I have to agree. Our household income is relatively high compared to most people our ages (mid-late 20s), and we wouldn’t even consider $1400 for rent alone (MAYBE a mortgage, if we were trying to pay it off quickly)… and we don’t have any children yet.I’m afraid the answer to the young people’s situation may be leaving California, or at least leaving expensive California. Young families in their situation can’t afford $1400 rent. Heck, my family is considerably more prosperous, and we were really choking on $1450 rent a year ago.
Being very firm about reducing housing costs is one of the keys to staying afloat. Ideally, housing should consume no more than 25% of income. 50% of income is the danger zone for housing costs–once you are laying out 50% of income in housing costs, it’s almost impossible to get traction.
I don’t pay $1400 and we have a 4 bedroom, 3 bath, house with a sizable yard, that we own.I have to agree. Our household income is relatively high compared to most people our ages (mid-late 20s), and we wouldn’t even consider $1400 for rent alone (MAYBE a mortgage, if we were trying to pay it off quickly)… and we don’t have any children yet.
It seems as though the problem isn’t so much that they’re having children, it’s that the cost of living in that area is more than they can afford.
As an only (and lonely) child and the mother of two children who have no cousins, while their Grandparents have reaped the beautiful benefits of coming from large families, I see a lot of truth in this.Satan is alive and well, and working in Western society in order to bring about its collapse. One of the most effective ways he can do that is by convincing us we do not need to procreate. This is Population Control and it has several prongs, some of which are contraception, abortion, and homosexuality. Dad, you are of a certain generation which grew up on the Pill and took it for granted that nice people should have 2.3 children and then get sterilized lest they overrun the planet. Your generation was into Free Love, which meant sex “free” of consequence. I hate to burst your bubble but the outcome of sex is pregnancy and the outcome of pregnancy is a child. Your daughter is one of the lucky ones. She found a great husband and she completed a college education and then found her vocation is to raise a large family. They are in a tiny minority of Catholic couples today who believe and observe the Natural Law doctrines of the Church. They deserve to be commended and blessed for discerning that God’s plan does not involve the invasive alteration of their fertility by artificial means, and being old enough to know the difference between the commandment to honor their father and mother vs. the commandment to love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our mind, and all our strength.
You have decided that this matter of her education is a hill you are going to die on; I feel sorry that it will drive a wedge between you and her and her husband. It is probably tearing her apart right now that she feels she cannot live up to your standards. Many parents would feel happy and blessed to have more and more grandchildren, but right now your daughter is wondering why God’s plan and your plan are so glaringly different. I recommend that you spend some time in prayerful discernment. Perhaps you should also consult with the Catholic groom’s side of the family. If they are also faithful Catholics then perhaps they will have some more wisdom for you that this impersonal and anonymous forum cannot provide. You and your family will definitely be in my prayers. God bless you.
AMEN! I have a law degree, two young kids, an a husband who walked out a week before my youngest’s first birthday, after I had given up my job to be a mom and help support his career. All I have to show for my degree right now is about $100,000 worth of debt.FordDad,
Well, you may simply have to let this go. These choices are up to your daughter, as much as you might wish something different for her. I have a Bachelors in Biology and a Masters in NPO, and am as poor as they get. Illnesses, layoffs, part-time work, all contributed to that poverty and my degrees frankly did nothing for me in terms of wages or the types of jobs I was able to get. I even had to relinquish all my retirement funds to support myself during illnesses. The future is just not ours to predict.
I am not against higher education, but frankly it is way over-rated. Perhaps your daughter would be able to get a certificate from a trade school or something that would help her as much as anything else. I do think the husband ought to get a little more invested in finding better work, but maybe he is doing all he can.
You know, if you help too much they may never figure out how to move on. If you are always there to rescue them they may feel a little to safe for their own good. Easy to say and hard to do. And of course I would never let children go without, but maybe you need to cut off some of the help you have provided.
I do hope things can improve for her, and I will pray for God to help your family --all of them.
