Help Me to understand "Ever Virgin"

[Free_Grace]

Hello!

First off, let me say that I am a Protestant. I hope you guys will forgive me for that. I have a question concerning the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It isn’t my intention to debate about it. I just want to understand it as related to my question. Hopefully whatever answers you guys give, I will be able to state back in my own words to show that I understood you. Thank you in advance for any and all help that you guys give.

1. Theologically speaking, did Mary need to be a Perpetual Virgin? I am not asking in referance to the Virginal Conception, or Virgin Birth. Was there a theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin?
2. Is there any theological connection being the “Ever Virgin” and the redemption and reconciliation that was made by Christ at the cross?
3. In regards to the ancient Christological heresies, what role did the teachings of Mary play in the safe guarding of the Person of Christ?

Again, thank you so much in advance for taking the time out to answer my questions. I am not wanting to debate the answers you give. I am wanting to understand theology on a grander scale than my previous persuits allowed.

F.G.

 

[FCEGM]

Free Grace!:

Hello!

First off, let me say that I am a Protestant. I hope you guys will forgive me for that. I have a question concerning the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. It isn’t my intention to debate about it. I just want to understand it as related to my question. Hopefully whatever answers you guys give, I will be able to state back in my own words to show that I understood you. Thank you in advance for any and all help that you guys give.

1. Theologically speaking, did Mary need to be a Perpetual Virgin? I am not asking in referance to the Virginal Conception, or Virgin Birth. Was there a theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin?
2. Is there any theological connection being the “Ever Virgin” and the redemption and reconciliation that was made by Christ at the cross?
3. In regards to the ancient Christological heresies, what role did the teachings of Mary play in the safe guarding of the Person of Christ?

Again, thank you so much in advance for taking the time out to answer my questions. I am not wanting to debate the answers you give. I am wanting to understand theology on a grander scale than my previous persuits allowed.

F.G.

Hello, F.G. and welcome to the Forum. Your friendly approach to the topic is very refreshing. You might start with this excellent article:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

And also see the discussion here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1139149#post1139149

 

[Thal59]

1. Theologically speaking, did Mary need to be a Perpetual Virgin? I am not asking in referance to the Virginal Conception, or Virgin Birth. Was there a theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin?<<<

It is assumed, by the nature of her conversation with the angel Gabriel, that Mary was consecrated as a virgin to the lord. Since she was, by the angel’s proclamation, full of grace, she indeed “needed” to remain ever-virgin since anything less would diminish her consumate love of God.

Theological reasons for her to remain a virgin? The womb of Mary is the virginal sanctuary where the word of God, Jesus, put on both flesh and blood. Sacred flesh and blood that suffered and died for the salvation of the world. Now, F.G., considering the perfect and eternal dignity and holiness of Jesus, would it be acceptable to you that the virginal sanctuary where the word of God became incarnate should also be the birthplace of sinners?

Thal59

 

[MariaG]

The foreshadowing of Mary and the Ark are what really helped me see why Mary was Ever Virgin.

There is some great Scripture at Scripture Catholic that lays it all out.

Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

And more generally, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

But for me, a revert, the most compelling argument when we see that the ark really did foreshadow Mary, was that the Ark could not be touched except by those who had been sanctified. When a man stumbled and accidently fell against the Ark, God still struck him dead.

The Ark carried the Word of God.

Mary carred the Word.

It is really very interesting stuff, all very scriptural, and I hope you take time to read it. It is what really helped me to embrace the teaching of the Catholic Church as ever virgin.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Fredricks]

What is the Catholic church official position on the Ark as foreshadowing Mary? Can someone provide a link?

 

[Della]

Welcome to the board, FG!

Have you ever heard of the Church Fathers? They were the theologians and bishops of the early Church, some of whom sat at the feet of the Apostles themselves. They taught Mary’s perpetual virginity as a certainty. There were some who disputed this teaching, but the Church affirmed it very early on.

