Help me explain that Christ had to die for our sins

[Millitant_Milly]

Dear NMHS
I heard an explaination once that helped me understand better. We are not perfect. The Bible in Genesis says it is due to Original Sin committed by our 1st ancestors which doomed us to an imperfect state & world. God is perfect & sinless. Some of us sin quite a lot and create a serious breech between us and the perfect one. How can we become friends & enjoy eternal life with a God who is sinless? God is all-just and cannot cohabit with sin. And yet, God created us and loves us. He wants us to join Him in this paradse of perfection for eternity. It is a dilemma!
God from the Garden of Eden came upon the solution right after man & woman originally sinned by promising a savior that would come, born of a woman who would crush the serpent’s (satan’s) head with her heel etc. Justice for sin demands punishment & distance from God. Having the Son of God made flesh come into the world was the answer, He would pay the price for our sins & redeem us with his blood. His blood pays the price for our transgressions and restores our relationship with God. There was a chasm between us and heaven, and Jesus became the bridge that allows us passageway to eternal life by teaching us truth, giving us eternal food for the journey and cleansing us with His holy blood sacrifice. God’s love provided the way back to a relationship with God. Jesus Christ is the way back to God and eternal life of glory. Praise the Lord for His mercy!

 

[Ben_Masada]

She cannot understand why in the OT they had sacrifices for their sins and she cannot understand that for eternal salvation, Jesus had to die on the Cross for our sins as a sacrifice.

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“If it quacks, it’s because it’s a duck.” Have you ever heard about this saying? Your mother is right by not being able or not wanting to understand that for salvation, Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins as a sacrifice.Simply because he didn’t.

Jesus was Jewish and he knew that’s against Biblical law for a man to sacrifice himself to death for another. Read Deteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:30; and Ezekiel 18:4. It means that there is no Biblical basis for the Pauline doctrine that Jesus died for our sins.

Ben:

 

[antonabe]

Jesus did not sacrifice himself by self immolation he was brought before an unjust court and condemned to death by brutal means which is recorded in the testamnets of the Apostles.This is also recorded in Jewish History.His death and the brutality of his death is also recorded in Isaiah’s prophecies.Jesus too predicted that he had to die as a means of redemption of mankind but although he was Divine he had to abide by the wishes of his Father Almighty God.As he said “If it is possible let this cup be taken away from me but If it is thy will let it be Done”.Almighty God has given all Humans a free will.If man does not have a free will there is no evil in this World.Man has to choose between right or wrong and events had to take place which resulted in the Death of Jesus Christ which was deemed necessary for the Salvltion of Man.Jesus was a Jew but he was preaching about a new covenant and Salvation of Mankind must be viewed in the Context of the new covenant.

 

[NMHS]

Everyone, thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, advice, opinions and correcting my terminology. I have spoken with my mom and I will continue to direct some of these points her way. Thanks!

 

[antonabe]

Everyone, thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, advice, opinions and correcting my terminology. I have spoken with my mom and I will continue to direct some of these points her way. Thanks!

We must also pray for her.Let the Holy Spirit inspire her to have Faith and search for the truth.I was an indifferent Catholic myself going through the motions of going for rituals without any understanding of the Faith.Reading of the Bible aroused my curiosity Isaiah,Ezekial,Malachi provide deep meaning to the New Testament.God Bless You and Your Mother.

 

[jcrichton]

A couple of weeks ago my mom and I were discussing christianity, the bible, heaven and hell. My mom doesn’t go to a Christian church. She believes if a person does good then they dont sind and then they will go to heaven. She believes in God, she believes that Jesus was a profit sent by God, but not the Son of God. She cannot understand why in the OT they had sacrifices for their sins and she cannot understand that for eternal salvation, Jesus had to die on the Cross for our sins as a sacrifice. I did my best to explain this to her by using some scriptures. She then said well OK I somewhat understand by she still cannot grasp it. She doesn’t understand that God needed a sacrifice for our sins and she doesn’t believe in the word sin.

