Help me understand this

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haedron said:

“While I don’t disagree with some of these options, salary is often times adjusted to compensate for cost of living in various areas - I know that’s true in my field. This plan is fine if SIL can make comparable money in a lower cost of living area. It doesn’t work so well if he has to take a pay-cut commensurate with the going rate in the lower cost of living area and maintains the same debt:income ratio.”

At this point, given the financial situation the OP described, I wouldn’t put a dime into either student loans or other unsecured debt repayment. This family needs all available resources just to pay for basic living expenses (food, utilities, shelter, transportation–what Dave Ramsey calls “the four walls”). In their shoes, I’d tell any creditors to go pound sand. (Unless there was some sort of issue with security clearances, of course.)
 
No, you are wrong. While one may use NFP and may discern to limit family size there is nothing in Church teaching that mandates it. Seriously step back for a second and think about it. Would you say that the poor Catholics in war torn areas of third world countries should not procreate? No, the Church has never taught this historically or geographically. When you judge the daughter’s faith this way you are the same as those who stare judgingly at someone for not having MORE kids. Quite simply the Daughter could have that mindset and be in line with the Church, she could also have your mindset and think it imprudent and be in line with the Church. The Church does not now, nor ever has taught that a poor child or one who is starving or one who is brought into persecution was ill conceived. Just think of some of the saints who were born to Holy parents with little to no ability to really adequately care for them in the way we Americans deem appropriate. Not to mention the environment that Jesus was born in. Oppression, bad politics, poverty, and persecution. They had to flee to another country just to keep him alive.
Well I would say that it is possible to wish for no more children, but still love and accept those that are conceived.

We would never want our daughter to abort.

But saying “no more” is not the same as saying “we won’t love and care for any more that come along.”

The children we don’t want her to have do not yet exist.
 
Well I would say that it is possible to wish for no more children, but still love and accept those that are conceived.

We would never want our daughter to abort.

But saying “no more” is not the same as saying “we won’t love and care for any more that come along.”

The children we don’t want her to have do not yet exist.
I really understand your thought there. I understand that you are unfamiliar with this idea of procreation being something that is holy and ordered within a Christian Marriage. Heck, as you can see, us Catholics are still trying to sort out what it is that we believe.

And while I disagree with you and do not share your worldview, I sympathize with your frustrations. And I have been quite harsh with you in this thread and I hope that you can see that it is part of my strait shooting personality and do not take offense. This thread has been lively and I am so glad you have continued to post as some can get a little intimidated when they are part of such a timely and contested issue. In your original; post you were out of line with your language in regard to your family. I am pretty sure I can chalk that up to your hands in the air frustrations with this. Is Dave Ramsey an option? Can you have a levelheaded logical theological discussion with your SIL and Daughter to understand their theology here. You can see that it is not just “Catholics” in general but their own personal theology which is probably Catholic but as Catholics there is a wide spectrum. Do you understand that artificial birth control is something they believe is mortal sin? Certainly more than your daughter getting more money or a better education is the idea that she gain heaven right? Well, she is trying her best within the Church that Christ Himself founded.

Help them. And let them help you.
Let your grandchildren make your soul wealthy. Let your pain and frustration be united to Christ on the Cross and assist them out of the Love that He would have for them. Even if you theologically disagree, you can gain virtue by sacrificing for them and watching them sacrifice for their children. As God sacrificed for us.

And a much belated “Welcome to the Forums” 👍
 
Well I would say that it is possible to wish for no more children, but still love and accept those that are conceived.

We would never want our daughter to abort.

But saying “no more” is not the same as saying “we won’t love and care for any more that come along.”

The children we don’t want her to have do not yet exist.
But that is the whole thing–YOU don’t want her to have more children, YOU want her to live a “better” life, YOU want her to live up to her “potential” by having the job YOU want her to have. It’s not your call to make. It is hers, her husband’s and God’s to make.

