Help me to answer Muslim Apologetics!

[Masihi]

It’s good you as a Muslim admit Bukhari is of questionable authority.

 

[Masihi]

The term we as used say for example Queen Elizabeth is the declare the unity of the whole kingdom and her authority as a monarch of a plurality of people. Christians don’t believe God is three in one, it’s misinterpretation of trinitarian beliefs, Christians believe God exists as a plurality or more specifically, God’s very being, essence and deity resides in three divine persons, it’s incorrect to state God is three in one for there is only one deity who resides as three co ternal persons, not three persons in one person as Ahmed Deedat incorrectly stated.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I recommend watching Nabeel Qureshi, former Muslim, on YouTube. He has a number of videos that are worth watching on the subject.

 

[SalamKhan]

Christians don’t believe God punishes people for their fathers sins

I said first parents, which was a reference to original sin.

Hell is eternal for Kuffar, while it is temporary for certain sinful Muslims, the Quran, Hadith, and Tafsir say many times he’ll is the eternal abode of Kuffar

I just told you that scholars like Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyyah have demonstrated that this isn’t the case.

 

[Chaldean]

And as I have already explained, this is due to later Hadith scholars like Ibn Hajar al Asqalani (d. 15th century). The Asharis and Hanbalis today hold the collection of Imam Bukhari in very high esteem. However, Imam Bukhari was actually shunned and condemned by his contemporaries. By the Hanbalis of Baghdad, because they believed him to be a heretic, and by the Hanafis of Bukhara, because Imam Bukhari criticised Imam Abu Hanifa. In the end, Imam Bukhari died with very few friends and allies, one of whom was Imam Muslim (compiler of the Hadith collection named after him). The collections of Bukhari and Muslim started to be held in high esteem due to Imam Hakim al Naysaburi (d. 11th century). The aforementioned Imams Bukhari, Muslim, and Hakim, were great and respectable scholars in their own right, but however many Sunni Muslim scholars eventually became complacent and started to become over-reliant on Hadith. No Hadith collection should be considered the “most authentic book after the Qur’an”, and there should be no “six canonical books”.

Sure. But millions of Muslims will not agree with this. Mainstream Islam believe that Sahih Al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are two of the six major Hadith collections. They also hold these two of the highest status. In my opinion, I believe that these 2 books are the source of modern radical Islam we see now days. Again, these books are still taught in the majority of Muslim countries. Just an FYI, “Sahih” in Arabic translates to Authentic.

Yep, you got me. But it’s not like I ever claimed to do so, right? I merely asserted that you do not understand the Qur’anic Arabic. Also, thanks for reposting one of links I posted.

There is no Quranic Arabic lol. Arabic existed before the Quran. Yet, the Arabic in the Quran is open to different interpretations and this is why you cannot rely only on the Quran itself. You need Hadith’s in order to understand the verse in a proper way.

You did not say it, but you are attempting to prove the possibility of incarnation from this. Otherwise, what exactly is your point?

My point is simple. The Quran talks about God appearing in the mountain and a tree to speak with Moses. This proves the possibility from a Muslim view that God is able to manifest or appear on earth. Yet, when it comes to Jesus, Muslims can’t fathom the idea of God manifesting in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Christians get accused of believing in 3 Gods. Which is not true. We believe in 1 God, the one who manifested in the flesh of Jesus Christ.

God has seventy thousand veils of light and darkness; if He were to remove them, the radiant splendors of His Face would burn up whoever (or ‘whatever creature’) was reached by His Gaze

We believe that God is light. I do not know about the validity of the seventy thousand veils of lights and darkness. Islam also believes that God has a face, arms, legs, and fingers.

Affirmation that Allah has two feet - Islam Question & Answer

https://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_as_man.htm

 

[Niblo]

From the Athanasian Credd:

'Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

'Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

'Now this is the catholic faith:

‘That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence.’

 

[Niblo]

Three in One and One in Three,
Ruler of the earth and sea,
hear us while we lift to thee
holy chant and psalm.

Light of lights! with morning shine,
lift on us thy light divine;
and let charity benign
breathe on us her balm.

