Help me explain that Christ had to die for our sins

[antonabe]

As mentioned before by several, we have to go back to the origin of life and the first Sin.Mankind over several Generations lived with this Sin and what was the best way of removing this stain.?Will Simple fprgiveness help?The end result of this Sin by the first Man and Woman was Death,the elimination of everlasting life.Christ came to this earth to eliminate death by death and subsequent resurrection.I will not use the word sacrificed himself as he was the victim of injustice and mans brutality to man and suffered what every Human being suffers in this world,death.But he did something that no one has done before he resurrected himself thus paving the way for all those who believe in his covenant to gain everlasting life.His Death therefore removed the stigma of Sin which all Mankind past,present and future carry.

 

[a_burger]

God is always bailiing us out. When Adam and Eve sinned they didn’t want to be naked. Who supplied the clothes? God made the clothes. When we sinned who supplied the blood sacrifice. God supplied his son. We are very dependent on God. Really we are pretty pathetic.

 

[Anita1945]

I am not sure that it is possible to explain to a person who is not a christian why Jesus had to die for our sins. But this is what I would say: In John.3.16 it says: For God LOVED the world so much that he gave his only Son so that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Nobody has greater love than he who gives his life for his fellowman. So it was out of LOVE to his people that God “allowed” Jesus to be crucified. Through this act of LOVE God speaks to each of us personally, also to your mother.
Dont give up if she does not believe what you try to convince her of. Only God himself and the Holy Spirit can give her the Faith to believe this. You can do a great deal by praying for her. Maybe you can also advise her to ask God herself to give her understanding of Gods Word. God bless you!

 

[NMHS]

Thank you everyone for the replies, I am noting them down for future discussion with my mom. thanks!

 

[Salonika]

Namesake:

Not trying to be argumentative really, but just how can you believe in substitutional sacrifice, and why does this loving God demand a blood sacrifice?

This is a question I have asked myself for years and years. I am glad it is being addressed here because so many times in the past I was told off not only for asking it but even thinking it.

It is also strange at the moment as there have been a couple of other threads that address other fundamental concerns I have/had.

Split he post into two to make it a bit more digestible.
John Donlan:

Thus, when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the One that they offended was infinite…and the extent of their offence was infinite because of Who they offended. How could this be rectified? If Adam and/or Eve were to die, would this be enough to compensate for the infinite offence done to God? No. They were ‘finite’ beings, and no amount of offering on their part could make up for the infinite offence of their sin against “The” infinite being.

So God the Father, in His infinite and outreaching love for our souls ……had to find a way to help us ‘undo’ the infinite offence of sin. The only way that this could be done is if ‘someone’ who is infinite could be sacrificed in reparation. Hence, Jesus – His very own Son – was asked to offer Himself as an infinite sacrifice in reparation for sin.

Because of the merciful offering of Jesus …… the gates of Heaven could finally be opened to us. Our sins could be forgiven because (even though they have infinite repercussions) an infinite sacrifice was made for them on Calvary.

This is a logical explanation if you accept its basic premises eg that the Adam and Eve story is totally literal, that one person’s sin can be cancelled out by another’s sacrifice, that is acceptable for a father to demand the death of a son in reparation. The later is not, in my view, the behaviour of a loving parent.

As a child this view caused me terrors – what might God demand I do in reparation for someone else’s sins? What might he demand of someone else that I knew. God struck me as cruel and capricious, not characteristics I associated (or associate)with love.

I was no more enamoured of being the recipient – I didn’t want something at the expense of someone else’s life.

Also the next time it might be me who was required to die. Or maybe my parents, one of my relatives, one of my friends.

 

[Salonika]

namesake:

Well, forgive me my ignorance. I don’t understand why people who truly believe in a paradise after death think that death is such a sacrifice. Especially when Jesus was assured of paradise since he is God.

Yes, I have also asked this question. I certainly thought how awful it was that Jesus died and how awful that death must have been. But I also thought would it be as bad as someone dying knowing that it was the end? Again, I did learn to be very careful about articulating such thoughts.
Militant Milly:

I heard an explanation once that helped me understand better. We are not perfect. The Bible in Genesis says it is due to Original Sin committed by our 1st ancestors which doomed us to an imperfect state & world. God is perfect & sinless. Some of us sin quite a lot and create a serious breech between us and the perfect one. How can we become friends & enjoy eternal life with a God who is sinless?

This may be a diversion but this reminded me of another question I asked as a child. I knew we couldn’t be perfect but I would hear we were to be “perfect as Our Father who is heaven is”. Thank goodness someone once suggested to be that this mean doing what was appropriate at the time.

