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Valke2
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I haven’t run across any people like the ones you described.
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FaithofAbraham
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All believing Jews should be saying atheism disqualifies you from being a Jew. They don’t have a problem doing that with Messianic Jews.thats what orthodox jews are for. for saying who qualifies.
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Valke2
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That’s because most Messianic Jews were never Jewish to begin with. They were Christians. Jews who don’t believe in ritual law or who don’t believe in God, however, were still born Jewish.
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AgnosTheist
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aha! i’m beginning to piece evidences that shows FaithofAbraham as a messianic jew!!! 
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FaithofAbraham
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That’s a myth. There are Jews once converted Orthodox or born to a Jewish mother who later accepted Jesus. Once they believe in Jesus they are told they are no longer Jews anymore.
Even Jews for Judaism, who are most rabidly against Jewish conversion to Jesus, say as of 1990 there were over 600,00 real live Jews who agree with Christian beliefs.
So you have to find a better excuse than that for keeping the atheists.
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BlestOne
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Valke2… For what it is worth, I thought your joke was funny…
As far as it goes, I was always under the impression that some Jews feel it is more of a racial group than a religion when they identify themselves as Jewish.
What does it take for one of these Jews to be considered Jewish by mainstream Judiaism? To follow the ritual laws or to belong to a Temple or both?
As far as it goes, I was always under the impression that some Jews feel it is more of a racial group than a religion when they identify themselves as Jewish.
What does it take for one of these Jews to be considered Jewish by mainstream Judiaism? To follow the ritual laws or to belong to a Temple or both?
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FaithofAbraham
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If I said so then I would spend all my time defending why I am a Jew. I’d rather sit back in no man’s land and not have to defend any religion, only my own personal beliefs.aha! i’m beginning to piece evidences that shows FaithofAbraham as a messianic jew!!!
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1234
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Valke 2 has a right to joke about things that Catholics did to Jews in the not-so-distant past. I think that Jews who were being burned to death on blood libel charges found it pretty offensive!
So sorry, Ricky that YOU were offended! NOthing offensive should *ever *be posted on a forum!! You can’t make the past go away, Rocky. The abuses against the Jews are part of the world’s past–including yours.
The Jews are a complex religious ethnic group, bound together by a common past including the Holocaust, history, religion, culture, religious observances and many customs. Most Jews, irrespective of their religious belief, have a lot more in common with each other than they do with most Christians, particularly Catholics.
Jews cherish knowledge, learning, reason and logic, education, writing and achievement in any field, usually academics and science, but also sports (Sandy Coufax) and the arts, particularly music, in which they excel. Jews are major benefactors–to all, benefiting all, not just Israel or other Jews.
The Jewish religion emphasizes the family, tradition and continuity . It is not based on the miraculous.
Those Jewish atheists will probably join a reform temple when their son is a toddler, so that he, and they, will experience some of this continuity. And I’ll bet that their son was circumcised, even without a* bris!*
So sorry, Ricky that YOU were offended! NOthing offensive should *ever *be posted on a forum!! You can’t make the past go away, Rocky. The abuses against the Jews are part of the world’s past–including yours.
The Jews are a complex religious ethnic group, bound together by a common past including the Holocaust, history, religion, culture, religious observances and many customs. Most Jews, irrespective of their religious belief, have a lot more in common with each other than they do with most Christians, particularly Catholics.
Jews cherish knowledge, learning, reason and logic, education, writing and achievement in any field, usually academics and science, but also sports (Sandy Coufax) and the arts, particularly music, in which they excel. Jews are major benefactors–to all, benefiting all, not just Israel or other Jews.
The Jewish religion emphasizes the family, tradition and continuity . It is not based on the miraculous.
Those Jewish atheists will probably join a reform temple when their son is a toddler, so that he, and they, will experience some of this continuity. And I’ll bet that their son was circumcised, even without a* bris!*
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Maritsa
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That sounds like a description of Roman Catholics, too. Maybe Jews have more in common with the RC Church than you realize.
He was definitely not circumcised. The dad made that clear. And the boy is now a pre-schooler.
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AgnosTheist
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not according to the statistics that we have seen 2 weeks ago. wherein jews scored more than 40% in education & wealth, contrary to catholics which was only around 15%
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Valke2
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Jews for Judaism are not “rabid” against Jewish conversion to Jesus. They are specifically opposed to Jews for Jesus, a well known Christian based organization that has a history of trying to trick non-observant Jews into believing they can follow Jesus as God and still keep to Jewish beliefs. And the 500,000 Jews they are referring to are those involved with missionaries. They are talking about Jews who have converted. Not (or not just) Jews who accept Jesus and want to stay Jewish.