Light of lights! when falls the even,
let it sink on sin forgiven;
fold us in the peace of heaven;
shed a vesper calm.

Three in One and One in Three,
darkling here we worship thee;
with the saints hereafter we
hope to bear the palm.

G. Rorison

Of course Trinitarians believe that God is three in one and one in three. I first learned this…and heard this hymn…at around the age of six…in Sunday School. 68 years ago! Good tune, too. Albeit not Welsh.

 

[SalamKhan]

Sure. But millions of Muslims will not agree with this.

Millions of Muslims aren’t even aware of this. You don’t seem to be interested in discussing the topic of Hadith objectively, but perhaps I’ll try one more time. Now, there are scholars who are aware of these facts and are open about them; however these scholars are few. Then there are scholars who are aware of these facts, but either choose not to be open about them, or pretend to be ignorant about them, or attempt to deny/ignore these facts. Then there are so called ‘scholars’ who are completely ignorant of these facts.

As for the “scholars who are aware of these facts, but either choose not to be open about them, or pretend to be ignorant about them, or attempt to deny/ignore these facts”, they do so for one of two reasons (or perhaps both):

1. They are complacent, they are satisfied and comfortable with the way things already are.
2. They are concerned with the consequences of making these things known to the public, whether it’s a corrupt concern like losing control over the masses, or a genuine concern like the masses losing faith.

With regards to the second point, they should not be afraid. The majority of the Muslim laity simply don’t care about these things, they know there is a Qur’an, what their parents taught them, and what their teacher taught them at a local Mosque; so they weren’t aware of anything about Hadith to begin with for them to start doubting their faith, nor were they ever under the control of corrupt scholars. Perhaps students of knowledge and laymen who seek knowledge, especially Salafis, whose minds have been drilled with ideas that a certain Hadith collection is the most authentic book after the Qur’an, and that there are six canonical books, and that the common method of testing Hadiths is more or less infallible; their faiths may get shaken, which is a bad thing, or they may no longer be under the control of corrupt scholars, which is a good thing.

Just an FYI, “Sahih” in Arabic translates to Authentic

I know that and I even said that before. You don’t seem to be reading what I’m actually writing. What is the point of this discussion?

There is no Quranic Arabic lol

The Arabic used in the Qur’an, is different to modern Arabic. Hence why I said Qur’anic Arabic.

Yet, the Arabic in the Quran is open to different interpretations and this is why you cannot rely only on the Quran itself. You need Hadith’s in order to understand the verse in a proper way.

You don’t seem to understand what I’m actually talking about most of the time.

Many early scholars, especially the Hanafis, made it a condition that a Hadith must not contradict the Qur’an in order to be accepted. Even earlier than that, scholars among the first three generations of Muslims, criticised/condemned those who studied Hadith, unless they had knowledge of jurisprudence; so it seems that they believed Hadiths are more related to jurisprudence, rather than doctrine and exegesis of the Qur’an.

 

[SalamKhan]

This proves the possibility from a Muslim view that God is able to manifest or appear on earth. Yet, when it comes to Jesus, Muslims can’t fathom the idea of God manifesting in the flesh of Jesus Christ.

So you said you weren’t talking about incarnation, but now are talking about incarnation. BTW, you’re still ignoring how the mountain couldn’t withstand God’s presence therefore disproving your point, and you’re still asserting that God appeared at the burning bush when it doesn’t say that in the Qur’an at all. The Qur’an says that God spoke to Moses (A), nowhere does it say that God appeared at the burning bush. I’ll repeat (or rephrase) a question that you ignored earlier:

Do you understand the difference between speech and appearance?

Islam also believes that God has a face, arms, legs, and fingers

There are those who believe that the wording of these must be affirmed, that the meaning of the wording is known, but the how is unknown; these are the Hanbalis and modern Salafis.

Then there are those believe that the wording of these must be affirmed, but that the reality of the meaning is unknown; these are the Maturidis and many Asharis.

Finally, there are those believe that the wording must be interpreted metaphorically in accordance with the Qur’anic Arabic, because the meaning is not literal; these are the Mutazilites and again many Asharis.