RCIA is not going to address this issue. At least, mine didn’t. And one of the presenters who was expecting twins with 2 at home declared to the entire group that, ‘this is it for us’.FordDad,
If I were you, I would sit her down and tell her that altho you have no plans to convert, you plan to go to RCIA to learn more about her new faith. Then do some reading, like Home Sweet Rome by Scott and Kimberley Hahn, and Catholicism for Dummies (the orange one!!!), and learn more about Catholicism until the classes start, usually ij September. Call the office of a nearby parish and explain to them that altho you do not want to convert you wantto learn more about your daughter’s faith and so wish to attend the classes.
This may give you a better understanding of where she and her husband are coming from, esp if you can attend RCIA classes under the same priest under whom she learned her faith.
Right now between the two of you there are two very different worldviews. Sometimes we have to learn that our children are God’s children too, and that He does not care for them through us but directly, Himself. It can be very difficult to learn this–my oldest is in her 20s and I struggle with it still.
Surely there are suburbs nearby… if not, relocating and going it alone might be the only reasonable option. If so, they may surprise you with how well they manage without ‘in person help’. They wouldn’t be the first young couple to be raising 4 kids alone, and they won’t be the last.My daughter is in a 1,000 sq foot 2 bedroom condo. No yard. This is as bare bones cheap as our area gets besides living in a gang ridden area or renting a room in someone’s home (about 900.00)
Leaving is not an option. Both her sisters are local and both my son in law’s parents and siblings are here. They need the in person help too much to leave and my son in law’s business can’t relocate.
You may never get to see what you want here, because it’s not your life. You need to let it go.
- We sometimes pay entire bills, and in fact their electricity bill comes right to our house because my wife was making herself sick thinking about their electricity being turned off. I think their rent is about 1400 a month (very cheap in this area) and we will often pay half.
- They are on mediCal. Not on food stamps, I won’t allow it. I am not going to have my child begging for free food from the government when I can provide it for her.
- MediCal
- Honestly both. I want to see the grandkids have opportunities and I don’t want them to constantly hear “We can’t afford that.” And look, I am not saying they need to live in a mansion, attend the most prestigious schools, go to Hawaii twice a year and drive a Rolls. Come on. What I would like to see is that if one shows an aptitude for, say, piano and wants to play - that that child can have the opportunity for quality lessons. Or if one is great at tennis, that that child can be involved in competitive tennis. What I would like to see is that they can once in a while take a modest vacation as a family, and not STRESS about finances all the time. I would like to see my daughter be able to get a manicure once a month, or to see them be able to hire a sitter and go out to eat for their anniversary. I want things that normal people have. They don’t need to join the country club or fly first-class. We never did those things either. What I would like is if EVERYTHING were not out of their reach. What I would like to know is that if one of the children became very ill, that they could PICK their doctor instead of going where the government says they can. What I would like is for the family to have options, choices, and some flexibility. I would like them to sleep easy at night, which I know they are not right now. I feel that the continual state of flux that the family is in due to the successive pregnancies is not healthy. I think they need a break, to regroup, to figure out a plan for the future. That is hard to do when my daughter is ALWAYS hung over a toilet, exhausted, nursing a newborn, etc.
Alright, I’m in the minority here, but I think that your concerns here are valid, and I see nothing wrong with your desire for your daughter and her family to achieve some basic level of financial independence and security. The truth is that no matter how well intentioned, you’re simply not going to be able to supplement their income forever.Okay.
- Every month we give them money for rent, utilities, medicine, things like clothing for the kids. On top of this, my wife often does their grocery shopping or “picks up something at Target” for the children. Sometimes they ask for the funds, and sometimes we offer. We always give them the money. No, they are not frittering away funds on movies, trips, restaurants, etc. They are really that broke.
- We sometimes pay entire bills, and in fact their electricity bill comes right to our house because my wife was making herself sick thinking about their electricity being turned off. I think their rent is about 1400 a month (very cheap in this area) and we will often pay half.
- They are on mediCal. Not on food stamps, I won’t allow it. I am not going to have my child begging for free food from the government when I can provide it for her.
