Help me understand Catholicism vs Protestanism?

[Mark86]

The answer is definitely not any lack or fault in God. So then what could it be? That I did something wrong. That I lacked either faith or works.

That’s the mind-set that got me wondering about this. I hope it makes sense.

Not only does it make sense to me, what you described is exactly what I’m going through too. What you described is exactly my issue as well. As we speak, I’ve already mortally sinned yet again and will be off to Confession for it either tomorrow or Thursday once again to come back around and hope not to do it again all over again. It’s been like this since I became Catholic, for the same one or two sins too, over and over again once again. It’s frustrating! What else can we do but commit to persevere “to the end” no matter how many times we may fall now… the end is more important.

I totally totally hear what you’re saying and I really wish I could be more help in this regard because I know first hand what you’re going through… In fact I made a thread not so long ago called “What Am I Doing Wrong?” which basically asked the same question you just did.

All I can tell you is what the kind people here and my Confessors have been telling me when it comes to that “compulsion” toward a particular sin (like lust or masturbation)… you got to “stay busy” … you got to somehow find outlets and do something physical. You got to develop a personalized “rule of life” as if you were your own “religious order” of one, and commit to it. You need to reach out to others in some way. How? It depends. I really don’t know either. It’s difficult when you’re not sure where to start or what to do. There are options perhaps around your parish… I know there isn’t usually a lot going on at mine to get involved in though. But definitely take a look or ask your priest.

Please feel free to message me if you’d like and we can maybe support each other in this battle for chastity. I have a feeling we both need all the help we can get.

 

[SpeakKindly]

In a bite sized form as I understand it:

We are Christians and that means we are followers of Christ. We are transformed by grace through the sacraments because of God and this should lead to good works, like charity, for example. Not because we’re trying to be good for a reward, but because Jesus tells us to and Heaven is the place we end up if we are in a state of grace at the end of following our Lord. it’s my understanding that while Heaven is our ultimate hope, it’s not really the emphasis of our faith - the here and now is, much like how I understand Judaism is like.

Not exactly short, but oh well…

Some Protestants view our ultimate hope in Heaven being secured simply by our faith alone, and that our works on Earth have little consequence.

It’s my understanding that if we are truly trying to follow Christ some changes in our actions must take place in the form of loving others, and so while works aren’t always a sign of our state of grace, they’re still important for our journey in faith.

 

[probleman]

Not only does it make sense to me, what you described is exactly what I’m going through too. What you described is exactly my issue as well. As we speak, I’ve already mortally sinned yet again and will be off to Confession for it either tomorrow or Thursday once again to come back around and hope not to do it again all over again. It’s been like this since I became Catholic, for the same one or two sins too, over and over again once again. It’s frustrating! What else can we do but commit to persevere “to the end” no matter how many times we may fall now… the end is more important.

I totally totally hear what you’re saying and I really wish I could be more help in this regard because I know first hand what you’re going through… In fact I made a thread not so long ago called “What Am I Doing Wrong?” which basically asked the same question you just did.

All I can tell you is what the kind people here and my Confessors have been telling me when it comes to that “compulsion” toward a particular sin (like lust or masturbation)… you got to “stay busy” … you got to somehow find outlets and do something physical. You got to develop a personalized “rule of life” as if you were your own “religious order” of one, and commit to it. You need to reach out to others in some way. How? It depends. I really don’t know either. It’s difficult when you’re not sure where to start or what to do. There are options perhaps around your parish… I know there isn’t usually a lot going on at mine to get involved in though. But definitely take a look or ask your priest.

Please feel free to message me if you’d like and we can maybe support each other in this battle for chastity. I have a feeling we both need all the help we can get.

What I’ve been doing lately is trying to have a more personal encounter with Jesus. That has helped me in the past, but it’s easy to get caught up in life and neglect or forget about it.

Also I’m going to start reclaimsexualhealth.com next month. It looks like a good ministry, you might want to check it out too.

 

[Gorgias]

The particular fear I’ve had is that, after confession, the negative effects of my sins will still outweigh the graces I’m receiving, therefore making it probable that I will fall into some situation where I will mortally sin again. I’ve attributed this to the “temporal punishment” which I haven’t fully paid for yet, which I then try to make up by doing more penance.