 

[Niblo]

Please see above posts…

 

[Chaldean]

nowhere does it say that God appeared at the burning bush. I’ll repeat (or rephrase) a question that you ignored earlier:

Al Qasas 29. When Moses had completed the term, and departed with his family, he noticed a fire by the side of the Mount. He said to his family, “Stay here, I have glimpsed a fire. Perhaps I can bring you some information from there, or an ember from the fire, that you may warm yourselves.” 30. When he reached it, he was called from the right side of the valley, at the Blessed Spot, from the bush: “O Moses, it is I, God, the Lord of the Worlds.

Read what last paragraph says- From the Bush.

Al Naml 7. When Moses said to his family, “Indeed, I have perceived a fire. I will bring you from there information or will bring you a burning torch that you may warm yourselves.” 8 Then, when he reached it, he was called: “Blessed is He who is within the fire, and He who is around it, and glorified be God, Lord of the Worlds. 9. O Moses, it is I, God, the Almighty, the Wise.

Millions of Muslims aren’t even aware of this. You don’t seem to be interested in discussing the topic of Hadith objectively, but perhaps I’ll try one more time. Now, there are scholars who are aware of these facts and are open about them; however these scholars are few. Then there are scholars who are aware of these facts, but either choose not to be open about them, or pretend to be ignorant about them, or attempt to deny/ignore these facts. Then there are so called ‘scholars’ who are completely ignorant of these facts.

I don’t agree with you here. The millions of Muslims are aware. They follow their scholars because they believe in what they say word for word. Because it aligns with the early teaching of Islam.

As far as discussing the topic of Hadith, I am not Muslim. Therefore, I may not be well suited to discuss this in detail. However, I do have general knowledge and I state facts. I understand that you’re views may be more liberal, but what I am trying to say is that the majority of Muslims don’t share your views. The main topic of the conversation was in regards to the appearance of God to Moses. I cited a source, and you called it weak. Even though my source was credible.

As for the “scholars who are aware of these facts, but either choose not to be open about them, or pretend to be ignorant about them, or attempt to deny/ignore these facts”, they do so for one of two reasons (or perhaps both):

1. They are complacent, they are satisfied and comfortable with the way things already are.
2. They are concerned with the consequences of making these things known to the
   public, whether it’s a corrupt concern like losing control over the masses, or a genuine concern like the masses losing faith.

I would like to add-
3. They’re hardcore believers in there ideology and follow the teachings of the early clerics because it’s more authentic. I believe the 3rd group are more inline with the original teaching of Islam.

 

[Chaldean]

They are concerned with the consequences of making these things known to the public, whether it’s a corrupt concern like losing control over the masses, or a genuine concern like the masses losing faith.

I do not agree with this either. Look at the clerics in Iran. People are protesting on daily basis asking for reforms, yet the clerics are dead set on their ideologies.

So you said you weren’t talking about incarnation, but now are talking about incarnation. BTW, you’re still ignoring how the mountain couldn’t withstand God’s presence therefore disproving your point,

This is not true. You’re ignoring the obvious. For the third time, please see below-

AL Araf 143 "And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, “My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You.” [ Allah ] said, “You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.” But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, “Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.”

Pay attention to where it says, the Lord appeared to the mountain. This proves my point. Regardless of what happened to the mountain after the fact that God had appeared. What matters is that God appeared and then the mountain collapsed. You’re so determined to disprove that God didn’t appear to Moses. Even though the story here aligns with the old Testament. I think I know why you are trying to disprove this but I will keep it to myself.

 

[Chaldean]

You don’t seem to understand what I’m actually talking about most of the time.

Many early scholars, especially the Hanafis, made it a condition that a Hadith must not contradict the Qur’an in order to be accepted. Even earlier than that, scholars among the first three generations of Muslims, criticised/condemned those who studied Hadith, unless they had knowledge of jurisprudence; so it seems that they believed Hadiths are more related to jurisprudence, rather than doctrine and exegesis of the Qur’an.