There’s no doubt that a Jew who does not profess belief in God has a greater potential to still practice Judaism than a Jew who converts to Christianity or believes Jesus was the Messiah or is God. I’m not sure why you have a problem with this belief. But in the end, it is not your problem. Unless you plan on converting.
Perhaps if there were a large “Jews for ATheism” missionary group, Jews for Judaism would address it as well. But the fact is that atheists are not organized to convince Jews to abandon their religion.
You keep trying to tie in the issue of athiesim with Messianic Judaism. They are two different topics. Messianic Judaism is not considered a form of Judaism among any of the other branches/sects of Judaism.
The degree to which an individual Jew has faith in God is not something most Jews feel is necessary to dwell on. There is an expression in Talmud. Take more interest in your soul than your neighbor’s soul and more interest in your neighbors body than your body. IN other words, worry about more about your own faith and less about your neighbor’s faith; worry about what you can do for your neighbor and less about what you can do for yourself.
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Valke2
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Once they believe in Jesus they don’t usually consider themselves Jewish. ANd I could probably count the number of Orthodox Jews that have converted to Christianity in the last 50 years on one hand.
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FaithofAbraham
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Yes they are, their antimissionaries are all over the Internet preaching their scripted speeches against Jesus. What’s even worse is that they slam the door on Jesus for Gentiles too but don’t bother offering a better alternative.
When is the last time you invited a Gentile to share your faith if you think it is so much better, or talked here about how observing mitzvot is fulfilling for you, and teaching Gentiles here how you do it?
I try to convert Judaism wherever I can. How does that make sense when the very first mitzvah is to know God exists? If you throw that Law away all the rest of anything in Judaism is based on a joke and lie.
Why should they when Judaism welcomes atheists?
They are the same topic in relation to stripping Jewishness from someone for certain things.
Bad apples tend to corrupt the bunch, and when Jews have historically been punished by God as a whole for sins of the soul, they should take an interest in health of the soul as well as the body. Unless they just like their Temples destroyed and being exiled and things like that.
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FaithofAbraham
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Sure they do if they call themselves Messianic Jews. I bet more than that have converted and more will as Judaism grows more secular.
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Maritsa
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I know some Messianic Jews. They’re basically Pentecostals who follow Jewish law. That doesn’t make sense to me, either, because it is a contradictory base for a religion to claim that Jesus was the telos, or fulfillment of the Law, and yet teach that we’re still under the law. I can at least respect that they keep the law as their religion teaches. That’s totally different from the atheists I met who hate God and anyone who believes in Him but still identify as Jewish.
Valke2: you said that it is acceptable to not believe in God and still be a Jew. Would you clarify that for me? Do you mean that it is possible to fulfill the law without belief in God? If so, that would mean they would have to be keeping the Jewish law despite their atheism, right?
Valke2: you said that it is acceptable to not believe in God and still be a Jew. Would you clarify that for me? Do you mean that it is possible to fulfill the law without belief in God? If so, that would mean they would have to be keeping the Jewish law despite their atheism, right?
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FaithofAbraham
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I know you asked him but here’s an example of why that seems wacky.
613 Mitzvot (Jewish Laws)
1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1).
So the very first one wouldn’t be kept.
Another important thing for Jews, one reason why they are the Chosen People, is to teach the rest of the world about God:
12. To learn Torah and to teach it (Deut. 6:7) (CCA14).
So this one atheists could do, but they would have to teach others to know that God exists, even though they reject that, which would be hypocritical to say the least.
I mean, they can keep laws all people should keep anyway like not lying, murdering, stealing etc.
But to say they are keeping the JEWISH Laws is pretty silly since they are supposed to originate with the Jewish God.
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Valke2
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You can be Jewish (i.e., born from a Jewish mother) and not follow the commandments. This doesn’t make you a religious Jew obviously. But you are still jewish, under jewish law. If you actively and publicly embrace a lifestyle that is contrary to Jewish beliefs, for example declaring that there is no God or that Jesus is God, then you are committing apostasy. You could be shunned by your community (some parents might even consider a child who does this as “dead” and sit shiva for them); but you are still a Jew. Under Jewish law, there really is no method to convert out of Judaism.
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Maritsa
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That makes sense.
What does sit shiva mean? Since the son isn’t circumcised, is he considered Jewish under Jewish law? I assume the dad didn’t formally convert since I know how long that takes, so is he considered Jewish?
What does sit shiva mean? Since the son isn’t circumcised, is he considered Jewish under Jewish law? I assume the dad didn’t formally convert since I know how long that takes, so is he considered Jewish?
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Valke2
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Sitting shiva is what a close relative does when someone dies. It is a period of mourning for a parent or sibling.
If a son is born Jewish, the parents failure to circumcise the son does not change this. The commandment to circumcise is the father’s responsibiltity (or both parents according to some modern sources).
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