Mintaka:

If you really don’t believe that humans have free will to this extent, why do you even bother to post on this board? If we are puppets whose fate is wholly determined by God without cooperation of any kind from us, then obviously it’s pointless to evangelize or argue any kind of religious point.

Because some of us want/need to discuss the questions we have. Other people’s answers/(name removed by moderator)ut helps us consider our views –sometimes as a result we change them, sometimes they are reinforced. Jesus certainly questioned the views of his time.
a burger:

God is always bailing us out …. We are very dependent on God. Really we are pretty pathetic.

Don’t think the last two sentences go together. What incentive does us to discern what God wants us to do, to keep trying when we fail if we are pathetic? Also while we can be pathetic we are not pathetic.

 

[antonabe]

This question has been dealth with and we have recived 46 responses so far and some of them have been most revealing.If after reading all these you are still in the dark suggest you pray to the Holy Spirit and ask him to inspire you.God Bless You

 

[spauline]

This should help very well:

Darth Vader, Lust, and hell

Why does even one mortal sin merit eternal debt? Why is hell eternal, and not merely temporal punishment followed by annihilation? Why is the Incarnation and Passion the only way to pay for the debt?

 

[MarysGirls]

NMHS,

She believes in God, she believes that Jesus was a profit sent by God, but not the Son of God.

If you look at all that Jesus said, you can see that it is not possible that Jesus was only a prophet sent by God. He said Himself that He is the Son of God.
C. S. Lewis put it this way. Jesus could only have been one of three things: a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Jesus said that He is the Son of God. Now, He could have lied, but why would he stick to that lie even to the point of death? And why have so many others given their lives for Him if He lied? What did it gain Him anyway? He was hated by the Romans because He made Himself to be greater than Caesar, and He was hated by the Jews because He claimed to be the Son of God and that was blasphemy. The only people who liked Him were His followers and many of them turned and later cried to have Him crucified. And how would you explain His miracles? If He was a liar, God would not look kindly upon Him and perform miracles though Him. He couldn’t have done miracles through Satan either though. He cast out demons; Satan can’t cast out Satan.
Okay, maybe He was a lunatic. Could a lunatic have cleverly answered the Pharisees’ questions? And if He was a lunatic, why did the Pharisees even bother with Him. They knew that He wasn’t a lunatic and they feared that. Also, can a lunatic knowingly perform miracles?
THis only leaves one option. He must be Lord just as He said, “I Am”.

 

[jcrichton]

So, here’s my attempt:

1. 
   *]God doesn’t need a sacrifice. His creatures do; we do. Hence, Christ crucified is the ultimate example of trust and obedience. [This idea depends on translation of the Greek phrase pistis Christou

1. 
   , at Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, Gal 2:20, Phil. 3.9, & Eph. 3.12 as “faith of Christ” rather than “faith in Christ.”]
   *]Restitution was necessary because real love involves real freedom. Real freedom involves real choices. Real choices involve real consequences. Simple foregiveness, without any kind of restitution, turns our moral lives into some kind child’s make believe. Now that would be a horrible God.
   
   I will be really glad if others can give better suggestions.
   
   TIA. ASD
   
   Modern “Believers” fail to accept Yahweh God’s Design; here’s St. Paul’s revelations on Christ’s Crucifixion:
   
   14 For the love of Christ overwhelms us when we consider that if one man died for all, then all have died; 15 his purpose in dying for all humanity was that those who live should live not any more for themselves, but for him who died and was raised to life.
   16 From now onwards, then, we will not consider anyone by human standards: even if we were once familiar with Christ according to human standards, we do not know him in that way any longer. 17 So for anyone who is in Christ, there is a new creation: the old order is gone and a new being is there to see. 18 It is all God’s work; he reconciled us to himself through Christ and he gave us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 I mean, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not holding anyone’s faults against them, but entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ; it is as though God were urging you through us, and in the name of Christ we appeal to you to be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made the sinless one a victim for sin, so that in him we might become the uprightness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:14-21)
   
   6 When we were still helpless, at the appointed time, Christ died for the godless. 7 You could hardly find anyone ready to die even for someone upright; though it is just possible that, for a really good person, someone might undertake to die. 8 So it is proof of God’s own love for us, that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. 9 How much more can we be sure, therefore, that, now that we have been justified by his death, we shall be saved through him from the retribution of God. 10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more can we be sure that, being now reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:6-10)
   
