Help me please.

[Morwenna]

Pick up a copy of C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity and read it. If you’re like me, you’ll end up re-reading it several times. It’s a powerful book!

Lewis made the journey from atheism to Christianity by logic alone, not faith. He fought against belief in God all the way, and when he finally felt that he had no choice but to accept that God was real (due to the weight of evidence he had amassed), he knelt to pray for the first time “‘the most reluctant convert in the whole of England.”

Please, look for this book at your nearest library or bookstore. You won’t regret it.

 

[ConallCernach]

Which god? There are thousands of gods that have been written about, and many have conflicting rules for their followers. By living your life according to one god, you are blaspheming against a thousand others.

This is only true if one cannot philosophically address polytheism vs. monotheism. From there the person must determine which, if any beliefs coinciding with the result of the determination of monotheism or polytheism, etc.

An atheist or agnostic does not implicitly believe in a non-god alternative. When discussing the start of the universe, it is possible (and very common) to disbelieve “the christian god did it”, and disbelive e.g. “multiverse theory”, and say “I don’t know”. Effectively holding no belief on this issue.

My point is that, upon seeing the available evidence, a decision does not have to be made. It is perfectly valid (and most rational imo) to say “There is not enough evidence at the moment to conclude that any of the proposed possibilities are true”

It is unfortunate that you have taken the position of many. From the sounds of it, it appears that you haven’t truly done a search into where to move from Agnosticism. Agnosticism isn’t a belief until it has been earnestly worked out. Aside from truly working agnosticism out, it is and remains a point of transition. It is just as easy to say “it is impossible to determine which religion is truth” as it is to say “it is impossible to categorize all the types of fish”. Neither provide any self-furthering in terms growth. The only way that a person can speak about the difficulty of categorizing all the fish in the sea, is by trying to categorize the fish. If you do not proceed with this, how can you know that it is impossible to categorize all the fish?

Pax

 

[tm30]

I don’t believe that the universe has natural origins.

An atheist is not required to believe that the universe started via a natural process.

What other process is there but natural or supernatural?

You are setting up a false choice here. You are saying that a person must choose between:

(1) Absolute 100% certainty that the universe was created by a divine entity
(2) Absolute 100% certainty that the universe began without the action of a divine entity

This choice does not need to me made. A person can say “I don’t know”. I do this.

Then you’re not an atheist. Unless you can unequivocally decide that this was not created by the Supreme Being, you can’t really identify as an atheist.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Then you’re not an atheist. Unless you can unequivocally decide that this was not created by the Supreme Being, you can’t really identify as an atheist.

Correct. And an avowed atheist can not escape exposing himself as a person of supreme arrogance and hubris by the tacit declaration of infallability and omniscience in knowing with certainty that there is no God. Thus an atheist makes himself into a god - albeit a temporal and transient god who he also can not see and recognize. How ironic and how blinding hubris is…

James

 

[tm30]

I don’t believe that the universe started via supernatural/divine action.

Then, by default, you must believe it was a natural process experienced nowhere else in all the annals of natural history and research - i.e., self-generation. That you presumably lean toward this belief is more incredible than believing in a Supreme Being because there’s absolutlely no example of nature being its own first cause, but logic dictates that if everything was created by something else, there had to be a First Creator. i.e., your position is a bigger leap of faith than those who believe that the universe was created by God.

Which god? There are thousands of gods that have been written about, and many have conflicting rules for their followers. By living your life according to one god, you are blaspheming against a thousand others.

Reason dictates that even if one could assume millions of gods in the universe, there is One Supreme God of all, and One that came before all the rest. Therefore, there would be no blasphemy of any of the other “thousands” of gods, since they worship the One who is greater than them, as well.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t believe that the universe started via supernatural/divine action.

Nobody said anything about “started” or “action”. The question is, which of the two possible First Causes or First Explanations do you believe on faith: a natural one or a supernatural one?

Which god? There are thousands of gods that have been written about, and many have conflicting rules for their followers. By living your life according to one god, you are blaspheming against a thousand others.

This is a smokescreen that non-believers always throw up, and it is just an evasion. It is, of course, something that we are happy to discuss, but don’t try and say you don’t believe in God because there are too many choices. In that case, you shouldn’t believe in a natural first cause/explanation because there are too many choices in that camp as well. Once again, you reveal a double standard.

An atheist or agnostic does not implicitly believe in a non-god alternative. When discussing the start of the universe, it is possible (and very common) to disbelieve “the christian god did it”, and disbelive e.g. “multiverse theory”, and say “I don’t know”. Effectively holding no belief on this issue.