- MediCal
- Honestly both. I want to see the grandkids have opportunities and I don’t want them to constantly hear “We can’t afford that.” And look, I am not saying they need to live in a mansion, attend the most prestigious schools, go to Hawaii twice a year and drive a Rolls. Come on. What I would like to see is that if one shows an aptitude for, say, piano and wants to play - that that child can have the opportunity for quality lessons. Or if one is great at tennis, that that child can be involved in competitive tennis. What I would like to see is that they can once in a while take a modest vacation as a family, and not STRESS about finances all the time. I would like to see my daughter be able to get a manicure once a month, or to see them be able to hire a sitter and go out to eat for their anniversary. I want things that normal people have. They don’t need to join the country club or fly first-class. We never did those things either. What I would like is if EVERYTHING were not out of their reach. What I would like to know is that if one of the children became very ill, that they could PICK their doctor instead of going where the government says they can. What I would like is for the family to have options, choices, and some flexibility. I would like them to sleep easy at night, which I know they are not right now. I feel that the continual state of flux that the family is in due to the successive pregnancies is not healthy. I think they need a break, to regroup, to figure out a plan for the future. That is hard to do when my daughter is ALWAYS hung over a toilet, exhausted, nursing a newborn, etc.
I could not agree more. And this is a 100 percent faithful Catholic answer.Alright, I’m in the minority here, but I think that your concerns here are valid, and I see nothing wrong with your desire for your daughter and her family to achieve some basic level of financial independence and security. The truth is that no matter how well intentioned, you’re simply not going to be able to supplement their income forever.
You’ll also get a lot of people on here that will tell you that a lot of your concerns come down to pride (not wanting to see them on government assistance) and frivolity (wanting your daughter to have some form of life outside of diapers and nursing). I, on the other hand, agree with you not wanting your family taking government handouts when you can help. There used to be a time when people were ashamed of having to rely on the government to feed their families, but evidently now it’s cool since everyone’s doing it. I also think that anyone who says your daughter doesn’t need anything frivolous like an hour away from 4 screaming kids every now and then is crazy, and either not a parent or not being very honest with themselves.
Here’s the real issue as I see it: You’re daughter has some serious issues related to financial independence and possibly money management that need to be addressed. right now, without addressing some of the more pressing issues. The thing is, none of this is a problem that stems from her being Catholic - either directly or indirectly.
From the website of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops:
"Are couples expected to leave their family size entirely to chance?
Certainly not. The Church teaches that a couple may generously decide to have a large family, or may for serious reasons choose not to have more children for the time being or even for an indefinite period (Humanae Vitae, no. 10).
In married life, serious circumstances—financial, physical, psychological, or those involving responsibilities to other family members—may arise to make an increase in family size untimely. The Church understands this, while encouraging couples to take a generous view of children."
Just my opinion, but I think that not being able to adequately provide for the children you already have is probably a “serious circumstance” that would make an increase in family size untimely.
AndI think she’s also making very poor decisions about having more kids right now,
Without those two judgements your response is something I agree `100% with. You are not in the minority if you could just live with the post without the things I took out. And it is one that you could back up with Catholic teaching and theology.She’s either woefully mistaken about what the Church teaches about family planning, or she’s simply using it as a convenient excuse to explain away another pregnancy that - given the information you’ve provided - seems to be ill timed at best.
I’ll concede the first point. That’s my read on the situation but it’s only my opinion.I could not agree more. And this is a 100 percent faithful Catholic answer.
However I took out the following:
And
Without those two judgements your response is something I agree `100% with. You are not in the minority if you could just live with the post without the things I took out. And it is one that you could back up with Catholic teaching and theology.
The other part… not so much.
While I don’t disagree with some of these options, salary is often times adjusted to compensate for cost of living in various areas - I know that’s true in my field. This plan is fine if SIL can make comparable money in a lower cost of living area. It doesn’t work so well if he has to take a pay-cut commensurate with the going rate in the lower cost of living area and maintains the same debt:income ratio.FordDad1958 said:
"My daughter is in a 1,000 sq foot 2 bedroom condo. No yard. This is as bare bones cheap as our area gets besides living in a gang ridden area or renting a room in someone’s home (about 900.00)
“Leaving is not an option. Both her sisters are local and both my son in law’s parents and siblings are here. They need the in person help too much to leave and my son in law’s business can’t relocate.”
There are huge internal contradictions in your thinking here.
To rephrase:
Do you see the problems with the logic there?
- They live in a very small condo that’s not nearly big enough for six and there’s no yard for the children to play. Oh, and this tiny condo costs $1400 a month and they can’t afford $1400 a month.