So I then gave her two chapters in the bible to read,
Romans 3:1-25 and 6:1-23 for the definition for sin, I also gave her Hebrews 9:11-30 for the sacrifice. She has then asked me how do the scriptures apply to us today. In my own words I can only give her a idea of how the scriptures apply to us today, but I know by posting this question and asking for guidance from God that I will get some ideas on how to answer her questions without stumbling to much. I believe God is working in her heart about these issues. Thanks, NMHS

Hi!

Read the following Scriptures:

Deuteronomy 30:19
St. John 11:25
St. John 14:6
St. John 3:16-21, and
Ephisians 3:1-21

…once you’ve studied the above, invite your mother to read them with you… ask her leading questions to point her to the answers given in these passages: Christ is our Lord and Savior, the only means of Salvation and Eternal Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

What does it mean to say that “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.”? What a bizarre thing to stipulate, that before god can forgive our sins blood must be shed. Why would god insist upon such a bizarre thing? Can you imagine telling one of your children that you will forgive them for some offense, but first “blood must be shed”?

Tell her that God created us so that we are completely unable to meet his criteria for behavior, but he was willing to over look this fact after he brutally killed his own son.

In other words, God felt in necessary to brutally kill his own son before he would even consider forgiving our sins. Tell her that she on the other hand can forgive whomever she wants without first having to kill anyone, and that only god needs to brutally kill people before he can offer forgiveness. Kind of weird isn’t it? I’ve forgiven dozens of people and never once had to crucify anybody; yet God created us in his own image and he was so sicken by our nature that he felt compelled to brutally kill his own son.

The truly bizzare thing is that you continue to hold anti-Christian values and you seek audiences that, for the most part, are Catholics… stop venting your venon here… there are many places in the cyber wolrd were your theology will be greated with awe and enthusiasm…

All you will get here is the prayer of many who will feel compelled, as I do, to pray for your soul.

May the Mercy and Blood of our Lord and God Jesus Christ mend your body and mind and bring you to His Fold!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not trying to be argumentative really, but just how can you believe in substitutional sacrifice, and why does this loving God demand a blood sacrifice? I’m reminded of Mayan sacrifice.

…as I remember, Mayan sacrifice involved killing for profit; once their regular victims were exhausted they would war on less powerful tribes and begin the bloodshed anew… Yahweh did not ask Israel to sacrifice his children to Him; Jesus, God’s Only Begotten Son, was made the Sacrificial Lamb to bring Salvation to both the Jew and the Gentiles… could your comaparison be more removed?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not in the least helpful. It was just rehashing all that stuff. What I want to know is why a substitutionary sacrifice, especially one so bloody, is required in the first place. Violent nature of God I suppose. Christianity would be much more palatable with less blood splattering about. I really think humans have matured well beyond such hideous concepts.

If God was as violent as you perceive Him, do you not think that He would strike you down as you think such thoughts and attempt to proliferate them?

Rather, He attests that:

I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – declares the Lord Yahweh – so repent and live!’ (Ezekiel 18:32–NJB)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Christianity would be much more palatable with less blood splattering about. I really think humans have matured well beyond such hideous concepts.

…sorry did not notice your other thoughts… Yeah Christianity would be wonderful is we follow our own whims rather than obey God’s Commandments… just look at the wonderful financial industry and the new pres–how does he improve our financial woes? …well he signs a bill to pick up the cost of abortions worldwide!

…yeah, enlighten human beings as we are we surely have come well beyond such hideous concepts as sacrificing children (USA alone over 50 million abortions to date) to the gods of moolah and eros.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Well, forgive me my ignorance. I don’t understand why people who truly believe in a paradise after death think that death is such a sacrifice. Especially when Jesus was assured of paradise since he is God. So how does Jesus dying, even by crucifixion, compare to the way many people die. Lots of people suffer more than Christ did and they have no where near the assurance of paradise after death. Christ knew full well that he would be bodily resurrected in three days. How many people have had that assurance? So where is the big sacrifice?

The Big Sacrifice is that God did not have to become Incarnate, be despised by His Chosen people (Israel), have His human body be tortured and put to death… He chose to do it in order to bring us Hope, Salvation, and Eternal Life… why did He chose to do so and in such a manner? Eventually you will meet Him then you can inquire directly from the source!