I still don’t understand why they need to stay in such an expensive area. The last house I rented was a 3 bedroom, 2 bath with a 1 acre yard and we paid $650 a month. My mortgage now in a different state is less than $800 a month and we have 3.5 acres of land. Not only is housing cheaper but I can almost guarantee food, utilities, gas, and everything else is cheaper. I have never had in person help. No one helps with my kids, cleans my house, cooks my dinner, runs my errands. I live far from both families. My husband and I did not have date nights until our older kids were able to babysit for us, and still they don’t happen frequently and are usually free activities. I have never had a manicure and honestly never felt the need to have one anyway. We have a large garden and chickens to help with food costs, and believe me it is ten kinds of fun making a cross country military move with our crazy goose in the van. We don’t go on vacations and chose the lake (free!) over the pool ($2.50 a person). My kids wear hand me downs and we don’t have cable TV. We go to the park or museums instead of the movies, and we go on picnics instead of to restaurants. And do you know what? We have survived and are happy. These things builds team work and they build trust. It causes a couple to form an unbreakable bond. Generations of Americans have moved away from their families. Think of all the immigrants that came here from Europe, Asia, South and Central America, Africa, and remember the pioneers who moved west. The difference is now we have phones and computers to stay connected and multiple types of transportation to use for visits. In past generations, moving was often good bye forever. Now it’s just see you later, email or text or call or mail until next time we are together. Let them live their lives in their own way.

To the poster that said that the older kids celebrate the new birth of a younger sibling–you are definitely describing my kids!!! No one is happier than my kids when a new baby is coming. Most large families are the same way from my observation. We never have had a child upset when one more joins the party.
 
To the poster that said that the older kids celebrate the new birth of a younger sibling–you are definitely describing my kids!!! No one is happier than my kids when a new baby is coming. Most large families are the same way from my observation. We never have had a child upset when one more joins the party.
This is also true of our family. Every single one of them, including the boys in high school, were always excited when they heard I was pregnant again. Long after the youngest was born, they all kept hoping for more siblings, both the older and the younger kids.

I am still curious about the SIL: what his job is that he can’t possibly do it anywhere else, what kind of work he does that is so poorly paid, if he has a college degree.
 
But that is the whole thing–YOU don’t want her to have more children, YOU want her to live a “better” life, YOU want her to live up to her “potential” by having the job YOU want her to have. It’s not your call to make. It is hers, her husband’s and God’s to make.

I still don’t understand why they need to stay in such an expensive area. The last house I rented was a 3 bedroom, 2 bath with a 1 acre yard and we paid $650 a month. My mortgage now in a different state is less than $800 a month and we have 3.5 acres of land. Not only is housing cheaper but I can almost guarantee food, utilities, gas, and everything else is cheaper. I have never had in person help. No one helps with my kids, cleans my house, cooks my dinner, runs my errands. I live far from both families. My husband and I did not have date nights until our older kids were able to babysit for us, and still they don’t happen frequently and are usually free activities. I have never had a manicure and honestly never felt the need to have one anyway. We have a large garden and chickens to help with food costs, and believe me it is ten kinds of fun making a cross country military move with our crazy goose in the van. We don’t go on vacations and chose the lake (free!) over the pool ($2.50 a person). My kids wear hand me downs and we don’t have cable TV. We go to the park or museums instead of the movies, and we go on picnics instead of to restaurants. And do you know what? We have survived and are happy. These things builds team work and they build trust. It causes a couple to form an unbreakable bond. Generations of Americans have moved away from their families. Think of all the immigrants that came here from Europe, Asia, South and Central America, Africa, and remember the pioneers who moved west. The difference is now we have phones and computers to stay connected and multiple types of transportation to use for visits. In past generations, moving was often good bye forever. Now it’s just see you later, email or text or call or mail until next time we are together. Let them live their lives in their own way.

To the poster that said that the older kids celebrate the new birth of a younger sibling–you are definitely describing my kids!!! No one is happier than my kids when a new baby is coming. Most large families are the same way from my observation. We never have had a child upset when one more joins the party.
First off, where do you live and are there houses near you because my wife would probably consider your life a fantasy. A great fantasy. Probably can’t swing the eight kids due to health reasons 😦 but we could always adopt or foster!

And yes, I’m serious. We shell out $1200 a month for our smallish rented 3-bedroom house with a little fenced in yard. It’s nice, but I would for sure rather have a bigger place with way more room for the kids to run!
 
We live in an ideal place. Our mortgage is under $700 for a private acreage with three-bedroom house and two baths. It’s perfect. Why shouldn’t they move?
We had four children and when things were really tight we chose to relocate, knowing we would never ask for help. The grandparents were sad to see the grandchildren go but we had to do what was best for our family.
Please don’t keep your daughter in such an expensive place. They would do better elsewhere. I also wouldn’t keep paying for various things if they are grown adults. Let them figure out their budget.
 
Daughter’s explanation - as presented - is not in line with Church teachings. This leads me to 2 possible conclusions:

1 - Daughter is mistaken in what the Church actually says about family size, or
2 - Daughter is purposefully misrepresenting what the Church teaches, possibly because she knows mom and dad are going to question the wisdom of having baby number 4 right now.