Saying “it wasn’t X and it wasn’t Y” is most certainly holding a belief. And to say “I don’t know why the universe exists, I just know God didn’t do it!” is just an indefensible statement. Now if you have evidence to support your view, that is something that can be discussed. Otherwise, just admit that you have chosen a worldview based on faith in how you think the world does work, or must work, or should work.

My point is that, upon seeing the available evidence, a decision does not have to be made. It is perfectly valid (and most rational imo) to say “There is not enough evidence at the moment to conclude that any of the proposed possibilities are true”

Then the only rational thing to do is to live your life as though God existed.

 

[wasmit]

An atheist or agnostic does not implicitly believe in a non-god alternative. When discussing the start of the universe, it is possible (and very common) to disbelieve “the christian god did it”, and disbelive e.g. “multiverse theory”, and say “I don’t know”. Effectively holding no belief on this issue.

I am looking into several different religions, as time permits. i.e. “working out agnosticism”, as you put it.

 

[wasmit]

I don’t believe that the universe has natural origins.

None, it must be one or the other.

I do not believe either, even though one of them must be true. I do not know to a reasonable level of certanty which is true.

You are setting up a false choice here. You are saying that a person must choose between:

(1) Absolute 100% certainty that the universe was created by a divine entity
(2) Absolute 100% certainty that the universe began without the action of a divine entity

This choice does not need to me made. A person can say “I don’t know”. I do this

Then you’re not an atheist. Unless you can unequivocally decide that this was not created by the Supreme Being, you can’t really identify as an atheist.I don’t classify myself as an atheist, I call myself agnostic.

“Strong atheism is a term generally used to describe atheists who accept as true the proposition, “gods do not exist”. Weak atheism refers to any other type of non-theism.”

Your last sentence should read “…, you can’t really identify as a strong(or positive) atheist”

 

[wasmit]

Then you’re not an atheist. Unless you can unequivocally decide that this was not created by the Supreme Being, you can’t really identify as an atheist.

this is why I disagree with Strong (or positive) atheism, because it is impossible to be certain about these things. I agree with weak atheism.

How is a strong atheist omniscient, when she only claims knowledge about one issue, and not all issues?

and how does an atheist become a temporary god?

 

[Wowbagger]

How do I go from Agnostic to Catholic?
Help please

(1) You are not the first to make the journey.

(2) People who move from Agnostic → Catholic are almost always smarter than the ones going from Catholic → Agnostic, so, at the very least, you’re in good company.

(3) Do not fight against reason. There is a common misunderstanding today that faith is belief without reason. This is not accurate. Faith is that virtue by which we become able to hold fast to what we believe despite irrational challenges that may come along. Faith is supposed to be a dune that lines the precious island of reason and prevents it from being washed out by the waves of emotion. Properly understood, faith is vital to reason, and reason no less vital to faith. Blind faith without the eyes of reason is dangerous, and reason without the guiding hand of faith is suicide. (C.S. Lewis says the same thing better here.)

(4) If we follow our reason faithfully, it will lead us to truth. If religion is true (and, by gum, it had better be), reason will lead us to it. If religion is false, then religion is worse than useless. If religion is false, then religion is the enemy.

(5) If what troubles you is that you do not believe in God, try looking over some of the arguments for His existence. If you’re especially brave and especially smart, dip your fingers into the great Summa Theologica, especially Q2A3, Q3A1, and Q6A1. If you are not especially smart (most of us aren’t; I certainly wasn’t) and you find Aquinas’s arguments difficult or even stupid, I suggest Ralph McInerny’s brilliant introduction to Aquinas, A First Glance at St. Thomas Aquinas: A Handbook for Peeping Thomists.

(6) If what troubles you is the possibility that Jesus was not the risen son of God, look into Peter Kreeft’s possible explanations for the story of the Resurrection or even his general discussion of the divinity of Christ.

(7) If what troubles you is the teaching of Christianity in general, especially on moral matters, I recommend C.S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity, which can be purchased here or read for free online here (I’m sure C.S. wouldn’t mind).

(8) If what troubles you is the idea that the Catholic Church is the one, true, and infallible Church of Christ, try one of Catholic Answers’ own tracts on the subject. I’m personally partial to this one, but there are many others.

(9) If what troubles you is some other rational objection, ask it here. Answers–as you can see–abound.

(10) If what troubles you is not a reasonable objection, but is actually just your own resistance to unfamiliar ideas, then you must realize that this is irrational. It is something deep within you (and everybody else) called original sin, which has darkened your intellect and made you susceptible to believing things even when you know they aren’t true. The only things to do then are to pray to the God your mind believes in but your heart does not, to ruthlessly root out the resistance within yourself, and to continue to seek the love and support of your girlfriend.