- They can’t leave because the SIL’s job, which doesn’t pay enough to support the family in this cost-of-living environment, is in your area.
There are plenty of places in the country where $1,000 a month would pay for rent on an actual single family home with a yard. This young family desperately needs financial independence, security and dignity, and they’re not going to find it while living in a 2 bedroom condo in an area that they can’t afford.
Not to be cold, but if they had a little bit more disposable income, they’d be able to pay for babysitters, mother’s day out or preschool.
Grandmas and grandpas, aunts and uncles and cousins are all wonderful, but one also needs dignity and space for a growing family.
Coming from a family of eight children, I know who was enthusiastic at a new baby announcement…the rest of the children — we went crazy with excitement! We were a fun group. :whacky::whacky::whacky::whacky::whacky::whacky::whacky::whacky:It is devastating to moms when each time a new baby is announced they are responded to with negative comments instead of congratulations. Nothing hurts more than someone not embracing your children with love.
I think here we’re getting closer to some of the real problems. What is his business such that he can’t possibly live anywhere else? My (then) husband and I couldn’t afford much of a house in the large metro area where he worked. We chose a place farther out where we could have a decent house well within our means, accepting the trade-off of a long commute. But these are choices adults have to make.My daughter is in a 1,000 sq foot 2 bedroom condo. No yard. This is as bare bones cheap as our area gets besides living in a gang ridden area or renting a room in someone’s home (about 900.00)
Leaving is not an option. Both her sisters are local and both my son in law’s parents and siblings are here. They need the in person help too much to leave and my son in law’s business can’t relocate.
You are right, and I agree with you. But as others have pointed out, for all we know, this couple is using NFP, but no form of birth control is infallible, and neither is NFP. My sister is happy to tell everyone that all three of her children were ‘accidents.’ (She uses birth control.) Some people are far more fertile than others. But in the very judgmental society we live in, maybe she says ‘we’re leaving it up to God’ both as the way she expresses their choice to use NFP, and as a way of avoiding saying, “We were using it and got pregnant anyway.”I think she’s also making very poor decisions about having more kids right now, without addressing some of the more pressing issues. …From the website of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops:
"Are couples expected to leave their family size entirely to chance?
Certainly not. The Church teaches that a couple may generously decide to have a large family, or may for serious reasons choose not to have more children for the time being or even for an indefinite period (Humanae Vitae, no. 10).
No, you are wrong. While one may use NFP and may discern to limit family size there is nothing in Church teaching that mandates it. Seriously step back for a second and think about it. Would you say that the poor Catholics in war torn areas of third world countries should not procreate? No, the Church has never taught this historically or geographically. When you judge the daughter’s faith this way you are the same as those who stare judgingly at someone for not having MORE kids. Quite simply the Daughter could have that mindset and be in line with the Church, she could also have your mindset and think it imprudent and be in line with the Church. The Church does not now, nor ever has taught that a poor child or one who is starving or one who is brought into persecution was ill conceived. Just think of some of the saints who were born to Holy parents with little to no ability to really adequately care for them in the way we Americans deem appropriate. Not to mention the environment that Jesus was born in. Oppression, bad politics, poverty, and persecution. They had to flee to another country just to keep him alive.I’ll concede the first point. That’s my read on the situation but it’s only my opinion.
The second point, however, is somewhat important. The OP came here to ostensibly try to understand the Catholic POV on family size, based on what his daughter is telling him. Here is what he said in the OP:
“At this point her mother, while supportive, asked her what was going on and she said they did not believe in birth control and were going to let God decide their family size. My wife said, “you are 25 years old, if you let God/nature decide, you will have 20 children by the time you are 50.” Our daughter said God wouldn’t send anything that she couldn’t handle.”
Daughter’s explanation - as presented - is not in line with Church teachings. This leads me to 2 possible conclusions:
1 - Daughter is mistaken in what the Church actually says about family size, or
2 - Daughter is purposefully misrepresenting what the Church teaches, possibly because she knows mom and dad are going to question the wisdom of having baby number 4 right now.
In either case, those are problems that might also need to be addressed. Also, in either case, it illustrates that daughters current situation is not something that has been in any way imposed on her thanks to her faith.