This is a lame excuse. My point is that the Quran is open to different interpretations that contradict each other. You have explained the history behind it. I understand. Yet it does not change the fact that the Quran is interpreted differently from one scholar to the other. You giving me the history of why it happened doesn’t change my statement.

 

[PseudoClasm]

ear friends, I come across some questions our Muslim brethren use against Christianity. They use these questions to our youth in schools and colleges. Can you help with this?

1. Christians have various versions of Bible while Muslims have only one version of Quran. Various versions dent Bible’s authority.

Islam took its inspiration from an angel of light, which God never told the Israelites was going to happen; further, it happened 600 years after Christ ascended. It adopts apostate practices of the Jews in how they pray, how they avoid certain foods, their belief that angels have no free will, and their denial of the divinity of Christ.

1. Christians have heretics. All non-Catholics have changed Scriptures for their own devices. Muslims have Sunnis, Shia, Sufi, and other random sects that are not of the original fold.
2. Israel is only those who stand with Jesus who told His apostles to teach ALL nations ALL He had commanded (Matt 28:20) … If Muslims had read the rest of the Gospel they would be corrected by Jesus.
3. God does not sin. Their apostasy precludes them from interpreting our Scriptures and determining whether or not God sinned.
4. Jesus says (for His human nature) that He is below the Father. But, He is God. (John 1:1) And His divine nature is the same goodness as the Father. (John 10:30)
5. Jesus died. The Muslims echo the Nestorian claims that the natures of Jesus were separate and therefore His divine nature didn’t die. The whole thing is a mess of heresy that has no logic to it…trying to understand falsehood is folly.
6. Jesus said the “flesh is weak” and the “spirit is willing”. (Matt 26:41) If Muslims do not accept the hypostatic union meaning: One God with divine nature and human nature, inseparably combined, then they cannot understand Christianity.
7. Muslims, like Protestants, make this claim. They don’t understand how illogical it is that Jesus would doubt His Father who He knew from the beginning. (John 1:1) And, they don’t know the Psalms which Jesus was reciting to the faithful Israelites at the foot of the cross. the victory Psalm 21 which is a victory Psalm, composed by David, which not only predicts that the soldiers will cast lots for the garments of Jesus (verse 19) but also that Jesus’ feet and hands will be pierced. (verse 17) The Psalm ends with: “Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. … All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight. … and he shall have dominion over the nations. … all they that go down to the earth shall fall before him. And to him my soul shall live: and my seed shall serve him.”
8. This is the Arian heresy. Jesus was begotten, not made. (Proverbs 8:22) Again, we should not try to understand heresies…because they are false and there is no good end in it.
9. Jesus was to come again on the 3rd day. Friday - Day 1, Saturday - Day 2, Sunday - Day 3 … arguing about 3 24-hour periods is nonsensical.

 

[SalamKhan]

Read what last paragraph says- From the Bush

For the last time. It says God spoke to Moses, not that God appeared at the burning bush. It is now fair for me to assume that you don’t understand the difference between speech and appearance.

I don’t agree with you here. The millions of Muslims are aware.

They aren’t aware of the history of Hadith and its studies that I have mentioned. You saying that they are doesn’t make it true. You’re not a Muslim either, so you’re out of touch as to what Muslims know and don’t know.

I understand that you’re views may be more liberal

I didn’t learn these things from Google, Wikipedia, or non Muslims, I learnt these facts from Muslim scholars, Sunni Muslim scholars in fact. Don’t believe me? Look up Shaykh Atabek Shukurov and Mufti Abu Layth for example, even Shaykh Gibril Haddad who follows the complacent scholars still gives some objective history regarding Hadith.

I cited a source, and you called it weak

You cited a source regarding Mary and Jesus not being touched by Satan. That’s what I called weak. The source had nothing to do with the topic of God appearing to Moses.

Pay attention to where it says, the Lord appeared to the mountain. This proves my point.