If you are on the Evangelical side of Christianity you probably don’t recite the Nicene Creed at your services, but it was adopted at the Council of Constantinople (381). It calls Mary “the Virgin Mary” and by that it doesn’t just mean that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (although it certainly does mean that), but that that is her preeminent title, since she was a virgin before, during, and after she gave birth to Jesus. She isn’t called “Mary, who was a virgin before and during Jesus birth”, but “the Virgin Mary.”

The whole of Christendom believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary right through the time of the Reformers, such as Martin Luther and John Calvin. It wasn’t until later that other reformers who followed them rejected this ancient teaching of the Church with the mistaken idea that it exalted Mary above Jesus, which it patently doesn’t do, for without being the Mother of the Lord, who would ever have heard of her?

 

[Free_Grace]

FCEGM:

Hello, F.G. and welcome to the Forum. Your friendly approach to the topic is very refreshing. You might start with this excellent article:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a82.htm

And also see the discussion here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1139149#post1139149

Thank you so very much! I will most certainly look into the links you have provided.

 

[Free_Grace]

Thal59:

It is assumed, by the nature of her conversation with the angel Gabriel, that Mary was consecrated as a virgin to the lord. Since she was, by the angel’s proclamation, full of grace, she indeed “needed” to remain ever-virgin since anything less would diminish her consumate love of God.

Theological reasons for her to remain a virgin? The womb of Mary is the virginal sanctuary where the word of God, Jesus, put on both flesh and blood. Sacred flesh and blood that suffered and died for the salvation of the world. Now, F.G., considering the perfect and eternal dignity and holiness of Jesus, would it be acceptable to you that the virginal sanctuary where the word of God became incarnate should also be the birthplace of sinners?

Thal59

<<<Now, F.G., considering the perfect and eternal dignity and holiness of Jesus, would it be acceptable to you that the virginal sanctuary where the word of God became incarnate should also be the birthplace of sinners?>>>

Now that is definitly something to think about. That’s deep. I’ll most likely refer back to this post often. Thanks so very much. That is a huge thought to chew on and digest! And of course, you do have a very valid point.

F.G.

 

[Della]

Fredricks:

What is the Catholic church official position on the Ark as foreshadowing Mary? Can someone provide a link?

There is this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding: the Ave Maria or Hail Mary in which Mary is likened to the Ark of the Covenant because she bore Christ who is the Word of God.

Also, in the Church’s liturgy for the feast of the Assumption of Mary, Rev.11:19 is cited as referring to Mary’s Assumption into heaven with Rev. 12:1 showing her as the woman clother with the sun, etc. As well as, Ps. 132:8: “Arise, O LORD, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might,” referring to Mary as the ark.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Free Grace!:

1. Theologically speaking, did Mary need to be a Perpetual Virgin? I am not asking in referance to the Virginal Conception, or Virgin Birth. Was there a theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin?

As a Protestant, I am sure you treat your Bible with respect and would not use it for any ignoble purpose. Why? Because the Bible is a holy book and you distinguish between what is holy and what is common, as the Lord commanded in Leviticus 10:10:
You are to distinguish between the holy and the common…

Theologically speaking, Mary’s womb was made holy by Jesus’ presence therein; her womb was consecrated to God and set apart from common use. Conceiving common children after the birth of the holy child Jesus would have profaned what was holy.

1. Is there any theological connection being the “Ever Virgin” and the redemption and reconciliation that was made by Christ at the cross?

None that I can think of at this time, except maybe to fulfill the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10:
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.

1. In regards to the ancient Christological heresies, what role did the teachings of Mary play in the safe guarding of the Person of Christ?

Giving Mary the title “Mother of God” safeguards the divinity of Jesus Christ and that he is one person with both a divine and human nature.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Free Grace:

Welcome!!!

I hope you come across the Theology of the Body by JPII. He explains the nature of the word VIRGIN and what in its deepest sense it means. In a nutshell, it means the integrity of the soul and the body living out the truth. So the entrance of sin is the rupture of this integrity. Our bodies being the image and likeness of God is virginal when it is not torn by sin.