Makes sense. Yet, in situations in which we’re entrenched in sinful behavior, it takes time to replace habits of vice with corresponding habits of virtue. In terms of penance, maybe some positive actions (things that are the polar opposite of your temptations) might help you establish virtuous habits, moreso than prayers might do.

But now I think that’s actually way off base. In all reality, my sins are very addictive in nature. I’ll wake up 6 days a week feeling completely normal, and have no mortal sins and very few venial sins (that I know of). But then, that 1 other day of the week, I’ll wake up with a completely different mind. … Now, tell me you don’t see the devil’s own words written right there!

Boy, isn’t that exactly how the devil works?!? Those little nudges in the wrong direction, at the times when we’re most likely to be weak and give in… they’re the worst! But, we know that Jesus is stronger than the devil; and, even when we stumble and fall, He’s there to offer a hand up and to dust us off and try again…!

That’s what makes me wonder, why did I reject the inspiration to pray, and accept the lie the devil sold me? Seems like a lack of faith.

“I do believe – help my unbelief!”, eh? Sometimes, though, it’s not a lack of faith – it’s the concupiscence (that tendency to fall to temptation) that we’ve inherited through original sin.

So then I started wondering, maybe I have not enough faith? But I’ve earnestly, oh ever so earnestly, asked for a great increase of faith, asked for Jesus to restore sight to my blind eyes, asked for every spiritual thing needed to conquer/overcome/nike (c.f. Revelation) these temptations! So if I asked but did not receive, then what?

Then, perhaps it’s not faith that you’re lacking.

So then what could it be? That I did something wrong. That I lacked either faith or works.

Perhaps it’s just that you’re struggling with moral behavior; there are faith-filled, works-heavy people out there with problems just like yours! Keep the faith; keep working toward developing virtuous habits; keep making recourse to the sacraments. It may take effort (after all, you didn’t fall into these habits in just a day!), but God is with you!!!

 

[Duane1966]

Well, hold on a second. The notion of ‘payment’ is a bit foreign to Catholic sensibilities. In Protestant theology, the notion of “penal substitution” is the explanation of how Jesus’ death and resurrection ‘work’: Jesus essentially “picks up the tab” for us. In this context, Jesus is simply a sort of ‘angel investor’ – it’s a good investment, with measurable return, and good things happen as a result. But, in this context, it’s just a business deal: Jesus hands over something of sufficient value to God, who stamps the promissory note “paid in full”, and that’s that. There’s no love, no sacrifice; only “I gave you this, Father, so now give me that.”

But, that’s not how Catholic theologians see it. Rather, the Church sees Jesus’ actions as not merely a kind of “making good” on a contract, but as creating a family relationship – a covenant – through His death and resurrection. Jesus’ death isn’t just a business deal: God looks at it as a true sacrifice. And, it’s the kind of sacrifice that touches God’s heart: through Jesus’ death and resurrection, God relents and opens the doors of paradise. Jesus’ sacrifice, then, is the means by which sin loses its ability to deprive us of eternal life. But, after accepting Jesus and being justified, if we turn away from God through sin, we ourselves are telling God “I don’t want salvation.” It’s an important distinction: if we sin, the doors of paradise are still open to us – but we ourselves are telling God “thanks, but no thanks.” It’s not that Jesus’ sacrifice makes us unaccountable for our sins or makes us unable to sin – both of which are things that some “once saved, always saved” theologies assert – it’s that Jesus’ sacrifice makes it possible for us to attain to heaven.

In this light, let’s look at the notion of ‘forgiveness’ and ‘punishment’. When a Catholic receives absolution, his sins are forgiven. Period, exclamation point, no ‘asterisk’. Just plain forgiven. But, here’s the thing: even though we are forgiven, we’ve still done damage to ourselves: the child who learned that he could take a cookie when Mom said “no cookies” or the adult who learned he could ‘get away’ with fornication have both been harmed by their sins. Both have been deformed by their sins. Even when they’re forgiven, a part of them walks away just a bit more broken than they were before they sinned.

So, the notion of ‘satisfaction’ (and of Purgatory) isn’t one of “incomplete forgiveness” or of “punishments left intact”. After all, Jesus’ sacrifice didn’t make sin consequence free, but rather, just impotent to damn us eternally (as long as we are contrite and ask forgiveness for them). Therefore, the notion of satisfaction really just admits that there is no imperfection in heaven, and although we’re forgiven, we’re still imperfect; therefore, we require purification prior to entering heaven.

Does that make sense? Can you see the distinction between these notions and Protestant theology?

Not ‘pain and punishment’, per se, but ‘cleansing’. When you jump in a mud puddle, Mom might say “I forgive you,” but that doesn’t mean that you don’t have a good bath in your future…

:clapping:

Well stated. I might add that Purgatory is a purifying that we are going to willingly choose, recognizing our brokenness at the end and hungry to be made whole.

 

[Della]

:clapping:

Well stated. I might add that Purgatory is a purifying that we are going to willingly choose, recognizing our brokenness at the end and hungry to be made whole.

Yes. C. S. Lewis stated it this way:

“Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.” “It may hurt, you know”—even so, sir.

 

[JonNC]

=Mark86;12411363]Thank God that there are so many well versed Catholics on this site who know their faith

Absolutely agree. I have been blessed by their knowledge and charity for a number of years, now. Welcome to CAF, and I hope you are blessed by them, as well.

Like you, I’m also a convert from Protestantism. I don’t know about you, but I used to assume that because I knew of Christ’s sacrifice and believed in what it did that I was pretty much all set for life… sins past, present and future were all atoned for. To me, everything else was just “showing off” or “trying to earn heaven.” So let me just ask, do you think you really had a full trusting relationship with God when you were a Protestant? Or was it more of a false sense of security brought on by wishful thinking? For me, I know it wasn’t so much about trust as it was about presumption (obviously I can’t speak for other Protestants).

Yeah, that’s a rather shallow view.

What many Protestants call the “uncertainty of one’s salvation” in Catholicism, and that “bad feeling” of not knowing how much of the temporal penalty we have to still work out is actually the very thing that tests its validity. Our feelings about something don’t always match the reality of the situation. We can feel “saved” and consoled and actually just be deceiving ourselves. On the other hand, we can feel “damned” and in desolation and actually be very pleasing to God. So in my mind, saying that all temporal penalty is paid for automatically almost becomes a license to sin, as Luther jokingly remarked: “sin and sin boldly…” That’s either presumption, or it’s a slippery slope towards presumption, which as the Catechism teaches us, is the “sin against the Holy Spirit.” It’s dangerous self-deluding pride. (Once again, not all Protestants are like that, I understand).

I think this is a misunderstanding of Luther’s comment. Its taken from a letter to Melanchthon, someone who would have understood the comment in context.
It wasn’t joking, it wasn’t granting license to sin, it wasn’t a dismissing of the necessity of repentance, confession and Holy Absolution, and it wasn’t permission to not grow in grace.

“If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner.”

Trust is not about looking at God and telling him “I’m saved, so make room for me up there” (which can lead to presumption). Trust is about not knowing to what extent you’re saved but knowing that you are loved, and then following God’s promptings, trusting all the while that he knows and that he will open up every avenue for you to reach salvation. That’s the Catholic way.

I would claim this as the Lutheran way, as well.

[Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire. - Luther

Jon

 

[Mark86]

I would claim this as the Lutheran way, as well.

Many modern day Protestant groups are as divorced from the Protestant reformers as they are from the Catholic Church. That’s probably the hallmark of Protestantism, the fact that it schisms out and changes at its very core over time depending on the prevailing views of the era until you wind up with the likes of the Westboro Baptists, the “prosperity gospel” and the various Fundamentalist absurdities that will each have their day and then will be long gone. Protestantism will continue to evolve and water itself out to the point of almost non-existence until the only visible remainder of ‘practiced Christianity’ left will be the “Church.” That’s what I think anyway.