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: Suffering such arguments as your is a little sacricifice for all true Christians!

 

[jcrichton]

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“If it quacks, it’s because it’s a duck.” Have you ever heard about this saying? Your mother is right by not being able or not wanting to understand that for salvation, Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins as a sacrifice.Simply because he didn’t.

Jesus was Jewish and he knew that’s against Biblical law for a man to sacrifice himself to death for another. Read Deteronomy 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jeremiah 31:30; and Ezekiel 18:4. It means that there is no Biblical basis for the Pauline doctrine that Jesus died for our sins.

Ben:

…your trying too hard Ben… to use your expression… sotp quacking so much…

Don’t forget: Jesus, your Lord and Savior, Loves you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[DD2007]

Here is what I believe on this topic:

God created man with the free will to choose. Man chose to sin. That sin permanently changed the nature of man into a state of natural depravity. That is why we die. There was indeed a physical change in man. The sin of Adam is imputed naturally to each human being through the male line as Adam is the federal head of mankind. All who are of the lineage of Adam as the federal head will certainly and justifiably die because they are naturally evil.

God through His mercy sent His son to die for us so that our sins may be forgiven. This is the only way that it could be done. Adam is not the federal head of Christ because Christ’s father is God Himself! Thus no sin was imputed to him. He is the only one who could ever be an innocent sacrifice to fully complete the law of God through perfect obedience. On the cross Christ took on the sins of the world and bore the guilt and punishment of all mankind through perfectly righteous sacrifice. This was the only way he could have died as he did not earn that punishment in any way though deed or imputation but took it on willingly. God raised him from the dead and he is now sitting at the right hand of the Father in Glory.

Because of this, even though we sin because we are sinners by nature, we can have the righteousness of Christ, who is now the federal head of the Church, imputed to us by the grace of God! God is just and right and good to let us reap what we have planted. God is indeed merciful and good and loving to give us a gift of salvation that we don’t deserve. The finite cannot contain the infinite and we cannot know the full greatness and glory of His ways and His character. But we do know that he is our savior and has born the punishment of the sins on himself that we earned together as a people. The choice of who he brings to heaven and who he doesn’t is His alone and it is just and good.

 

[Mintaka]

DD2007 –
But God gives every human being the desire and possibility to be saved. God does not will that anyone should go to Hell. He permits humans to choose – do they want eternal life, or eternal death? He will save them, but only if they want to be saved.

If you really don’t believe that humans have free will to this extent, why do you even bother to post on this board? If we are puppets whose fate is wholly determined by God without cooperation of any kind from us, then obviously it’s pointless to evangelize or argue any kind of religious point.

Ben –
Nowhere in the Bible does it say, “It is forbidden to put your life in peril, or to die, in order to save another.” Nowhere does it say, “God is forbidden to die for His people.”

It’s like saying that nobody can cross a river with one step. Well, if you go upstream far enough, you can. That doesn’t destroy the truth of what was said; it just shows that there’s more to it.

Jesus wasn’t breaking laws against human sacrifice or drinking blood or any of that; he was going upstream of them.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Thanks that help me get started, anything else?

Yes go to breakingchristiannews.com…f.html?ld=6341
God Bless Nancy

 

[DD2007]

If you really don’t believe that humans have free will to this extent, why do you even bother to post on this board? If we are puppets whose fate is wholly determined by God without cooperation of any kind from us, then obviously it’s pointless to evangelize or argue any kind of religious point.

QUOTE]

The mind of God knows everything thus everything is already known and predetermined by Him. There are no accidents with God nor is He ever surprised. All goodness comes from God all wickedness from fallen creatures. God knows the final results of everything.

Humans don’t know everything we are finite so to us it looks like we can control our lives. Some follow the commands of Christ because he told them to do so and by grace they believe Him and he uses them how he will. Others do not believe because they can’t due to their unregenerate nature however they can also be used to his will as well in other ways. Regardless if you think you have free will or you realise that your life is predestined it will all look the same to you. Everything is good as it all works out according to God’s Divine plan. We are lucky to be alive. God is good to us.