Just a point on the virginity of Mother Mary in light of being with Joseph. For her, the physical experience of having been overcome by the Holy Spirit and being pregnant with the Incarnate God, any human intercourse would simply pale in comparison to that ecstacy she must have felt upon the conception of Christ. We can assume that should one be impregnated by God, no man would even be sufficient to equally satisfy the experience physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. On Joseph’s part, who knew full well that she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and being a just man; would not in any sense interfere with the Holy of Holies, the womb that bore Christ.

Hope this helps a bit…

Hope you stick around.

in XT.

 

[VociMike]

One way of looking at Mary’s ever-virginity is to ask under what circumstances it is proper for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers? It is proper if the first father dies. It is also arguably proper if the first father abandons the mother and child. However, if the first father is both alive and has not abandoned the mother and child, then we understand, and Jewish law certainly confirms, that it is not proper for another to come along and father children with the mother.

In the case of Mary, the Father is both alive, and did not abandon Mary and Jesus. Thus it would not have been proper for another to father additional children with Mary.

 

[MariaG]

Della:

There is this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding: the Ave Maria or Hail Mary in which Mary is likened to the Ark of the Covenant because she bore Christ who is the Word of God.

Also, in the Church’s liturgy for the feast of the Assumption of Mary, Rev.11:19 is cited as referring to Mary’s Assumption into heaven with Rev. 12:1 showing her as the woman clother with the sun, etc. As well as, Ps. 132:8: “Arise, O LORD, and go to thy resting place, thou and the ark of thy might,” referring to Mary as the ark.

One of the most important things to remember about all the teachings of Mary including ever Virgin and being concieved without original sin are not because of Mary or to anyway elevate her.

They all about Christ. The focus is about Christ. She was always a virgin, because of who Christ was.

The doctrines about Mary are really about the nature of Christ.

That is one of the reasons Catholics react so strongly. It is not just trying to tear down Our Mother whom we believe Christ gave to the world (on the cross when He told John this is your mother.), but we believe by trying to make less of her, people are making less of Christ. The only reason Mary is anything is because of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

<<<Now, F.G., considering the perfect and eternal dignity and holiness of Jesus, would it be acceptable to you that the virginal sanctuary where the word of God became incarnate should also be the birthplace of sinners?>>>

Now that is definitly something to think about. That’s deep. I’ll most likely refer back to this post often. Thanks so very much. That is a huge thought to chew on and digest! And of course, you do have a very valid point.

F.G.

One of the most important things to remember about all the teachings of Mary including ever Virgin and being concieved without original sin are not because of Mary or to elevate her in anyway.

They all about Christ. The focus is about Christ. She was always a virgin, because of who Christ was.

The doctrines about Mary are really about the nature of Christ.

That is one of the reasons Catholics react so strongly. It is not just trying to tear down Our Mother whom we believe Christ gave to the world (on the cross when He told John this is your mother.), but we believe by trying to make less of her, people are making less of Christ.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Free_Grace]

Thanks so much for all the answers given so far. I’ve had very much to think about. That comes from thoughtful people like yourselves.

This is going to sound a little dumb, but this is something that is slowly dawning on me. This is tons more than just about the state of Mary’s hyman after she gave birth, isn’t it? I don’t mean to be crude by my word usage, so please, don’t take offense. I mean, of course, if she is “Ever Virgin” it is important that her hyman be intact, but this is really more than just about a peice of flesh, isn’t it? It’s about something grander, something more awesome, something that points us to God’s outstretched arms that beckon us to His embrace, isn’t it?

Am I getting somewhere near the ball park?

Anyway, please keep directing me with your posts.

God bless each of you.

F.G.

 

[AquinasXVI]

FreeGrace:

One of the reasons that the early Christians and the Catholics of today venerate the Mother of Jesus is because she gives us the model of WOMAN. Eve failed in giving us the perfect image of woman. So we look to Mary as the new Eve because she upheld the true dignity of womanhood as God intended. The paradox of being ever virgin and at the same time being a mother is very deep. She then exemplifies the will of God for women…to have integrity of soul and body(Virginity) and also participate in the life giving capability of her being—to bring about new life. Check out JPII’s encyclical Dignitatem Mulieris (The Dignity and Vocation of Women). It will give you the proper and beautiful understanding of what FEMINISM is as opposed to the incomplete modern ideas of Feminism.