It disproves your point, God clearly says Moses (A) will not see Him, and the mountain could not even withstand His presence (some believe it was His sign, Surah 73:14). Going by this, a burning bush or a human being would be far too frail for God to indwell. You said that Muslim scholars differ in their interpretation of the Qur’an. This is true, yet none of them draw the conclusions about God and the mountain that you have drawn.

I think I know why you are trying to disprove this but I will keep it to myself.

No, your interpretations are far fetched, and it’s fruitless to argue with you. You are obviously no expert in Islamic theology, and have no idea how to intepret verses accordingly. You claim I am liberal, but I often refer back to classical theological schools such as the Asharis, Maturidis and Mutazilites. But yet you pretend to know the mind of Muslims, and what’s closer to original Islam. Dare I say it, I think you’re either incredibly naive or just dishonest. And this conversation will go no further.

 

[Chaldean]

For the last time. It says God spoke to Moses, not that God appeared at the burning bush. It is now fair for me to assume that you don’t understand the difference between speech and appearance.

OH My GOD!!! The verse clearly says APPEARED! See Below for the tenth time! I am going to CAP it for you. I am also going to assume I have been talking to a wall this whole time!

AL Araf 143 "And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, “My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You.” [ Allah ] said, “You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.” But when his Lord APPEARED to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, “Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.”

They aren’t aware of the history of Hadith and its studies that I have mentioned. You saying that they are doesn’t make it true. You’re not a Muslim either, so you’re out of touch as to what Muslims know and don’t know.

You’d think you’ll know some about me since we have been going back and forth all day. I speak Arabic, so I obviously grew up in a Muslim country. I can also read the Quran in Arabic unlike you who only memorizes it without knowing the meaning. In school back home, they taught Hadith’s in Muslim classes. So you’re not saying the truth. Islam was a requirement since first grade. They forced me to attend some of the classes. but i just walked out one day and said I don’t want to listen to this. I’ll also would like to add that my family along with hundreds of thousands of other Christians who lived in this land for thousands of years were forced to leave Iraq in the past 30 years due to your religion of peace. Iraq went from being 20% Christians 30 years ago, to less than .5% Christians now. Trust me, I am in touch and got to experience it first hand!

 

[Chaldean]

No, your interpretations are far fetched, and it’s fruitless to argue with you. You are obviously no expert in Islamic theology, and have no idea how to intepret verses accordingly. You claim I am liberal, but I often refer back to classical theological schools such as the Asharis, Maturidis and Mutazilites. But yet you pretend to know the mind of Muslims, and what’s closer to original Islam. Dare I say it, I think you’re either incredibly naive or just dishonest. And this conversation will go no further.

I said your teachings were liberal when compared to Wahabis and Salafis. I guess I was wrong on this one. You proved your true colors and ideology. I also don’t pretend to know the mind of Muslims. I have many Muslim friends that I am cordial with. But People like you are easy to read. When things do not go their way, they resort to attacking others. Good luck with that in life.

 

[Niblo]

The Arabic used in the Qur’an, is different to modern Arabic. Hence why I said Qur’anic Arabic.

This, of course, is perfectly correct.

 

[Masihi]

God doesn’t hold people responsible for their parents sins either, that’s not what original or ancestral sin teaches. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Death will come on the Day of Resurrection like a black and white ram, and it will stand between Paradise and Hell. It will be said, ‘O people of Paradise, do you recognize this?’ They will crane their necks and look, and will say, ‘Yes, it is death.’

It will be said, ‘O people of Hell, do you recognize this?’ They will crane their necks and look, and will say, ‘Yes, it is death.’ Then the command will be issued and it will be slaughtered. Then it will be said, ‘O People of Paradise, it is eternal and there is no death. O people of Hell, it is eternal and there is no death.’” Then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And warn them (O Muhammad) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not”

(Narrated by Muslim, 5087, from the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri)

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/foru...t-sects/1579-will-kuffar-burn-in-hell-forever

 

[Masihi]

We worship one deity in the form of three persons, this is not be be understood as one God in three gods or three persons in one person, we worship one deity in the form of my three divine persons each bearing the same essence and deity as each other. Hence why three in one is a wrong concept which confuses many people and is. not taught by the Athanasian Creed.