(11) The love of a girlfriend can go a long way. I know.

 

[wasmit]

I don’t believe that the universe started via supernatural/divine action.

no, I don’t believe in either possibility.

Take for example this bad analogy: You have flipped coin in the air, and it is about to land. You do not belive that it will be heads, because you don’t know. You do not belive that it will be tails either, because you don’t know. But it must be one of those two.

Reason dictates that even if one could assume millions of gods in the universe, there is One Supreme God of all, and One that came before all the rest. Therefore, there would be no blasphemy of any of the other “thousands” of gods, since they worship the One who is greater than them, as well.

If this is true, then who is this supreme god? Allah? Zeus? Apollo? Ra? Cthulu? Bhudda?

 

[wasmit]

I don’t believe that the universe started via supernatural/divine action.

I belive neither precisely because they both require faith.

Which god? There are thousands of gods that have been written about, and many have conflicting rules for their followers. By living your life according to one god, you are blaspheming against a thousand others.

This is a smokescreen that non-believers always throw up, and it is just an evasion. It is, of course, something that we are happy to discuss, but don’t try and say you don’t believe in God because there are too many choices. In that case, you shouldn’t believe in a natural first cause/explanation because there are too many choices in that camp as well. Once again, you reveal a double standard.

My response was in relation to pascals wager, not the start of the universe.

An atheist or agnostic does not implicitly believe in a non-god alternative. When discussing the start of the universe, it is possible (and very common) to disbelieve “the christian god did it”, and disbelive e.g. “multiverse theory”, and say “I don’t know”. Effectively holding no belief on this issue.

Saying “it wasn’t X and it wasn’t Y” is most certainly holding a belief. And to say “I don’t know why the universe exists, I just know God didn’t do it!” is just an indefensible statement. Now if you have evidence to support your view, that is something that can be discussed. Otherwise, just admit that you have chosen a worldview based on faith in how you think the world does work, or must work, or should work.

I’m not saying “it wasn’t X and it wasn’t Y”. It must be one of those two. I am not saying “It was definitely X” and I am not saying “It was definitely Y”.

I’m not saying “I don’t know why the universe exists, I just know God didn’t do it” either. You seem to be misunderstanding my position.

My point is that, upon seeing the available evidence, a decision does not have to be made. It is perfectly valid (and most rational imo) to say “There is not enough evidence at the moment to conclude that any of the proposed possibilities are true”

Then the only rational thing to do is to live your life as though God existed.

This is the same pascal’s wager point you mentioned earlier. My reply was “Which god?”

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wowbagger - wow, I see you have bagged another one flawlessly. Bravo - you hit every angle one could imagine and your moniker is well chosen.

The book on peeping Thomast - that is a riot of a book title! :ROTFL:

There is absolutely stunning intellect in the Catholic Church saints and forefathers that still almost unrivaled even to this day.

I particularly have recently glommed onto the self evident truth that faith and intellect are extremely complimentary and God has designed one for the other like a tuned system. I heard an excellent commentary on this concept today on Catholic Radio. Faith is compared to a telescope that lets one extend their sensory feed light-years beyond to feed the intellect with new possibilites that can’t be fathomed in conventional linear and sensory/experientially limited thinking. Once one assumes through a context of faith a Supreme Creator who has ordered the Universe the intellect is liberated to focus on possibilities and solutions to paradoxes that just can not be reached with without faith. And the contrary perspective is that faith really needs intellect to feed it and to confirm its propositions and present a rational context to it all that we can contemplate. Without reason and intellect faith becomes too mystical and without faith intellect moves too deeply into naked scholasticism and looses the benefit of mystical insights. But paired together we get the best of our true human nature.

Humanity’s condition soars to the heavens when we pair faith with reason and intellect. Right now I’d say the West in general is stuck in a rut for lack of faith and attrited Christian influence due to secularized values…

James

 

[Wowbagger]

Thanks, CFLJ. Glad you liked it. (It’s a very good book. And drily humorous.)

I just want you to know that I’m stealing your metaphor.

Hey, Wasmit! (1) You’re spamming with the multiposts, (2) you’re off-topic. Could you and your co-discussants take the theism fight somewhere else, please?

 

[wanner47]

I recommend reading the blog “Conversion Diary” – it’s the story of an atheist who ended up converting to Catholicism. She has a wonderful writing style and her story is very compelling.

conversiondiary.com/2006/12/on-having-proof.html

 

[MikeDunphy]

When I was struggling to believe I labored under the delusion that atheism somehow automatically “wins” in the absence of really compelling evidence to the contrary. But that isn’t reasonable. Saying “there is no God” is a strong statement, and one very different from “I don’t know (at least not right now)”.