In either case, those are problems that might also need to be addressed. Also, in either case, it illustrates that daughters current situation is not something that has been in any way imposed on her thanks to her faith.
I can see an option 3 - that it’s a kindly response to someone acting like you are doing something dreadfully wrong in having your lovely children and caring for them. I can definitely see myself saying “Well I’m sure it will be alright and that God has our back, thanks for your concern, though” or similar as a polite alternative to telling an intrusive, but ultimately concerned parent to stop being so awful and go stuff themselves.
 
We live in an ideal place. Our mortgage is under $700 for a private acreage with three-bedroom house and two baths. It’s perfect. Why shouldn’t they move?
We had four children and when things were really tight we chose to relocate, knowing we would never ask for help. The grandparents were sad to see the grandchildren go but we had to do what was best for our family.
Please don’t keep your daughter in such an expensive place. They would do better elsewhere. I also wouldn’t keep paying for various things if they are grown adults. Let them figure out their budget.
I am not keeping them anywhere, they are grown adults and free to move wherever they wish. But, I seriously doubt they would move. We don’t live in a metro area at all, we live in a suburb. There is no cheaper area within 50 miles unless you want to live in the gang area. $1400 is VERY inexpensive. Their home is a dump, to be honest.

I just don’t think they would move. They really cherish the value of having extended family nearby, aunts and uncles and grandparents for the kids. Someday, soon probably, cousins too. I raised my girls near my wife’s family and the role the grandparents played was invaluable and something I (and they) wouldn’t trade for all the tea in China or any amount of money. All three of my girls got up and spoke at their Grandma’s funeral last year in such a moving and intimate way that would not be possible if they’d only visited twice a year. She was like a second mother to the girls. I know my daughter wants that for her kids too. They are just very family oriented in that way.

On top of that, my son in law’s business is local, he details cars and has built up a clientele. He could move it elsewhere but would need to start from ground zero to build up a clientele and honestly I am not sure people in other areas get their cars detailed like they do here.

One thing I have considered is building a 5 bedroom granny flat on my property and just letting them live there for cheap. I know what everyone means about letting them “sink or swim” - but I have worked my whole life for the benefit of my family. I never buy things for myself, I just work for my wife and the girls, and now my grandkids. There is no need for me to hoard my money when my child and her kids are going without.
 
First off, where do you live and are there houses near you because my wife would probably consider your life a fantasy. A great fantasy. Probably can’t swing the eight kids due to health reasons 😦 but we could always adopt or foster!

And yes, I’m serious. We shell out $1200 a month for our smallish rented 3-bedroom house with a little fenced in yard. It’s nice, but I would for sure rather have a bigger place with way more room for the kids to run!
I sent you a PM in response to this. Didn’t want to say on open forum. Hope you understand.
 
My daughter is in a 1,000 sq foot 2 bedroom condo. No yard. This is as bare bones cheap as our area gets besides living in a gang ridden area or renting a room in someone’s home (about 900.00)

Leaving is not an option. Both her sisters are local and both my son in law’s parents and siblings are here. They need the in person help too much to leave and my son in law’s business can’t relocate.
As I said before, you aren’t helping them if they are dependent on you for shelter, utilities, and food. If anything were to happen to you and/or your wife, where would your daughter and her family be? They’d have no way to pay their bills. You have to stop letting them depend on you, help them learn to live within their means while helping them increase their means. This will very likely include them moving to a less expensive area and commuting for work and family visits.
 
FordDad1958 said:

“They are just very family oriented in that way.”

Then they’re going to be family-oriented and broke and squeezed into a tiny home with a growing family.

For somewhat under $1700 a month, we have a 2900 sq. ft. 3BR+1/3.5BA house in a fabulous neighborhood walking distance from my husband’s work in Texas. That’s mortgage, taxes, etc, with about a third of that being the property taxes–the mortgage payment itself is only about $1100.

There is life outside California.

“On top of that, my son in law’s business is local, he details cars and has built up a clientele. He could move it elsewhere but would need to start from ground zero to build up a clientele and honestly I am not sure people in other areas get their cars detailed like they do here.”

He’s got a great clientele that isn’t paying his rent and utilities.

We used to live in Washington DC (spent six happy years in the suburbs and DC proper), and left when we realized that it was crazy to be broke on $60-70k a year and that at the time, there weren’t any tolerable houses available for under $400k.

