Help me learn the Catholic way of salvation

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Gem said:
Yes, we are the hands of Christ in this world. He uses us to spread His love and bring His kingdom. Yet, we are not puppets either. We have free will and we can choose to do God’s will or not. If we do any “great” thing, it is to God’s glory and we receive His strength to persevere. Yet it is always in our power to say “no, I will serve myself”.
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I believe the views and variation of free will is quite broad in the Catholic Church considering Saint Augustine is still received as being okay, correct?
 
We receive salvation by faith i.e. belief, " yet even the demons believe and tremble. "
Look, imagine that your father, or whoever, is going to give you a large screen TV.
He brings it to your house, and says here is this TV, a gift for you. You will most likely accept it gratefully and happily. Now you could just let it sit on the tv stand, unplugged. It probably wouldn’t be very useful to you or enjoyable. You have to plug it in, turn on the power, set up display, channels, etc…, put on a good channel that you like and is useful, and watch it.
3 things)
  1. if your father never offered the TV to you, could you use and enjoy it?
  2. if you did not accept the TV, could you use and enjoy it?
  3. if you did not set up the TV, could you use and enjoy it?
In this metaphor:
The father is God
the TV is salvation
number 1 ( above ) is grace
number 2 is faith
number 3 is works.
 
traillius said:
We receive salvation by faith i.e. belief, " yet even the demons believe and tremble. "
Look, imagine that your father, or whoever, is going to give you a large screen TV.
He brings it to your house, and says here is this TV, a gift for you. You will most likely accept it gratefully and happily. Now you could just let it sit on the tv stand, unplugged. It probably wouldn’t be very useful to you or enjoyable. You have to plug it in, turn on the power, set up display, channels, etc…, put on a good channel that you like and is useful, and watch it.
3 things)
  1. if your father never offered the TV to you, could you use and enjoy it?
  2. if you did not accept the TV, could you use and enjoy it?
  3. if you did not set up the TV, could you use and enjoy it?
In this metaphor:
The father is God
the TV is salvation
number 1 ( above ) is grace
number 2 is faith
number 3 is works.
Click to expand...
All the Father gives to the Son will be saved. There is more than an offer by the Father, but rather a chosen given to the Son to redeem from my reading of the Scriptures.

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6
 
2nd_Adam said:
Is it correct to say that Baptismal regenartion (conversion through the sacrament of baptism) is the official position with exceptions (baptism of desire)? Does the Catholic Church teach that Protestants are converted (united to Christ) at their water baptism, even though we do not believe in the doctrine of baptismal regeneration in general?
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I don’t think conversion and regeneration are quite the same thing. One can be converted in the sense of believing in the good news of Jesus Christ, but regeneration does not take place until baptism where original and all committed sin is forgiven and the Holy Spirit indwells the person.

Yes, even though many protestants see baptism as symbolic only, the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and indeed cannot repeat it. If that person converts, they make a confession and receive confirmation and the Eucharist, but they are not re-baptized. We believe baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, as belonging to God, and cannot be repeated.
 
2nd_Adam said:
I believe the views and variation of free will is quite broad in the Catholic Church considering Saint Augustine is still received as being okay, correct?
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I think you are refering to Augustine and predestination? I don’t know enough about his views to accurately comment on him. But I will say that there is a difference between predestination in the sense of God knowing what will happen and God willing what will happen.

God exists outside of time and already knows all who will be saved, but He does not compel us to love Him or do His will. What kind of love would that be?
 
Gem said:
I don’t think conversion and regeneration are quite the same thing. One can be converted in the sense of believing in the good news of Jesus Christ, but regeneration does not take place until baptism where original and all committed sin is forgiven and the Holy Spirit indwells the person.

Yes, even though many protestants see baptism as symbolic only, the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and indeed cannot repeat it. If that person converts, they make a confession and receive confirmation and the Eucharist, but they are not re-baptized. We believe baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, as belonging to God, and cannot be repeated.
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Since there is such mix views comming from Protestantism, as well as other churches like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints… which Protestant baptism and other non-Catholic church baptism are recogonized by the Cathoic Church as being valid. I do find it interesting that there is a distinction made between conversion and regeneration.
 
Gem said:
I think you are refering to Augustine and predestination? I don’t know enough about his views to accurately comment on him. But I will say that there is a difference between predestination in the sense of God knowing what will happen and God willing what will happen.