   1 What should we say then? Should we remain in sin so that grace may be given the more fully? 2 Out of the question! We have died to sin; how could we go on living in it? 3 You cannot have forgotten that all of us, when we were baptised into Christ Jesus, were baptised into his death. 4 So by our baptism into his death we were buried with him, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the Father’s glorious power, we too should begin living a new life. 5 If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so we shall be by a resurrection like his;
   6 realising that our former self was crucified with him, so that the self which belonged to sin should be destroyed and we should be freed from the slavery of sin. 7 Someone who has died, of course, no longer has to answer for sin. 8 But we believe that, if we died with Christ, then we shall live with him too. 9 We know that Christ has been raised from the dead and will never die again. Death has no power over him any more. 10 For by dying, he is dead to sin once and for all, and now the life that he lives is life with God. 11 In the same way, you must see yourselves as being dead to sin but alive for God in Christ Jesus. 12 That is why you must not allow sin to reign over your mortal bodies and make you obey their desires; 13 or give any parts of your bodies over to sin to be used as instruments of evil. Instead, give yourselves to God, as people brought to life from the dead, and give every part of your bodies to God to be instruments of uprightness; 14 and then sin will no longer have any power over you – you are living not under law, but under grace. (Romans 6:1-14)
   
   4 In the same way you, my brothers, through the body of Christ have become dead to the Law and so you are able to belong to someone else, that is, to him who was raised from the dead to make us live fruitfully for God. 5 While we were still living by our natural inclinations, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were working in all parts of our bodies to make us live lives which were fruitful only for death. 6 But now we are released from the Law, having died to what was binding us, and so we are in a new service, that of the spirit, and not in the old service of a written code. (Romans 7:4-6)
   
   …St. Peter’s:
   
   17 And if it is the will of God that you should suffer, it is better to suffer for doing right than for doing wrong. 18 Christ himself died once and for all for sins, the upright for the sake of the guilty, to lead us to God. In the body he was put to death, in the spirit he was raised to life, 19 and, in the spirit, he went to preach to the spirits in prison. 20 They refused to believe long ago, while God patiently waited to receive them, in Noah’s time when the ark was being built. In it only a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water. 21 It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now – not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has entered heaven and is at God’s right hand, with angels, ruling forces and powers subject to him. (1 St. Peter 3:17-22)
   
   If we lived by Faith, Christ Crucifixion is not a mystery!
   
   Maran atha!
   
   Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is a question I have asked myself for years and years. I am glad it is being addressed here because so many times in the past I was told off not only for asking it but even thinking it.

It is also strange at the moment as there have been a couple of other threads that address other fundamental concerns I have/had.

Split he post into two to make it a bit more digestible.

This is a logical explanation if you accept its basic premises eg that the Adam and Eve story is totally literal, that one person’s sin can be cancelled out by another’s sacrifice, that is acceptable for a father to demand the death of a son in reparation. The later is not, in my view, the behaviour of a loving parent.

As a child this view caused me terrors – what might God demand I do in reparation for someone else’s sins? What might he demand of someone else that I knew. God struck me as cruel and capricious, not characteristics I associated (or associate)with love.

I was no more enamoured of being the recipient – I didn’t want something at the expense of someone else’s life.

Also the next time it might be me who was required to die. Or maybe my parents, one of my relatives, one of my friends.

…your views as a child was flawed; God does not demand that you take upon yourself the sins of others… He has done that Himself in the Incarnation of the Word…

Here’s the trick: Jesus tells us that a true friend Gives His Life for others… He is our True Friend.

He warns His Disciples that the disciple is not greater than the master… He expects us to Be that Friend that Willingly Gives His Life for others…

So you see, you are not forced to do anything for anyone (not even for yourself); you are asked to emulate Jesus and Love God and your neighbor; this Love is Salvific Love which places the Believer as the least important person. (“For who is the greater: the one at table or the one who serves? The one at table, surely? Yet here am I among you as one who serves!”)

See St. John 3:16!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, I have also asked this question. I certainly thought how awful it was that Jesus died and how awful that death must have been. But I also thought would it be as bad as someone dying knowing that it was the end? Again, I did learn to be very careful about articulating such thoughts.

Noticed how the insipid elite always lookdown upon those they consider their inferior? Imagine if you were that Omnipotent Being that Created all that exists out of nothingness… would becoming a human being and allowing other humans to judge you, mock you, insult you, physically assault you, and even put you to death in the manner which they believe is most offensive to all human not demonstrate your Patience, Mercy, and Love for these insignifican beings which are your Creation?

