Help me learn the Catholic way of salvation

[2nd_Adam]

I would say it is shared theology to this point.

I would agree with the differences you note here. But I would mention that for adult baptism, we believe hearing and believing is also necessary, but the actual infusion of the new life of God occurs at Baptism.

I would say this is pretty much shared theology – altho might need to do some clarification on what is encompassed by “new nature”. We do not believe that concupiscence disappears.

Please help me understand what you mean by “we do not believe that concupiscence disappears”? I know God gives us means of grace in our Christian walk. The Spirit dwells in the believer, uniting to us to one body. The Christian life is one of struggle caused by the remaining flesh in us, the world system, and Satan as our enemy. I believe Paul’s account in Romans 6 with struggling is the universal Christian experience. Maybe I am trying to explore the divine role of the church in providing means of grace for the believer? Again, our understanding of the church is different, because I do not limit the church to the Catholic Church.

 

[Nita]

Here’s your statement again: “And I agree, God in His sovereignty, chooses whom He will bestow a particular grace on”.

The kind and amount of grace is applied sovereignly, according to the good pleasure of God independent of anything in the creature, correct?

I guess I’m missing something. Do you believe in free will? Or is that your point, that we do not have free will? Or that God overrides it so to speak, and forces us to choose to live contrary to what we will.

Re “independent of anything in the creature”. Since God knows exactly what is in that creature, it’s hard to see how that would not be an aspect present to Him (when He sovereignly chooses to bestow grace according to His good pleasure).

I do have another question - a little off the topic of this post. You obviously believe in adult conversion only – or at least only after the age of being able to understand the gospel. What age is the critical age for conversion. In other words, a child born and reared in a Protestant denomination with that belief – when does it become necessary for him to convert so that should he die he would not go to hell. For example, a grade schooler or high schooler who has heard the gospel, but just isn’t quite sure yet - so doesn’t make a profession of faith (or whatever his denomination requires). I have asked this question before, but never really got a clear answer.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I guess I’m missing something. Do you believe in free will? Or is that your point, that we do not have free will? Or that God overrides it so to speak, and forces us to choose to live contrary to what we will.

Re “independent of anything in the creature”. Since God knows exactly what is in that creature, it’s hard to see how that would not be an aspect present to Him (when He sovereignly chooses to bestow grace according to His good pleasure).

I do have another question - a little off the topic of this post. You obviously believe in adult conversion only – or at least only after the age of being able to understand the gospel. What age is the critical age for conversion. In other words, a child born and reared in a Protestant denomination with that belief – when does it become necessary for him to convert so that should he die he would not go to hell. For example, a grade schooler or high schooler who has heard the gospel, but just isn’t quite sure yet - so doesn’t make a profession of faith (or whatever his denomination requires). I have asked this question before, but never really got a clear answer.

I am not saying that man is not accountable, but our wills are never really free since our wills or either in bondage to our sin nature (universal), or our wills our inclined to righteousness (Spirit of God in us). The will is never neutral, without influence.

I actually believe John the Baptist was converted (born again) in his mother’s womb. I believe 1 Cor 7 does teach that children born in a household of faith are in a different spiritual condition than those born in a non-believing household. Children of households of faith are sanctified and clean, but not necessarily converted. Infants and children can be converted and born again at any age by the grace of God. Check out the chapter and share your understanding of 1 Cor 7. I do not believe in decisional regeneration, that by doing a sinner’s prayer and walking the isle saves a sinner.

 

[Nita]

Please help me understand what you mean by “we do not believe that concupiscence disappears”? I know God gives us means of grace in our Christian walk. The Spirit dwells in the believer, uniting to us to one body. The Christian life is one of struggle caused by the remaining flesh in us, the world system, and Satan as our enemy. I believe Paul’s account in Romans 6 with struggling is the universal Christian experience. Maybe I am trying to explore the divine role of the church in providing means of grace for the believer?

Concupiscence refers to the disordered passions or desires that resulted in our human nature after Adam’s sin. They incline us, or tempt us to sin. They are not sins in themselves, but are temptations to sin. What you, like Paul, refer to as the flesh with which we have to struggle.

We speak of a triple concupiscence sometimes. This comes from the passage in 1 John 2:16 “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.”

Again, our understanding of the church is different, because I do not limit the church to the Catholic Church.

Neither do we if by “church” you mean all those who will be saved and spend eternity with Our Lord and by “Catholic Church” you mean only those who are registered members of the Catholic Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Concupiscence refers to the disordered passions or desires that resulted in our human nature after Adam’s sin. They incline us, or tempt us to sin. They are not sins in themselves, but are temptations to sin. What you, like Paul, refer to as the flesh with which we have to struggle.

We speak of a triple concupiscence sometimes. This comes from the passage in 1 John 2:16 “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.”

Neither do we if by “church” you mean all those who will be saved and spend eternity with Our Lord and by “Catholic Church” you mean only those who are registered members of the Catholic Church.

Okay, so you do acknowledge a Protestant understanding of an invisible church in a sense… those who will spend eternity with our Lord. For instance, becoming a visible member of the Roman Catholic Church, or Orthodox Church, or a Protestant Church does not mean that you will be in the eternal church. Jesus clearly taught about the sheeps and goats in the visible church.

 

[4EverHis]

It seems that Catholics see salvation to be a cooperative effort between God and man at all stages of salvation, correct? Would it be fair to say that salvation for the Catholic would be something like 50% God’s doing and 50% man’s cooperation with God? Or the percentages can be 99% God and 1% man in the process of salvation. However, in a Catholic way of salvation, God needs our help to save us? I see salvation to be a sovereign act of God sending His Son to rescue us from the curse of the law, saving all that He intended to save. It is a rescue mission of being 100% successful. However, it God willed to save all mankind, we have to ask the question why God is not able to accomplish His will. Is man’s free will more powerful than God’s will?

I believe that salvation involves our cooperation with God’s grace, but it’s not 50/50 or 99/1 percent… I don’t think it could be put in a percentage at all. I also believe that God wills to save all mankind…not that He wills to save only a few. The whole idea that He chooses some for Heaven and others for hell seems to go against everything we know about God and who He is… I think that people going to hell doesn’t mean that God failed, - not at all, He did what He chose to do - die for our salvation. He is not responsible if people choose to reject Him… that’s the way I see it.

I think that in Creation, etc, God only has to will it and it happens. But that is because it only depends on His own choice. But salvation requires us to accept His grace…and so our choices are involved in it too. What God does, is He gives us grace, so that we’re able to choose Him, and so that we’d understand it is Him calling us.

Please help me understand what you mean by “we do not believe that concupiscence disappears”? I know God gives us means of grace in our Christian walk. The Spirit dwells in the believer, uniting to us to one body. The Christian life is one of struggle caused by the remaining flesh in us, the world system, and Satan as our enemy. I believe Paul’s account in Romans 6 with struggling is the universal Christian experience. Maybe I am trying to explore the divine role of the church in providing means of grace for the believer? Again, our understanding of the church is different, because I do not limit the church to the Catholic Church.

concupiscence means that we still have temptations to sin… there are still ‘disordered passions’ as Nita said

Okay, so you do acknowledge a Protestant understanding of an invisible church in a sense… those who will spend eternity with our Lord. For instance, becoming a visible member of the Roman Catholic Church, or Orthodox Church, or a Protestant Church does not mean that you will be in the eternal church. Jesus clearly taught about the sheeps and goats in the visible church.

we believe that the Church is one and visible…the Catholic Church. Non Catholic Christians are imperfectly united to it through their baptism, Catholics are perfectly united and in communion with it. So the Church is visible, but has an invisible component - which perhaps was not supposed to be…cause there were not supposed to be any divisions in Christianity.

But everyone who is in Heaven, is in the Church even if they weren’t perfectly united to it on earth.

there is teh Church triumphant (heaven) and the Church militant (on earth)…it’s the same one Church, with Christ as the Head, but present in two different places and in two different ways. We are all united by the Holy Spirit though, which makes communion of Saints possible…

God bless

 

[Nita]

Okay, so you do acknowledge a Protestant understanding of an invisible church in a sense… those who will spend eternity with our Lord. For instance, becoming a visible member of the Roman Catholic Church, or Orthodox Church, or a Protestant Church does not mean that you will be in the eternal church. Jesus clearly taught about the sheeps and goats in the visible church.

Again, if you’re speaking in the sense of who will be in heaven.
Being a visible member of the Catholic Church does not assure one of salvation; and our Church has never taught that it did.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus established a Church. In Matthew 16, He calls it His Church ("…and upon this rock I will build My Church). That Church (capital “C”) is the Catholic Church.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, if you’re speaking in the sense of who will be in heaven.
Being a visible member of the Catholic Church does not assure one of salvation; and our Church has never taught that it did.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus established a Church. In Matthew 16, He calls it His Church ("…and upon this rock I will build My Church). That Church (capital “C”) is the Catholic Church.

That’s interesting since I know the Reformers wanted to Reform the Church as compared to split from it. I wish I knew more about the schism of the east and the west too. I do believe that Scriptures speak about a remnant in the Church too. I do believe the OT Church institution missed Jesus Christ, with the exception of the remnant. When I look at the Book of Acts of the first century NT Church, I do not see a great resemblance of the various churches in 21st Christianity that was revealed in the Book of Acts.

 

[Nita]

We’d love to have you join us 2nd Adam. There is such depth in the Catholic Church. And Scripture - it just contains so much that relates to our teachings; gems that are missed by those unfamiliar with Catholic teachings.
If you’re interested in finding out the teachings of the Catholic Church, I would recommend picking up a “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. You’ll find it is full of Scripture references. It’s available online ( vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ), but I find it much easier to read a book than a computer screen.

 

[TristanCross]

Religion: Catholic and Protestant

Excuse me what?

 

[2nd_Adam]

We’d love to have you join us 2nd Adam. There is such depth in the Catholic Church. And Scripture - it just contains so much that relates to our teachings; gems that are missed by those unfamiliar with Catholic teachings.
If you’re interested in finding out the teachings of the Catholic Church, I would recommend picking up a “Catechism of the Catholic Church”. You’ll find it is full of Scripture references. It’s available online ( vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM ), but I find it much easier to read a book than a computer screen.

Thanks for the invite! I am familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I used to own a book copy that I purchased about 10 years ago. I also had the Companion to it too. I really was intrigued about the Catholic Church when the first Catholic and Evangelical Together document was published.