 

[PJM]

NMHS;4744567]A couple of weeks ago my mom and I were discussing Christianity, the bible, heaven and hell. My mom doesn’t go to a Christian church. She believes if a person does good then they don’t sin and then they will go to heaven.

My friend, allow me please to offer you some specific biblical passages that might aid you and mom both?

1 John Ch. 1"and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. **If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." **

This passage means that it is **a physical and a moral impossibility **for all of humanity to not be a sinner. Which is precisely why Christ became the “man-God” and died to Redeem us. By which is meant, that by becoming “man” and dying for us, Heaven that had been closed due to the sins of Adam and Eve, was once again opened.

Be aware that “redemption” and “salvation” have vastly different meaning. Look them up in your dictionary.

It is because all of mankinds are sinners, that Christ chose to become man.

She believes in God, she believes that Jesus was a profit sent by God, but not the Son of God.

Luke Chapter 1: “26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary and he came to her and said, “** Hail, full of grace **, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, **you will conceive **in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born * will be called holy, the Son of God.”

That is clear and binding evidence that:

Mary gave birth to a son

He was named Jesus

She was impreginated by “the Holy Spirit” (who too is God), that by God Himself.

Therefore Jesus is God
and
Mary is His Mother and the Mother of God!

She cannot understand why in the OT they had sacrifices for their sins and she cannot understand that for eternal salvation, Jesus had to die on the Cross for our sins as a sacrifice. I did my best to explain this to her by using some scriptures. She then said well OK I somewhat understand by she still cannot grasp it. She doesn’t understand that God needed a sacrifice for our sins and she doesn’t believe in the word sin.

Very perceptive question!

First, allow me to explain again that there was NO ACCESS to heaven, before Christ birth, life, death and resurrection. So the good went to a place without any pain or suffering, yet they were without COMPLETE JOY, as they were NOT in the actual Presence of God. The bad people were and still are in hell!

What is sin? Simply put, sin is saying “no to God,” in a lesser or greater manner. If one doubts the existence of sin, read about the Commandments and the Beatitudes.

Old Testament sacrifices were an imperfect way to acknowledge that one was a SINNER and that one was a Repentant Sinner, as evidenced by their display of sorrow.

Even today, repentance and conversion (changing ones way of living, are required in our Sacrament of Confession.

Old Test. Deut. 30: “6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. And the LORD your God will put all these curses upon your foes and enemies whom persecuted you. And you shall again obey the voice of the LORD, and keep all his commandments which I command you this day.”

New Test. 1 John 5: “
1 “Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.”

It is helpful to understand that the New Testament is hidden in the OT, and the OT is perfected and fulfilled in the NT.

So I then gave her two chapters in the bible to read, Romans 3:1-25 and 6:1-23 for the definition for sin, I also gave her Hebrews 9:11-30 for the sacrifice. She has then asked me how do the scriptures apply to us today. In my own words I can only give her a idea of how the scriptures apply to us today, …Thanks, NMHS

Smart lady, your mom!

The answer lies in understanding that God remains in our midst. Most notably in Catholic Holy Communion, but also: Mt. 18:18, speaking “only” of the Spirit of God. “18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

The bible applies to us today because it is “all about us” and our relationship with God. Jesus came to lead us to His Father in Heaven, the bible is the road map on how do just that

May I suggest you cut and copy this so mom can read it herself, and then post any other questions that may pop up.

I’ll offer a prayer for both you and mom!

 

[a_burger]

in answer to jc richton

In answer to why Jesus death wasn’t such a big sacrifice. Did you actually ever read the brutality of the cruxifiction? Did you ever read how Jesus sacrificial death is for the atonement for our sins? Maybe if read about these historical events you wouldn’t write such a stupid statement.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

in answer to jc richton

In answer to why Jesus death wasn’t such a big sacrifice. Did you actually ever read the brutality of the cruxifiction? Did you ever read how Jesus sacrificial death is for the atonement for our sins? Maybe if read about these historical events you wouldn’t write such a stupid statement.

