Help me explain to my mom how we are saved?

[Della]

How about an atheist who accepts God on his deathbed?

Even in that case some groundwork must have been laid. Such a person had to have heard the Gospel message to repent as some point in his life. Most people don’t repent on their deathbeds “cold,” but realize, now that they are dying, that the Gospel is true and so rightfully avail themselves of God’s mercy. Of course, no one should presume to have such a sudden conversion at the last minute. Not only is it imprudent, it’s the serious sin of presumption.

 

[thistle]

Even in that case some groundwork must have been laid. Such a person had to have heard the Gospel message to repent as some point in his life. Most people don’t repent on their deathbeds “cold,” but realize, now that they are dying, that the Gospel is true and so rightfully avail themselves of God’s mercy. Of course, no one should presume to have such a sudden conversion at the last minute. Not only is it imprudent, it’s the serious sin of presumption.

We can’t definitively say that. Only God knows.

 

[Della]

We can’t definitively say that. Only God knows.

Of course. But in most cases God doesn’t call someone to repentance out of the blue, with no prep of any kind. God can do whatever he pleases, but most of us in Western societies hear about the Gospel at some point in our lives and so are responsible for what we know:

Rom.10[14] But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

Jesus sent the Apostles out to preach, to teach, and to baptize. If that weren’t the ordinary means of hearing the Gospel and coming to repentance he wouldn’t have bothered.

 

[thistle]

Of course. ** But in most cases God doesn’t call someone to repentance out of the blue, with no prep of any kind.** God can do whatever he pleases, but most of us in Western societies hear about the Gospel at some point in our lives and so are responsible for what we know:

Rom.10[14] But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?

Jesus sent the Apostles out to preach, to teach, and to baptize. If that weren’t the ordinary means of hearing the Gospel and coming to repentance he wouldn’t have bothered.

How do you know that? We don’t know the mind of God. Just because the ordinary means of hearing the Gospel is as you have said and with which I agree, God is not bound by that.

Remember the criminal on the Cross that was saved just before death.

 

[Della]

How do you know that? We don’t know the mind of God. Just because the ordinary means of hearing the Gospel is as you have said and with which I agree, God is not bound by that.

Remember the criminal on the Cross that was saved just before death.

Because of Church teaching with sound scriptural support. This isn’t a guessing game, you know. God has given us enough information to know such things.

 

[thistle]

Because of Church teaching with sound scriptural support. This isn’t a guessing game, you know. God has given us enough information to know such things.

Where is it in Scripture or the CCC that states God cannot allow someone the chance to repent and turn to God and be saved on their deathbed without previously being touched somehow during their life.

The Church already teaches that God is not bound by the Sacraments. It seems to me that you are trying to bind God.

 

[guanophore]

Where is it in Scripture or the CCC that states God cannot allow someone the chance to repent and turn to God and be saved on their deathbed without previously being touched somehow during their life.

The Church already teaches that God is not bound by the Sacraments. It seems to me that you are trying to bind God.

No, it is that God calls to us throughout our lives, and His grace constantly draws us. For many, when one finally comes to repentance, it is the culmination of years of prevenient grace.

None of that, of course, precludes the once for all experience or a last minute experience.

We make some assumptions, to about St. Dismas. We don’t know if he may have been baptized by John, or sat listening to Jesus. How did he know that “this man has done nothing wrong”? He had some experience or knowledge prior to that last minute expression of repentance.

 

[Della]

Where is it in Scripture or the CCC that states God cannot allow someone the chance to repent and turn to God and be saved on their deathbed without previously being touched somehow during their life.

I never wrote that. You are arguing against something I never stated. I merely stated that is it not usual for someone to have such an experience without some prior knowledge of the Gospel. No where did I state that it is impossible for people to have death bed conversions. I’m sure there are many. What we were discussing is people who have never heard the Gospel suddenly coming to some kind of revelation all on their own–having never heard a thing about Christ. That rarely happens.

{quote]The Church already teaches that God is not bound by the Sacraments. It seems to me that you are trying to bind God.

I never wrote that God cannot do what he wishes. Indeed, I stated just the opposite. Again, you are arguing against the wind here since I never stated the things you are saying I did. Please read what I write instead of reading into my words what I have not written. Thank you.