Help me out here

[davidv]

My reasoning tells me God will probably be fairly liberal about who is saved and who isn’t. I believe this because I can’t see Him sending someone to hell for living in accordance with their conscience, even if their conscience never led them to Rome.

Why do you think God “sends” anyone to hell?

 

[EmeraldWings]

My reasoning tells me God will probably be fairly liberal about who is saved and who isn’t. I believe this because I can’t see Him sending someone to hell for living in accordance with their conscience, even if their conscience never led them to Rome.

God doesn’t send anyone to hell, we choose where we go, but who are we to force our way into heaven? if we want to enter Gods house, shouldn’t we at least try and become acquainted with Him? shouldn’t we be gracious? i think people nowadays are to spoiled…to use to getting things their way…so that they are to proud to do things Gods way, even though it is what’s best, and founded entirely on love, and the answer to true peace and joy…God is willing to be our father and our best friend, but who will be Gods friend through and through? of course God doesn’t think of things that way, He only thinks of us, but He certainly deserves such loyalty and devotion,
and you know what, we really don’t know what God does with those who tried to live a good life and did what they truly believed to be right, God is all fair after all, and we do not know if people such as that go to hell, we just don’t know…
but nevertheless, we do know better, and so we must do what we can, there are no excuses, i pray everyday because it’s something i can do that i know helps, you just have to do what you can, and what else can you do?

 

[paul_c]

OK.

So Christ died for our sins. Somehow his death saved us (from what I’m not quite sure). But I don’t get the connection.

How did Christ’s death and resurrection “save us” from whatever we needed saving from? If God wanted us to be saved, why drag Christ into it? Seems to me that with one wave of His mighty hand would take care of the whole problem. Why all the drama?

You are a bit lost judging from your posts, but don’t dispair. You have come to a good place to help you get your bearings.

Jesus death and resurrection work on a number of levels. As discussed by some of the other posters, it reconciled mankind to God as a penitential act of ultimate obedience for man’s prior disobedience.

But perhaps more importantly for your needs, Jesus was showing us how to love unconditionally. He died for our benefit, even though we were the ones to kill him. In his mission on Earth, he showed us through word and deed what was expected of us. This culminated in him giving up all that he had (his life) for us. We need to do the same.

You see, the only thing that truly brings happiness is love. And love is doing something for someone without expecting anything in return. The best relationships are those where both parties willing give of themselves without worrying about repayment. That is the kind of relationship we need with God. On his part, he gave us everything we have and we of course have nothing to offer him so his love is perfect. On our part, to be truly happy, we need to give fully of ourselves. When we can do that, we will be ready for heaven. So you see, Jesus death was necessary to show us how to do that and to demonstrate to us what lengths God is willing to go to bring us to him.

By the way, in regard to free will, We have the ultimate choice. We can choose to love (center ourselves on others) and ultimately enter heaven or we can choose to be selfcentered and ultimately be condemned to hell. This is the only choice that really matters and it is the reason why we are born: to make that choice.

 

[paul_c]

You mean reversal of whole body necrotic cell death three days post mortem seems a bit too dramatic for your tastes?
Well, you may have a teensy point there.

Well, Strawberry Jam, sometimes it takes a bit of theatrics to make people take note. If the events weren’t extraordinary, they wouldn’t have change the course of history like they did.

 

[paul_c]

I was told by a pastor that one of the other reasons Christ died on the cross was to show man-kind that he loves us so much that he wanted to suffer with us. Is there any validity to this?

Well, Truthseeker, life is a test to see whether we will choose heaven or hell. Some of those tests in life involve suffering, and some involve joy, comfort and success. How we react in these different circumstances lay bear our soul. For some, success is the harder test. How many famous and rich people self destruct as an example. Nevertheless, it is clear that Jesus showed us how to bear up to tremendous suffering and continue to love. That point by your pastor is a valid one.

I also have issues with the redemption through crucifixion method. It was previously stated that god couldn’t wave his hand and save us because it would have been a violation of our free will, but if this is the only concern, god could have simply found a way to forgive man without dying. However, he did so this had to have been necessary.

Well, Jesus suffered for us, both as expiation for our sins and to provide an example of how to love that we can emulate.

I have an issue with free will. How much free will do we actually possess? We came into this world against our will, and we have to endure it against our will.

Truthseeker. God gave you everything you have. He gave you life, grace, reason, free will, conscience, skills and everything else. Do you understand the purpose of life: it is a chance to choose whether you will love unconditionally and enter an eternity of bliss, doing that forever, or whether you will be selfcentered, carrying only for yourself, and suffering unhappiness for ever in hell. In fact, your free will extends to the only thing that matters: you get to decide whether you will love or not and that choice is one of heaven or hell. This is not to be taken lightly. If you just remember, as you go through each life test, whether it be success or failure, joy or anguish, love or hate, that if you respond with the love of God and others, you will be rewarded with heaven, then it will all be bearable.
And remember, that success is as difficult a test as failure. How many people who are successful in worldly things, end up in rehab? or end up egotistically believing that they no longer need others or God and fail their ultimate test of love? Keep that in mind as well…

 

[truthseeker32]

Why do you think God “sends” anyone to hell?

Because I have a hard time believing our final destination is based solely on our personal choice. Therefore I think god will have a hand in deciding who enters the kingdom and who doesn’t.

 

[paul_c]

Because I have a hard time believing our final destination is based solely on our personal choice. Therefore I think god will have a hand in deciding who enters the kingdom and who doesn’t.

I think that God calls everyone to himself. Some answer the call, others don’t. God loves us all, but he also respects our autonomy…

 

[davidv]

Because I have a hard time believing our final destination is based solely on our personal choice. Therefore I think god will have a hand in deciding who enters the kingdom and who doesn’t.

Why do you find that (bolded abover) hard to believe?

 

[cooterhein]

OK.

So Christ died for our sins. Somehow his death saved us (from what I’m not quite sure). But I don’t get the connection.

The idea is that Jesus can save you from the punishment that you’d otherwise receive for your sins.

How did Christ’s death and resurrection “save us” from whatever we needed saving from?

Jesus acted as the perfect substitute who took the punishment that you deserved. God couldn’t just wave it away because He’s perfectly just and therefore must take some form of required action against sin. He couldn’t exact it on any substitute but God Himself because it would be unjust for God to use anyone else.

If God wanted us to be saved, why drag Christ into it?

He had to. There was no other way, except for God to let all of humanity perish. This was the only alternative, for reasons previously explained.

Seems to me that with one wave of His mighty hand would take care of the whole problem.

No, He couldn’t- not without doing something that God has defined as an abomination. The phrase “God can do anything” is slightly inaccurate- it would probably be better to say “God is capable of doing anything that is possible, to the exclusion of absurdities, provided that it is not sinful.” If God had absolved humanity of guilt with a mighty wave, it would not have been an absurdity, but it would have been sinful on His part. That’s why He didn’t do it.

 

[fhansen]

The idea is that Jesus can save you from the punishment that you’d otherwise receive for your sins.

Jesus acted as the perfect substitute who took the punishment that you deserved. God couldn’t just wave it away because He’s perfectly just and therefore must take some form of required action against sin. He couldn’t exact it on any substitute but God Himself because it would be unjust for God to use anyone else.

Could you elaborate on why it would be unjust to use anyone else? I mean, wouldn’t it be just-maybe even more just- to punish the sinners themselves, even if He chose not to because of His love and mercy. The Church teaches somewhere that God’s love and mercy trumps His justice-and so Jesus’ sacrifice would be the supreme expression of that love. The Atonement can be quite hard to understand so maybe I’m just missing something here.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

My reasoning tells me God will probably be fairly liberal about who is saved and who isn’t. I believe this because I can’t see Him sending someone to hell for living in accordance with their conscience, even if their conscience never led them to Rome.

What you are saying is if you were God, you would not send someone to hell for living in accordance with their conscience. We can’t presume to know what God is thinking.

By the way, in regard to free will, We have the ultimate choice. We can choose to love (center ourselves on others) and ultimately enter heaven or we can choose to be selfcentered and ultimately be condemned to hell. This is the only choice that really matters and it is the reason why we are born: to make that choice.

Which goes back to what I said previously. We can chose God’s way or we can chose our way. But there are major consequences if we don’t chose God’s way. So “free will” becomes a moot point.

The phrase “God can do anything” is slightly inaccurate- it would probably be better to say “God is capable of doing anything that is possible, to the exclusion of absurdities, provided that it is not sinful.” If God had absolved humanity of guilt with a mighty wave, it would not have been an absurdity, but it would have been sinful on His part. That’s why He didn’t do it.

Matthew 19:26, among other passages, say that “with God all things are possible.” Absurdities and the like fall under the category of “all things.” Either He can do anything or he can’t.

 

[paul_c]

Which goes back to what I said previously. We can chose God’s way or we can chose our way. But there are major consequences if we don’t chose God’s way. So “free will” becomes a moot point.

No, we still have a choice and probably more choose to do things their own way regardless of the consequences than those that do God’s will…

 

[Lost_Sheep]

No, we still have a choice and probably more choose to do things their own way regardless of the consequences than those that do God’s will…

True, but such people either don’t care about the consequences, don’t realize how serious they are, or they are blissfully unaware of them. Those of us who understand and appreciate the consequences should know it is God’s way “or else.”

Suppose you witness your best friend committing a murder. The police tell you to either rat out your friend, or go to prison as an accessory. Since going to prison is out of the question and not something you want to do, you effectively have no choice but to testify against your friend.

Same with God. If you don’t want to face the consequences (I sure don’t) then effectively my “free will” has gone out the window.

 

[paul_c]

True, but such people either don’t care about the consequences, don’t realize how serious they are, or they are blissfully unaware of them. Those of us who understand and appreciate the consequences should know it is God’s way “or else.”

Suppose you witness your best friend committing a murder. The police tell you to either rat out your friend, or go to prison as an accessory. Since going to prison is out of the question and not something you want to do, you effectively have no choice but to testify against your friend.

Same with God. If you don’t want to face the consequences (I sure don’t) then effectively my “free will” has gone out the window.

No, your free will has not gone out the window. You are just making the right choice for you. Other people don’t really believe and hence, their choice is to do self centered things that benefit them now since they don’t believe there are long term consequences. They are both choices and ultimately that choice begins with whether to believe in Christ and his Church or not. If you believe, you will do those things that are required to go to heaven. If you don’t believe, you will not bother…

 

[StrawberryJam]

No, your free will has not gone out the window. You are just making the right choice for you. Other people don’t really believe and hence, their choice is to do self centered things that benefit them now since they don’t believe there are long term consequences. They are both choices and ultimately that choice begins with whether to believe in Christ and his Church or not. If you believe, you will do those things that are required to go to heaven. If you don’t believe, you will not bother…

You claim:
People who don’t really believe do self centered things.

Your statement here is completely fallacious.

 

[paul_c]

You claim:
People who don’t really believe do self centered things.

Your statement here is completely fallacious.

You might be arguing that non-beleivers can be moral and I believe that is true.

What I am arguing is that IF you actually believe in your heart that your actions will lead you to heaven or hell, you will make choices accordingly (to do God’s will). But if you don’t believe it matters, your motivation to do God’s will disappears.

Now, you might argue with me that there are other motivating factors to act morally. I will not disagree with that. In fact, I believe that God gives every person a conscience that leads them to do good works, regardless of whether they believe it matters to their internal salvation of not. But the grace to do those good works builds in the believer and makes it easier to do them…

 

[StrawberryJam]

You might be arguing that non-beleivers can be moral and I believe that is true.

What I am arguing is that IF you actually believe in your heart that your actions will lead you to heaven or hell, you will make choices accordingly (to do God’s will). But if you don’t believe it matters, your motivation to do God’s will disappears.

Now, you might argue with me that there are other motivating factors to act morally. I will not disagree with that. In fact, I believe that God gives every person a conscience that leads them to do good works, regardless of whether they believe it matters to their internal salvation of not. But the grace to do those good works builds in the believer and makes it easier to do them…

I will accept that Paul. I think it is a very reasonable position you take.