Dont cast your pearls amoung swine that is scriptual.That was God almighty who came to earth,a King taken a low place and dying for all good and bad, slave, and free man.And if he didn’t we would be headed to hell on a banana peel.God loves his people he lived on earth in the arc of the covenant just to be close to his people, when that didn’t go to well, he came as man and suffered the sins of the WORLD.Was beaten, spit on, crowned with thorns, given vinigar on his dry parched lips as he hung there in total discrace, He took on all the sins,of the world past present and future his death brings life to all who beleive,and eternal life to those who walk with him and endure till the end May Gods Grace be sufficiant for you: In Jesus name Amen. Nancy

 

[ASD]

Good questions, NMHS. I want to focus on question about necessity of sacrifice.

[W]hy does this loving God demand a blood sacrifice? I’m reminded of Mayan sacrifice.

Exactly. To my mind, that’s the question, stated with disconcerting clarity. [But see http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4777947&postcount=28”]this on obvious differences.]

Crimson Seraph;4744659:

… according to Hebrews “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.” . . . God cannot simply wink at sin or look the other way, God is good yes, but God is also holy and just. This is why Jesus had to die, to pay the debt that mankind owes God.

What does it mean to say that “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.”? What a bizarre thing to stipulate, … Kind of weird isn’t it? I’ve forgiven dozens of people and never once had to crucify anybody; yet God created us in his own image and he was so sicken by our nature that he felt compelled to brutally kill his own son.

Yea, it most certainly is bizarre and weird. I guess everybody, including OP who asked the question, can see that. However, IMHO, it’s just too easy and self-serving to say, “Gosh, that doesn’t really make sense to me or appeal to me. Therefore, it’s obviously [fertilizer].”

What I want to know is why a substitutionary sacrifice, especially one so bloody, is required in the first place. Violent nature of God I suppose. Christianity would be much more palatable with less blood splattering about. I really think humans have matured well beyond such hideous concepts.

That’s the right question. But, I’m not satisfied with the answer. To my mind, it’s just too easy: “We’re not into it; we’re so past it; it must be [bunk].” Although I don’t expect you to agree, to my mind you’re just, like, worshipping yourself. Or something close to that. Like, putting your faith in yourself and your generation and your mores, etc. Not for me.

You must understand the Hebrew sacrifice.

Sure, the tradition has got to be relevant. But, in a sense, the question is: Why that tradition?

We are not perfect…serious breech between us and the perfect one. How can we become friends & enjoy eternal life with a God who is sinless? God is all-just and cannot cohabit with sin. And yet, God created us and loves us. He wants us to join Him in this paradse of perfection for eternity. It is a dilemma!

Yea, it makes sense to say that God can’t abide sin. But, the question is: Why did he have to torture his only son to death the forgive or remove the sin?

Justice for sin demands punishment & distance from God. Having the Son of God made flesh come into the world was the answer, He would pay the price for our sins & redeem us with his blood.

God cannot simply wink at sin or look the other way, God is good yes, but God is also holy and just.

So, some satisfaction had to be made? Why? Why not simply forgive?

God/Christ did not HAVE to die in order for us to be redeemed; He did not NEED to do it that way. But it was the way He chose to do it.

I think this is a pretty good answer. He didn’t have to do it. But, the question remains: Why did He do it? Maybe all we can say is, “We don’t know why; it’s what He chose.” But, I don’t want to throw in the towel just yet.

So, here’s my attempt:

1. 
   *]God doesn’t need a sacrifice. His creatures do; we do. Hence, Christ crucified is the ultimate example of trust and obedience. [This idea depends on translation of the Greek phrase pistis Christou, at Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, Gal 2:20, Phil. 3.9, & Eph. 3.12 as “faith of Christ” rather than “faith in Christ.”]
   *]Restitution was necessary because real love involves real freedom. Real freedom involves real choices. Real choices involve real consequences. Simple foregiveness, without any kind of restitution, turns our moral lives into some kind child’s make believe. Now that would be a horrible God.
   
   I will be really glad if others can give better suggestions.
   

   TIA. ASD​

   Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar