Help me understand OT immorality

[jordanmhall]

I’m seeking guidance from everyone to help me clear up my confusion with the immorality in the Old Testament. I just finished reading the New Testament as well as the Old Testament with the hopes of being lead closer to God - but the opposite happened. If I listed everything that was a stumbling block for me from the Old Testament, it would take up too much space and no one wants to read through all of it anyway perhaps. So here are just a few:

God commands the Jews to stone people to death for adultery, disobedient children, a woman not being a virgin when married, working on a Sunday, and homosexuality. The person condemned is buried up to their neck in the ground so only their head is exposed, and people take turns throwing stones at their head until they have so much brain damage and internal bleeding they die. Just think about that.

Numbers 31-18: Moses commands his people to keep young virgin girls for themselves as spoils of war. Needless to say, they were raped. We all know why virgin girls are captives during war historically. So I don’t think this can be denied.

2 Samuel 12:15 God makes the illegitimate child of David get sick so it dies after 7 days of suffering.

Psalm 137 Says to be happy for dashing babies against rocks. Presumably the babies of pagans.

Deuteronomy 25:11 Says to cut the hand off any woman who interferes in a fight between 2 men, and to show no mercy.

Exodus 21:20 Says you can beat your slave as much as you want, as long as they recover after a few days.

The conquests of Joshua, killing men/women/children/animals “…in a great slaughter”.

God changes his mind a lot during their time in the desert; Moses would have to get God to “chill out” before he killed everyone. Sometimes God would kill people anyway, like the guy who touched the Ark because some donkeys about knocked it over. Or when God caught some dude on fire because he did a sacrifice wrong (a relative to Aaron I think it was).

This is just to name a few things guys. I’ve really struggled with this. I want to believe in Christ (I was raised Catholic and was just confirmed this past Easter), but I don’t know what to think about these things. Some tell me just not to worry about the Old Testament, because were under the new covenant. But they forget Jesus was Jewish lol He believed this stuff, so much in fact that when one of the pharisees asked Jesus if he came to destroy the law, he said no - he came to fulfill it. So the OT can’t be pushed aside. What do you think guys. Please help.

 

[Reuben_J]

The OT is a narrative, not that we should do them. Do not confuse on this. We can only learn from them, not to do the wrong but that is righteous, which is plenty.

As for laws, there were ceremonial/administrative laws and moral laws. The former were fulfilled by the New Testaments and therefore irrelevant now but the latter do not change.

Perhaps you look through this perspective first and then find out your problem.

 

[KevinK]

The OT is a narrative, not that we should do them.

The O.T. people were commanded to do them. They are laws. What are you talking about?

 

[Reuben_J]

The OT is a narrative. It tell you what happened to these people. It did not tell you to follow them. You can only learn from their experiences. You do not have to kill babies or stone adulterers. But there are good things that these people do. Those you can follow as your role models.

 

[jordanmhall]

Where does it say in the OT “You should not do these laws. This is just a narrative”? If I was to learn from them, I would dash babies against rocks. I’m really not trying to be confrontational either, these are just very explicit verses from the Bible and I"m trying to reconcile them with contemporary morality.

 

[jordanmhall]

It did say to follow them. In fact, if you didn’t follow them, there were consequences. For example, if you did not live in chastity as a woman, and your husband found out you weren’t a virgin on your wedding night, the bible says to take that woman to her fathers house and stone her to death.

 

[Reuben_J]

Your guideline would be the new Testaments. There are many teachings of Jesus that is made clear for you. There you will find what’s right and what’s wrong.

Please give me example, may be I will explain.

 

[Reuben_J]

It did say to follow them. In fact, if you didn’t follow them, there were consequences. For example, if you did not live in chastity as a woman, and your husband found out you weren’t a virgin on your wedding night, the bible says to take that woman to her fathers house and stone her to death.

And Jesus said, throw those stones if you have never sinned (paraphrased) and nobody did. And Jesus said, and so I will not stone you, go and sin no more.

 

[goout]

Pope Benedict’s Verbum Domini sec’s 42 and 44.
Bp Robert Barron “old Testament Violence”.
CCC has a basic section on the senses of Scripture.
Good places to start.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Let me give you this for a start.
You read the OT through Christian eyes. We’ve had two thousand years of theological and social development.
So it’s easy for you to “judge”.

It’s a very common mistake for new readers of the Bible to make the assumption that the ancient days were like Mr Rogers Neighborhood, where everybody calmly discussed their differences (only they were wearing robes and riding camels) until the mean Israelites showed up with their harsh God and the party was over…

But the OT days were nothing like our times.
What we know of every pagan culture was that the head of the family had every right to kill his wife, children, and slaves for any reason or no reason at all.
The Old Testament laws put brakes on that philosophy. Yes, a man could have a member of his household put to death, but it had to be for specific reasons.
Also, he had to bring the offending party to the elders before he could proceed. So it was kind of like having a court of law. Which wasn’t the case under the pagan system.

It’s great that you want to learn more! Read history and philosophy and theology and science and never stop learning.

Peace!

 

[Gorgias]

If I listed everything that was a stumbling block for me from the Old Testament, it would take up too much space

That’s why it’s important to participate in a good Bible study, rather than simply the reading the Bible individually and without knowledge of the historical and cultural context of Old Testament times.

@0Scarlett_nidiyilii gave you some good advice, and addressed a number of your questions. Let me pick up on a few others…

jordanmhall:

So here are just a few:

God commands the Jews to stone people to death for adultery

Actually, prior to the Mosaic covenant, only the woman would be likely to be stoned. The innovation in this law was to put men on notice: if you commit adultery, your life is in jeopardy, too!

a woman not being a virgin when married

Actually, that wasn’t an innovation, but was already part and parcel of the culture of the day. Sadly, in those days, women were treated like little more than chattel: their primary value to the community was bearing children (in order to keep the community strong). In a sense, husbands wanted to be certain that they weren’t receiving “damaged goods”.

In addition, if a woman entered a marriage having already had sex, there would nearly always be a question as to the parentage of her first child. If her first child was the progeny of another man – perhaps someone outside the family or the tribe or the clan – then there would be serious issues with loyalty (not to mention implications to inheritance considerations).

So, I’m not defending it, but merely pointing out some of the dynamics of the culture of those places and times.

working on a Sunday

Not sure what the problem is with this. It proceeds from the very beginning of the Bible – God rested on the seventh day, according to one of the creation epics.

homosexuality

Again, this is something that was consistent throughout history. What’s the issue you’re raising?

The person condemned is buried up to their neck in the ground so only their head is exposed, and people take turns throwing stones at their head until they have so much brain damage and internal bleeding they die. Just think about that.

I don’t recall that prescription. Can you point me to a Scripture reference, please?

Numbers 31-18: Moses commands his people to keep young virgin girls for themselves as spoils of war. Needless to say, they were raped. We all know why virgin girls are captives during war historically. So I don’t think this can be denied.

Actually, they kept them as wives.

2 Samuel 12:15 God makes the illegitimate child of David get sick so it dies after 7 days of suffering.

We can ask whether God caused it, or whether that was the assumption of David (and of the Scriptural writer). They had no concept of ‘secondary causation’ back then, so everything that happened was presumed to be from the finger of God Himself.

I’ll stop there for now, to give you a chance to respond, before picking up with your other references…

Blessings,
G.

 

[Kei]

The punishment for sin was bargain-able. The only one not able to be bargained out of was murder. It was assumed you would bargain, typically the punishment was a fine. In the Ancient Near East.
But note now what it teaches: the punishment for sin is death.

Numbers 31-18: Moses commands his people to keep young virgin girls for themselves as spoils of war. Needless to say, they were raped. We all know why virgin girls are captives during war historically. So I don’t think this can be denied.

Uh, wait wait wait! No, no! There is indeed need to say. You are definitely reading that into the passage. I suppose this may be understandable if you have no idea about the culture they lived in. You can’t expect to just pick up something from thousands of years and miles away and just understand it, do you? Also, it was working on Saturday, not Sunday, that constituted working on the Sabbath. And working on the Sabbath likely implied a traitor of sorts, though you might not understand how that is possible.
There’s a great many things to learn.

Step one is to not take what you think is “clear” as so clear.

Second step is learning the social contexts of what’s going on.

Third step is to interpret everything in the Bible from the ending.

 

[Wingz]

Many people try to dismiss the OT saying it doesn’t apply anymore however it is still important to understand the Bible as a whole and can be a stumbling block for some. But here are some things to know.

1. Stoning people to death happened rarely. The death sentence could only be sentenced on someone by a group of elder after a trial in which two or three witnesses testified. Even if the person was found guilty and sentenced to death a sacrificial animal could take their place. The death sentence was meant to represent Jesus’ death and show the profound effects sin could have.
2. Burying people to the neck and stoning them is the modern way of stoning. The Isrealites actually had laws about how to stone. First they would push someone off a platform twice the persons height. This is to make the death as quick as possible without damaging the persons bones. If this didn’t work they would then throw a large stone and if it still didn’t work then the stoning would begin.

 

[Tulitas]

Again, get a good history book and participate in a good Bible study.
The OT has ever genre of writing.
And. those times were brutal. People ascribed lots of things to God’s wrath.
Like saying illness was always the result of sin. Because they didn’t understand some illnesses, they assumed it was what God wanted.
God wants no one to suffer.

Get good instruction and you will cease to be confused.

 

[Wingz]

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” -Matthew 10:28

In the OT, God punishes those with “spiritual offenses” with physical punishment (death). Sin separates us from God and can lead to our “second death” and punishment in the eternal fire. Physical death or stoning is nothing compared to eternal punishment.
And the sin of one person can lead to the sin of others. Therefore stoning shows the impact of sin and foreshadows Jesus sacrifice.

 

[joeybaggz]

Might God have allowed the barbarism of the day, so that the words of His Son, “love your neighbor as yourself” would have a more profound and impactful meaning. I’ve always believed it is easier to understand white, when you completely understand black.

 

[BlackFriar]

What exactly is the problem?
You seem to assume God directly told OT figures to write these laws and do these things?

Aren’t they just leaders doing what all leaders do - using God to justify their own deeds and imperfect laws. Some were acceptable, and perhaps even necessary, at the time. We all think God is on our side…even to the extent of exaggerating that we are following what God would want when in fact we don’t know for sure.

Knowledge of natural law is a slow process, no one starts out holy do they.

 

[Wingz]

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36
The law was told to OT figures by God and He did tell them to do these things according to Scripture.

You could say that it is not true and that God did not actually tell the authors to write that or to do these things. The authors just said that God told them to do it in order to justify their laws but that goes against teaching that the Bible is true and the written word of God

 

[BlackFriar]

The authors just said that God told them to do it in order to justify their laws but that goes against teaching that the Bible is true and the written word of God

What it goes against is a gullible and naiive view of the truth and inerrancy of the Bible.
There is in fact no such thing as “Gospel Truth” as fundamentalist Protestants use that phrase.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Erm, this was a man, who presumably had seen miracle after miracle, who had been rescued from slavery by the action of God, Himself, now acting in open rebellion against that same God who had rescued him and his people out of Egypt.