God exists outside of time and already knows all who will be saved, but He does not compel us to love Him or do His will. What kind of love would that be?
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If I understand it, the Catholic Church allows a wide range of views on predestination.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Since there is such mix views comming from Protestantism, as well as other churches like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints… which Protestant baptism and other non-Catholic church baptism are recogonized by the Cathoic Church as being valid. I do find it interesting that there is a distinction made between conversion and regeneration.
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Anyone who is baptized with water (any form) “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” is validly baptized.

Yes, baptisms in other churches where different “formulas” (words) are used to baptize may be considered invalid.
 
Gem said:
Anyone who is baptized with water (any form) “in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” is validly baptized.

Yes, baptisms in other churches where different “formulas” (words) are used to baptize may be considered invalid.
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I just attended a church meeting with the elders of my church who were trying to determine issues regarding orthodoxy and who is allowed to teach. We share the same creeds which defines the doctrine of the Trinity. But when a Protestant denomination strays from the orthodox view of the Trinty and still baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit… does this still count as a valid baptism? Let’s just say this unorthodox view believed by this elder was unorthodox, and could also be considered heresy when compared to the church creeds.
 
2nd_Adam said:
All the Father gives to the Son will be saved. There is more than an offer by the Father, but rather a chosen given to the Son to redeem from my reading of the Scriptures.

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6
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So , what, God forces some people to accept his gift of salvation? what happened to free will?
 
traillius said:
So , what, God forces some people to accept his gift of salvation? what happened to free will?
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I don’t believe Scripture teaches free will in the way most people think. Consider this verse:

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1
 
Either you are saying that God forces some to be saved
or you are saying that the gift of salvation is not made available to all, but only some.
 
traillius said:
Either you are saying that God forces some to be saved
or you are saying that the gift of salvation is not made available to all, but only some.
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I don’t think it’s that simple when we consider all of Scripture of the topic of election and chosen. What do you believe Jesus is saying with:

Matthew 22:14

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
 
The gift of salvation is freely offered to all humans, but forced on none. Not all humans will accept the gift.
 
traillius said:
The gift of salvation is freely offered to all humans, but forced on none. Not all humans will accept the gift.
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That’s not wrestling with the Scriptures. Who are the called, and who are the chosen in the verse? Please feel free to take that verse in context with the surrounding verses. I think the verse also needs to be understood in context of the entire Bible.
 
2nd_Adam said:
We have much in common since we know that salvation is by grace alone. I believe the sacraments are infused as compared to imputed to us, but within the context of someone already justified through imputation.
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oki 🙂 just to add, the Catholic Church would say that we were ‘born again’ through Baptism ,and are in a state of “salvation” if you will, when we’re in a state of grace… when we’ve willingly walked away from God (mortal sin) we’ve cut ourselves off from grace and are not on our way to Heaven - unless we repent. God of course does draw us to repentance. So this makes it possible for anyone to fall away, but not very easy, cause God will keep on drawing them back…

we also believe that justification, not only sanctification (we don’t make such a distinction between the two) is infused, because it involves a transformation (by grace)
Since we both believe that salvation is by grace alone, we can see that salvation is through the merits of Christ alone, correct?
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yes, salvation is through His merits, the difference is just in how we believe the merits are applied to us 🙂
many Protestants would say that His merits “cover” our sinfulness…Catholicism would say that through His merits we are given the grace to actually become perfect, again by Him. So that is why in Heaven we do not sin any more.

(in other words - Catholics believe Christ’s merits transform us, Protestants believe justification happens when His merits “cover” our sins. We believe the sins are washed away, not covered.)

God bless
 
2nd_Adam said:
That’s not wrestling with the Scriptures. Who are the called, and who are the chosen in the verse? Please feel free to take that verse in context with the surrounding verses. I think the verse also needs to be understood in context of the entire Bible.
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The called are those to whom the gospel is preached, hopefully all of humanity.
The chosen are those who follow and believe, and are chosen based on whether they follow and believe.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Okay, does the Roman Catholic Church officially teach that mankind is sovereign in salvation and determines his own fate?
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I don’t know what you mean, but the Church teaches that God calls everyone to Himself, and some say ‘yes’, while others say ‘no’. Why this happens is a mystery, but we believe God gave us free will to accept or reject Him. Of course, acceptance is possible with grace. Predestination means that God already sees who will be saved, since He’s outside of time, but we disagree with the Calvinists that He chose to save some people and chose others for hell… the Bible says He wants everyone to come to repentance and is not willing that any should perish
 
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