 

[JonNC]

Many modern day Protestant groups are as divorced from the Protestant reformers as they are from the Catholic Church. That’s probably the hallmark of Protestantism, the fact that it schisms out and changes at its very core over time depending on the prevailing views of the era until you wind up with the likes of the Westboro Baptists, the “prosperity gospel” and the various Fundamentalist absurdities that will each have their day and then will be long gone. Protestantism will continue to evolve and water itself out to the point of almost non-existence until the only visible remainder of ‘practiced Christianity’ left will be the “Church.” That’s what I think anyway.

And virtually none of them were historically from the Lutheran tradition. Most are from the Reformed, or Anabaptist movements.
As a Lutheran, I am far more concerned about those who consider themselves Lutheran, and yet are drifting further away from scripture and the confessions; female clergy, acceptance of same-gender relationships, etc.
I really have no connection with other protestant traditions.
Jon

 

[Christian50]

I remembered back to my Protestant thinking, that Jesus took our actual sins on his shoulders and bore the punishment for them on the cross, and that it was already done and in the past, and that because of this, if we trust in his mercy towards us, and its infiniteness (literally, “non-run-out-ability”), then our sins are forgiven and no longer held against us, and the punishment for them is already done, and I remembered the great joy it gave me.

But my new Catholic understanding of that last sentence, is that only the fullness of our eternal punishment is now paid for, but only part of the temporal (literally “in this life and/or purgatory”) punishment is paid for, and the rest needs to be paid for, either by my willing penance, or by further punishments from God.

That last part is what scared me a lot when I first became Catholic. Because, the line was very blurry on just how much temporal punishment is still due us for our sins. Especially extremely grave ones like mine, whether or not they’re habitual.

So, sometimes I still wish I could have that same joy I once had as a Protestant, when I never made this distinction, and trusted fully that all my punishment was taken up on the cross by Jesus, and trusted completely and fully in God that any further suffering I had in this life would be either minimal, or only abundant due to sharing in Christ’s suffering in a special way, drawing me closer to Him on the cross. But instead, now I always have this fear after confession, that there’s still a lot more pain and punishment coming my way.

Hello Probleman,

Baptism removes all stain of original sin, all eternal punishment for actual sins and removes all temporal punishment for those actual sins committed.

In Catholic theology; sin has two consequences, or two punishments (CCC 1472).

The first is eternal punishment, in which the soul loses heaven and is confined to an eternity in hell.
This punishment is expiated through Christ’s merit on the cross (if we die in the state of grace).

For our eternal punishment Christ on the cross made the reparation by suffered the penalty for our sins. So, for Christ’s merit on the cross we have the forgiveness of our sins of eternal punishment.

The second is temporal punishment.
This temporal punishment remains even after our sin is forgiven.
For the temporal punishment of our sins Christ’s death on the cross didn’t make the reparation.

So, the temporal punishment of our sins can be expiated by our own merit by making reparation. This reparation is done by; suffering the penalty of our temporal punishment in purgatory.

We have a chance to expiate our temporal punishment fully or partly in this life by indulgences.

Indulgences;

This technical definition can be phrased simply as, “An indulgence is what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal punishment of our sins to which we are subject even though our sins have been forgiven.”

To put it simply an indulgence is the removal of part or all the temporal punishment due in Purgatory.

For the above reasons, in Catholic theology purgatory is an absolute necessity.

Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with our punishments that are left after our sins have been forgiven.

Continued

 

[Christian50]

We must do penance (more than the sacramental penance imposed by the priest) in order to expiate the temporal punishment for our sins.

We can do that in this life, or if we fail to do that, we will have a chance to do it in purgatory after we die (if we die in a state of grace).

But the Church has an incredible treasure of graces at her disposal, built up through the superabundant merits of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints.

Our membership of the Communion of the Saints entitles us to call on this treasury of graces.

“Thus the Church does not simply want to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.” (CCC 1478)

This is what the Church calls “Indulgences.”

An indulgence can be plenary or partial.

A plenary indulgence expiates all the temporal punishment for sin. That means that if you were to die in a state of grace, having obtained a plenary indulgence, and not sinned since obtaining the indulgence, you would go straight to Heaven.

A partial indulgence does not expiate all the temporal punishment for sin.

A partial indulgence is obtained whenever we think pious thoughts, pray, do good works, charity, etc. That is, the Church has recognized that all piety is in some way indulgenced.

