, if a person is invincibly ignorant of God but still lives according to the law written on their hearts, that would replace (by baptism of desire) the normative type of faith.

Also, don’t consider the Bible as referring to good works when the Bible says we are not saved by works. That is mostly referring to the empty works of the law that displayed neither love nor worship of God. True good works (both spiritual and corporal) are of the utmost value and necessary to entering heaven (perseverence in good works). The Bible talks much about how we will be judged according to our deeds, which by the way, can only be done with God’s grace and not of our own natural ability.

What condescending comments. You should apologise to the three you insulted!!

 

[MotherNoRest]

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to condescend. Daniel Marsh, when you ask questions, I cannot tell (such as how many sins does it take to go to hell) if you are trying to ask trick questions or if you are sincerely wondering. I actually started this thread so I could get information but I was serious and not being condescending when I said that the three I was talking to didn’t seem to understand the church’s position on salvation outside the church. I wouldn’t have a problem if someone told me I didn’t have a grasp on something since there are lots of doctrinal areas that I probably don’t understand very well.

I was looking for a specific answer, originally, on the Catholic understanding of the word “believe” in the NT. I think I will just call the apologists line so as not to insult anyone again.

Thanks to all of you.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hi MotherNORest, do you honestly believe that Hitler is going to heaven through invincible ignorance? I can’t think of anyone who would be more ignorant of Jesus then he.

How would you explain why or why not Hitler will or will not go to heaven via invincible ignorance?

Well, far be it from me to know who is and is not in hell, but I’d quote from St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (who was martyred at Auschwitz** by Hitler**), and affirm that even the most sinful of souls may be “outwitted” so to speak, by the grace of Christ…

One must investigate…what grace can do and whether even for it there is an absolute limit. This we have already seen: grace must come to man. By its own power, it can, at best, come up to his door but never force its way inside…it can come to him without his seeking it, without his desiring it. The question is whether it can complete its work without his cooperation. It seemed to us that this question had to be answered negatively…

Grace is the Spirit of God, who descends to the soul of man. It can find no abode there if it is not freely taken in. That is a hard truth. It implies…the possibility, in principle, of excluding oneself from redemption and the kingdom of grace…

*** All-merciful love can thus descend to everyone. We believe that it does so***… preparatory grace…can do no more than knock at the door… If [the soul] follows this inner prompting, then it subjects itself implicitly to the rule of grace. It is possible that it will not do this.

The more that grace wins ground from the things that had filled the soul before it, the more it repels the effects of the acts directed against it… ***faith in the unboundedness of divine love and grace also ***justifies hope for the universality of redemption, although, through the possibility of resistance to grace that remains open in principles, the possibility of eternal damnation also persists…

*** Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it may well be, so to speak, outwitted. The descent of grace to the human soul is a free act of divine love. And there are no limits to how far it may extend.***

[St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, aka Edith Stien, *Welt und Person. Beitrag zum christlichen Wahrheitsstreben,

ed. by L. Gelber and Romaeus Leuven, O.C.D. (Freiburg, 1962), pp. 158ff]
Notice too that this is NOT saying that we are justified by and erronous but certain conscience…which is an utterly false notion. Invincible ignorance alone cannot save…it takes Divine grace, supernatural faith and charity.

 

[jmcrae]

Notice too that this is NOT saying that we are justified by and erronous but certain conscience…which is an utterly false notion. Invincible ignorance alone cannot save…it takes Divine grace, supernatural faith and charity.

Thanks for this - yes, we are saved by Grace Alone - all of us - ignorance cannot, by itself, save - but it can leave a door unlocked through which the greatest thief of all can come in and steal our hearts.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Thanks for this - yes, we are saved by Grace Alone - all of us - ignorance cannot, by itself, save - but it can leave a door unlocked through which the greatest thief of all can come in and steal our hearts.

Boy, ain’t that the truth. Ignorance seems to be the chief cause of a great loss of souls.

St. Pius X warned:

the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. …

…there are large numbers of Christians in our own time who are entirely ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation. And when we mention Christians, We refer not only to the masses or to those in the lower walks of life - for these find some excuse for their ignorance in the fact that the demands of their harsh employers hardly leave them time to take care of themselves or of their dear ones - but We refer to those especially who do not lack culture or talents and, indeed, are possessed of abundant knowledge regarding things of the world but live rashly and imprudently with regard to religion. It is hard to find words to describe how profound is the darkness in which they are engulfed and, what is most deplorable of all, how tranquilly they repose there…

We do maintain that the will cannot be upright nor the conduct good when the mind is shrouded in the darkness of crass ignorance. A man who walks with open eyes may, indeed, turn aside from the right path, but a blind man is in much more imminent danger of wandering away…

We pray and entreat you to reflect on the great loss of souls due solely to ignorance of divine things…before all else, and with all possible zeal and diligence and care, see to it and urge on others that the knowledge of Christian doctrine pervades and imbues fully and deeply the minds of all. (Acerbo Nimis, 1905)