She is worth all the praises that we give her. Given that Christ fulfilled the commandements perfectly, he honors his mother eternally(4th commandment). We imitate Christ when we do the same.

But beyond all of the theology that you may come across, Mother Mary is a person not an idea. So we build a love relationship with her too…and this is justified by Christ when he said to John: Son behold your mother.

Thanks.

in XT.

 

[FCEGM]

Free Grace!:

Thanks so much for all the answers given so far. I’ve had very much to think about. That comes from thoughtful people like yourselves.

. . . . It’s about something grander, something more awesome, something that points us to God’s outstretched arms that beckon us to His embrace, isn’t it?

Am I getting somewhere near the ball park?

You’re about to hit a home run.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Free Grace!:

1. Theologically speaking, did Mary need to be a Perpetual Virgin? I am not asking in referance to the Virginal Conception, or Virgin Birth. Was there a theological reason for Mary to remain a virgin?

Here are a couple more (admittedly weak) arguments about the need for Mary to be a perpetual virgin …

1. The prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, as cited in Matthew 1:23, says:
   Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son…

Notice the verse says “a son” and not “numerous sons and daughters”, indicating that the Virgin would bear only one child. The perpetual virginity of Mary thus fulfills this prophecy of Isaiah.

1. The throne of David was a hereditary throne. Jesus and any other sons of Mary (sons by Joseph) would be in the direct line of succession to the throne of David. However, since Jesus Christ’s reign on the throne of David is to be without end there was no need for additional children of Mary to insure a line of succession to the throne of David. The perpetual virginity of Mary therefore safeguards the teaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only Jewish Messiah, the son of David, whose reign will be without end.

 

[jay29]

Free Grace!:

Thanks so much for all the answers given so far. I’ve had very much to think about. That comes from thoughtful people like yourselves.

This is going to sound a little dumb, but this is something that is slowly dawning on me. This is tons more than just about the state of Mary’s hyman after she gave birth, isn’t it? I don’t mean to be crude by my word usage, so please, don’t take offense. I mean, of course, if she is “Ever Virgin” it is important that her hyman be intact, but this is really more than just about a peice of flesh, isn’t it? It’s about something grander, something more awesome, something that points us to God’s outstretched arms that beckon us to His embrace, isn’t it?

Am I getting somewhere near the ball park?

Anyway, please keep directing me with your posts.

God bless each of you.

F.G.

About the hyman issue. I have heard Protestants say if the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ there should be DNA in it to prove it. So if there is no DNA it is not true… The issues go FAR BEYOND earthly science/biology. Divine Mysteries go beyond human understanding. Another example is the Holy Trinity. To the common person 3 persons, one God doesn’t make sense, but it is true.

 

[longhawk]

I don’t know if everyone, or anyone, is going to like this, but what the heck!

I personally believe (not that my thoughts matter that much) that the Church ought to give some sort of special not to the Infancy Gospel of James. If you haven’t read it, you should–NOT THAT IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED SCRIPTURE–IT SHOULD NOT BE. It’s an apocryphal gospel.

However, whether the Church admits it or not (and I don’t know if it admits it), the book is probably the single most important source of Catholic Mariology.

–It was written somewhere between 70-120 years after the Resurrection, so it’s pretty close to the time of Jesus.

–It is the original source for the names of Mary’s parents, to whom the Church has ascribed sainthood.

–It is the source of the Catholic tradition of Mary being a temple virgin.

–It supports her perpetual virginity, from the time she’s found to be pregnant.

–It suggests that Joseph was older and had older children by the time he was betrothed to Mary, which offers a reasonable explanation for the “brothers of Jesus” references in Scripture.

Again, if you have not read it, you should. You can find it at the following link: earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html