To obtain an indulgence, a person must attend confession and communion within 8 days (either side) of the indulgenced act or prayer and pray for the Holy Father’s intentions (traditionally one Our Father and one Hail Mary). In addition, to obtain a plenary indulgence, one must be completely expiated from one’s sins, even venial sins.
If one does not have complete expiation from temporal punishment, then the indulgence is only partial.

Indulgences can also be applied to the souls in Purgatory.
Therefore, if you wish, you may apply a plenary indulgence or partial indulgence you have obtained for the benefit of a soul in purgatory.

In the dialog between Catholics and Protestants on purgatory the debate boils down that on the cross Christ’s death paid the penalty for the temporal punishment of our sins or did not.

By using Catholic terminology;

According to Catholic position; on the cross Christ’s death didn’t pay the penalty for the temporal punishment of our sins.

So, our temporal punishment due in Purgatory.

We can do that in this life (by our own merit with indulgences), or if we fail to do our temporal punishment in this life, we have a chance to do it in purgatory (by the sufferings of our punishment) after we die (if we die in the state of grace).
So, in Catholic theology purgatory is an absolute necessity.

According to protestant position; on the cross Christ’s death paid the penalty for every kind of the punishments of our sins.

As the result; the way God cleanses us instantly at baptism without attending purgatory, the same way God cleanses us instantly (by Christ’s merit on the cross) at our death without attending purgatory.

As Christ’s death on the cross paid the penalty for our temporal punishment, we have no temporal punishment.
So, in Protestant theology purgatory is absolutely needless.

CONCLUSION

If the Catholic position is correct; then the Protestants will have an unpleasant surprise in purgatory.

If the Protestant position is correct; then the Catholics will have a pleasant surprise because of the way they had an instant cleansing (by Christ’s merit on the cross) at their baptism, the same way they will have an instant cleansing (by Christ’s merit on the cross) at their death and they instantly go straight to heaven in Heavenly Glory.

God bless.

Christian

 

[sudy]

Just a couple of things I’d like to say, if you don’t mind.

The particular fear I’ve had is that, after confession, the negative effects of my sins will still outweigh the graces I’m receiving, therefore making it probable that I will fall into some situation where I will mortally sin again.

I believe that when you’ve confessed, you are forgiven but you carry some part of that damage with you, as somebody else mentioned… in Isaiah 25:8, it tells us that God will take away His people’s shame. This verse means a lot to me anyway because I feel great shame about my sins… even many years after confessing them, so that verse helps me

In all reality, my sins are very addictive in nature. I’ll wake up 6 days a week feeling completely normal, and have no mortal sins and very few venial sins (that I know of). But then, that 1 other day of the week, I’ll wake up with a completely different mind. Everything sexual will suddenly seem backwards. Good morals will seem totally confusing, and immoral acts will seem like the best thing in the world. On those days, there’s a faint tug in the back of my mind that, no, this is a wrong thing, stop thinking about it or fantasizing about it, and pray or read something spiritual. But the easily overwhelming/overriding thought is to give in to this thing, there’s nothing wrong with it, go for it, it’s not really all that bad.

1 Corinthians 10:13 is important to mention here. God makes it possible to withstand temptation. Sometimes it takes time to overcome addictive/habitual behaviour but we must keep trying and it will get easier with practice, and we have to help ourselves too by trying to put things that trigger our bad behaviour out of reach to give us a fighting chance. Just to add that I’m working to overcome my own sins and this is what I’m doing.

 

[Ignatius]

I was a well-versed Protestant before becoming Catholic. Since my conversion, I’ve had a lot of time with the “by faith” part, often leaning way too much on “works” and penance. I’ve also put too much effort on learning the fancy terminology (a la Thomas Aquinas) instead of actually understanding the Catholic position in a practical and applicable way. But it’s been a few years, so I’m ready now to understand with a lot less fear and more trust.

So can someone explain to me, in a simple paragraph (don’t worry, legalese isn’t necessary, plain English works fine), the Catholic position on “faith” and “works”?

We are saved by Grace through Faith working in Love.

This may help: fisheaters.com/solafide.html.
and this: bible.ca/ef/expository-ephesians-2-8-10.htm