…I knew we couldn’t be perfect but I would hear we were to be “perfect as Our Father who is heaven is”. Thank goodness someone once suggested to be that this mean doing what was appropriate at the time.

…but you understand that that is only a suggestion, right? When Yahweh God calls us to be perfect, He is not suggesting that we do the best we can with what is in front of us; He is demanding that we submit our will to His: “…be perfect for I Am Perfect.” (See Isaiah 1:18-20)

Because some of us want/need to discuss the questions we have. Other people’s answers/(name removed by moderator)ut helps us consider our views –sometimes as a result we change them, sometimes they are reinforced. Jesus certainly questioned the views of his time.

Jesus did not question the views of His time; He corrected the circumventions of the Law!

We, as His disciples have the freedom to seek answers and the obligation to abide in Christ regardless upon the doctrines/philosophies that the world made present us with; even when these doctrines/philosophies are home-grown, we are to uphold the Ten Commandments–the first demands that we place nothing above God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ASD]

Good questions, NMHS. I want to focus on question about necessity of sacrifice.

…

So, here’s my attempt:

1. 
   *]God doesn’t need a sacrifice. His creatures do; we do. Hence, Christ crucified is the ultimate example of trust and obedience. [This idea depends on translation of the Greek phrase pistis Christou

1. 
   , at Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, Gal 2:20, Phil. 3.9, & Eph. 3.12 as “faith of Christ” rather than “faith in Christ.”]
   *]Restitution was necessary because real love involves real freedom. Real freedom involves real choices. Real choices involve real consequences. Simple foregiveness, without any kind of restitution, turns our moral lives into some kind child’s make believe. Now that would be a horrible God.
   
   The Gospel reading for next Sunday, March 8, 2009, the 2nd Sunday of Lent, Mark 9:2-10, about the Transfiguration, have suggested another answer to me.
   
   Specifically, a footnote in the Life Application Bible says this:
   

   Jesus told Peter, James and John not to speak about what they had seen because they would not fully understand it until Jesus had risen from the dead. Then they would realize that only through dying could Jesus show his power over death . . …

   TIA. ASD​

   Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[jcrichton]

The Gospel reading for next Sunday, March 8, 2009, the 2nd Sunday of Lent, Mark 9:2-10, about the Transfiguration, have suggested another answer to me.

Specifically, a footnote in the Life Application Bible says this:

Quote:
Jesus told Peter, James and John not to speak about what they had seen because they would not fully understand it until Jesus had risen from the dead. Then they would realize that only through dying could Jesus show his power over death . . …

TIA. ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

I do not agree with the reason stated on the cited text since Jesus brought back to life several people, including Lazarus who was known to Him and His disciples. I consider Jesus Command in light of those other passages where He avoids letting His Divinity be revealed; He, as the Lamb of God must remain true to the role of the Suffering Servant. Compare the following passages:

and he said, 'To you is granted to understand the secrets of the kingdom of God; for the rest it remains in parables, so that they may look but not perceive, listen but not understand. (St. Luke 8:10)

26 'So do not be afraid of them. Everything now covered up will be uncovered, and everything now hidden will be made clear. 27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the daylight; what you hear in whispers, proclaim from the housetops. (St. Matthew 10:26-27)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[a_burger]

Christ died for our sins because Father God required a blood sacrifice to forgive sins. Animal sacrifice only covered sins. It had to be a perfect sacrifice. Christ also being god was the perfect sacrifice, since no mere man could qualify. The evidence is that Christ descended into hell and released the people on the good side of Sheoul and preached the Gospel to ones on the wrong side of Sheoul to give them a fair chance for salvation. This is the answer right from the Bible.

 

[jcrichton]

Christ died for our sins because Father God required a blood sacrifice to forgive sins. Animal sacrifice only covered sins. It had to be a perfect sacrifice. Christ also being god was the perfect sacrifice, since no mere man could qualify. The evidence is that Christ descended into hell and released the people on the good side of Sheoul and preached the Gospel to ones on the wrong side of Sheoul to give them a fair chance for salvation. This is the answer right from the Bible.

I concur with your statement about Christ, but could you expand on the “good/wrong side of Sheoul?”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[walshy]

You can’t take part in your own salvation.Chrit returned love for love.God created the human rase out of love the human rase returned that love with sin.Perfection returned to perfection.My sins nailed the perfect sacrafice to the cross.

 

[Esquire0130]

Many say that Christ did NOT have to die for our sins, that God could have done it another way. I believe that that perspective is wrong, and that Christ DID have to die for our sins. Here is what I think is the closest we can come to explaining why.