Like you, I prayed, and my prayers seemed to go unanswered (it was like dropping words into an echoless void). And I worried about being foolish.

But you know what? No one can see the foolish thoughts in your own head – keep praying, keep seeking! [Now I believe that there truly is One Who knows your innermost thoughts. But He will not scorn you].

Part of what worked for me was to talk to God (“if you are there”, I said) from where I was right then. Tell Him you want to believe. Tell Him when you are getting distracted or frustrated. Tell him when you are moved or inspired, too, if you are so blessed. It is not that He needs to be informed of these matters, the point is to approach Him with sincerity and to start getting things clear in your own mind. And to ask for help.

May I suggest that you try to set aside blocks of at least 10 to 15 minutes to pray in a quiet place?

You’ll be in my prayers this evening.

Well, to start off, I’m Agnostic but I want to believe in God.

I’ve tried hard to believe that there is a God but every time I try and pray, I get this powerful feeling that I’m being an idiot and what I’m doing has really no point.

Now, naturally, most would say “Can you please prove to me that there is a God” yet I know that defeats the purpose of faith. What’s worse, is my family used to be heavily mormon and I’ve reviewed it all in my head with the conclusion of rubbish but I have this feeling I may be making a huge mistake labeling it as such.

,__, I’m lost in this pool of I don’t know what’s true - The logical bit of me seems right but intution says it’s not. My catholic girlfriend has been trying to help me but I don’t know what to do. If I were to die tomorrow, I don’t want to be damned but if I were to die 80 years from now, I don’t want to have been living a lie.

Can someone help me? How can I find God? I’ve tried reading the bible, I’ve tried praying (and as far as I know my prayers go seemingly unanswered), and I’ve even been to Catholic church. I can’t, however, seem to grasp a logical answer that my brain wont fight itself with about that ultimate topic that many people struggle with all the time. ‘God and his existence.’

My girlfriend tried to explain it to me earlier but I ended up crying ;_;

How do I go from Agnostic to Catholic?
Help please

 

[Hukeyohi]

I really, really, really appreciate all the replies. I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner as I’ve been really busy with work. I will definately pray more and I thank Wowbagger for that link for the arguments for God. I didn’t even need to read past argument four [let alone the first two]. It made really good points as well as the supportive posts outside of the Weak Atheist [as he prefered it] vs Theist portion that made it’s way in here.

I’ll do my best on taking all of your advice <3

You’ll all be in my prayers (even you wasmit)

 

[VociMike]

This is the same pascal’s wager point you mentioned earlier. My reply was “Which god?”

And my reply to your reply is, considering that the stakes for you are beyond all measure, how would you decide which god? We can’t care about your eternal state more than you do. So given the possibility that your eternal state is at play here, how would you make that decision?

 

[wasmit]

And my reply to your reply is, considering that the stakes for you are beyond all measure, how would you decide which god? We can’t care about your eternal state more than you do. So given the possibility that your eternal state is at play here, how would you make that decision?

It’s impossible to choose, choosing one will garner the ire of thousands of others. Choosing none will also anger a great many gods. Under this situation, every person is destined to receive many different versions of the “bad consequences”.

 

[davemcphee]

Well, to start off, I’m Agnostic but I want to believe in God.

I’ve tried hard to believe that there is a God but every time I try and pray, I get this powerful feeling that I’m being an idiot and what I’m doing has really no point.

I think I am in the exact same position as you. I don’t believe, but am recently married to a catholic (and her family of course) who have challenged me in a loving way to really explore my beliefs and convictions. I too have prayed with (what i believe to have been) complete conviction, and heard nothing back. I still hope for a burning bush, the clouds parting, a heavenly voice surrounded by sun beams to speak to me directly but I don’t think this is realistic.

From what I understand, god is in the details, his voice is quiet, his signs are subtle, and you must want to see or hear them. Keep listening, keep hoping, I think this is the only way.

Oh, and a warning. No matter how much a catholic believes in god AND loves you, chances are they are not an expert on Catholicism (few people are). I have annoyed my wife many times when she simply didn’t know the answer to one of my question (and I have many, and boy are some of them probably stupid, my poor wife). If you have questions, go to a professional. Priests, in my experience, love nothing more than answering the questions of an honest human looking for truth. Go to church with your girlfriend, and if you like what the priest has to say, go talk to him after the service. You’ll be glad you did, and more so, so will your girlfriend!