For mysterious reasons, there is a God “up there” Who is overflowing with love. Because He is like that, He desired to create beings to love and to be loved by Him.

But, God is sovereign. It is “against God-ness,” so to speak, to create equals. So, we HAD to be less than God.

But, this generates a problem: Beings with the free will needed to love and to be lovable MUST have self-awareness. It is part of the definition of free will, in effect.

That means that we free will beings understand our contingency – our innate insecurity.

Called-upon to exercise our wills, beings like that – like us – will respond to “the call of insecurity” by screwing-up every time.

The story of Adam and Eve isn’t history. To view it as history is to defeat it’s purpose. The purpose of the story of Adam and Eve is to show how we WOULD handle EVERY moral decision before us IF grace were not available. The story thus explains why salvation is necessary.

But, why did Christ have to DIE?

That is because in addition to being sovereign God is perfectly just.

The fact that free will beings with self-awareness require grace to not screw up every time so that they will not rebel against God and so be permitted to enter into a love relationship with God triggers a problem: God’s perfect justice, in a sense, says, “NO! NO! THERE ARE NO ‘PENNIES FROM HEAVEN’! NO ONE GETS ‘SOMETHING FOR NOTHING’! SOMEONE HAS GOT TO PAY FOR THIS GRACE, WHICH PERMITS THESE PIGS TO SHAKE GOD’S HAND! SINCE THIS GRACE PERMITS THEM TO NOT SUFFER TERRIBLY AND DIE, A PRE-EXISTING LIFE HAS TO BE BE MADE TO SUFFER TERRIBLY AND THEN SACRIFICED TO PAY FOR THEIR LIFE!”

Being filled with love, God the Son responds to the call of the perfect justice within God Himself by, in a sense, raising His hand and saying, “I WILL. I’LL PAY! I’LL SUFFER AND DIE!”

God the Father, being filled with love, says, “I LOVINGLY ACCEPT YOUR OFFER, AND SO LOVINGLY OFFER YOU TO SUFFER TERRIBLY AND DIE!”

So, the answser to the question in this thread is, “Christ had to die because to create us and then love us generated a requirement, by God’s Own perfect justice, that God pay for this by suffering and dying.”

 

[ASD]

…The story of Adam and Eve isn’t history. . . . The purpose of the story of Adam and Eve is to show how we WOULD handle EVERY moral decision before us IF grace were not available. The story thus explains why salvation is necessary.

But, why did Christ have to DIE?

That is because in addition to being sovereign God is perfectly just.

… Being filled with love, God the Son responds to the call of the perfect justice within God Himself by, in a sense, raising His hand and saying, “I WILL. I’LL PAY! I’LL SUFFER AND DIE!”

God the Father, being filled with love, says, “I LOVINGLY ACCEPT YOUR OFFER, AND SO LOVINGLY OFFER YOU TO SUFFER TERRIBLY AND DIE!”

So, the answser to the question in this thread is, “Christ had to die because to create us and then love us generated a requirement, by God’s Own perfect justice, that God pay for this by suffering and dying.”

That’s a pretty impressive answer, Esquire0130.

 

[a_burger]

for jcrichton

Before Jesus died and became the perfect sacrifice to forgive sins animals were scrificed. According to the sacred scriptures animal sacrifice would only cover sins until the perfect sacrifice came. Before Jesus Christ, who was fully God and fully man, died the soul went to a place called Sheoul. Sheoul was into the earth and was divided by a large chasm. On one side were the people who were good and the other side were the people who were bad. Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazurus who were divided by the chasm in Sheoul. Lazurus was on the good side, which was also called Abraham’s Bosom. Lazurus was poor and begged for food and was ignored by Lazurus. Lazurus was on the bad side. He begged for the sweat off the brow of Lazurus. The good side was awaiting the perfect sacrifice that would forgive their sins and not just cover them.

Now remember that Jesus descended into hell after he died. That’s part of the Apostle’s Creed. Also remember that many of the righteous people who were dead were raised from the dead immediately at the time of Jesus’ death. Jesus descended into hell to release those of the good side of Sheoul. Those souls were then allowed to enter heaven with that perfectly white robe that was cleansed by the blood of Christ.

There is also strong evidence that Jesus preached the Gospel to those who lived before the flood on the bad side of Sheoul. They had the same opportunity as we have today.

Come quickly Lord Jesus! We can hear the hoofbeats of the four horsemen. Rescue us from the wrath to come.