“One thing I have considered is building a 5 bedroom granny flat on my property and just letting them live there for cheap. I know what everyone means about letting them “sink or swim” - but I have worked my whole life for the benefit of my family. I never buy things for myself, I just work for my wife and the girls, and now my grandkids. There is no need for me to hoard my money when my child and her kids are going without.”

You already resent doing what you are already doing for them and you don’t respect what your daughter is doing. Moving them onto your property is just going to aggravate that.

For the sake of your relationship with them, their marriage, your daughter’s relationship with her siblings (the other sisters will definitely notice disparities in generosity), and your daughter and SIL’s dignity, your help should be of the teach-a-man-to-fish variety.

By the way, have you read “The Millionaire Next Door”? There’s a bunch of material in there about the perils of doing what you are planning to do for your daughter and her family. Apparently, the kind of giving that you envision does not actually improve the earning power or the bottom line of the beneficiaries.

From the Wikipedia summary of “The Millionaire Next Door” (apologies in advance for the ridiculous acronyms):

“Economic Outpatient Care (EOC) is a term used to express when an affluent parent provides money to an adult child. Besides offspring observations resulting in UAW children, EOC is a contributing factor to the passing on of the UAW belief. Offspring who receive EOC have 98% of the annual income compared to their counterparts who are not recipients of EOC. In comparison, they also have 57% of the net worth.[1] EOC gives recipients a false sense of financial security. For this reason they purchase homes in upscale neighborhoods that exceed the recommended value according to their incomes. Thirty percent of American families live in homes valued at $300,000, yet only earn an annual income of $60,000.[1] These homes then demand nice cars for the driveway, nice furniture for the living room, and a nice plasma TV to complement the furniture. These offspring also purchase and consume the EOC rather than invest it. If a dose of EOC is given on a regular basis, the EOC can actually be absorbed into the individual’s perceived annual income. Expenditures are then calculated with the anticipation of a regularly scheduled dose of EOC.”

UAW is the “Millionaire Next Door” acronym for “underaccumulators of wealth”–i.e. high income people who underperform with regard to savings and investments.

While the consumption described may not sound like your daughter and her family, if you follow through on your plan, you may be accidentally financially crippling them, all the while thinking you’re a nice, generous person.
 
I am not keeping them anywhere, they are grown adults and free to move wherever they wish. But, I seriously doubt they would move. We don’t live in a metro area at all, we live in a suburb. There is no cheaper area within 50 miles unless you want to live in the gang area. $1400 is VERY inexpensive. Their home is a dump, to be honest.

I just don’t think they would move. They really cherish the value of having extended family nearby, aunts and uncles and grandparents for the kids. Someday, soon probably, cousins too. I raised my girls near my wife’s family and the role the grandparents played was invaluable and something I (and they) wouldn’t trade for all the tea in China or any amount of money. All three of my girls got up and spoke at their Grandma’s funeral last year in such a moving and intimate way that would not be possible if they’d only visited twice a year. She was like a second mother to the girls. I know my daughter wants that for her kids too. They are just very family oriented in that way.

On top of that, my son in law’s business is local, he details cars and has built up a clientele. He could move it elsewhere but would need to start from ground zero to build up a clientele and honestly I am not sure people in other areas get their cars detailed like they do here.

One thing I have considered is building a 5 bedroom granny flat on my property and just letting them live there for cheap. I know what everyone means about letting them “sink or swim” - but I have worked my whole life for the benefit of my family. I never buy things for myself, I just work for my wife and the girls, and now my grandkids. There is no need for me to hoard my money when my child and her kids are going without.
The housing option might not be a bad idea if you seriously want to do that. I do understand Family being important and an asset. The reason your daughter enjoys motherhood is probably due in large part to having a close relationship to her own mother and grandmother. Family is important and if they are determined to stay in that area, and if you have the resources and WANT to help out I guess it is fine to do so. But you need to do that without the comments and judgment.

Your son in law’s business is one I know quite a bit about. My oldest son’s girlfriend went to Nashville for voc. school and that is what she studied, along with collision repair. She makes a good living on her own at 20, and my son working for the rail road, well if he chooses marriage over religious vocation, they will have a terrific life together. I’m praying he chooses marriage. They are so good together. But if she stops working to raise their kids, I don’t see that as wrong! I would be so proud either way. Being a military family I can assure you that in any military community, car detailing is big time business. Housing near Army posts is also cheaper than in many areas of the country. You may want to mention to your son in law that it may be easier to afford a big family in a less expensive region and see what he thinks.

It’s not easy being a parent to adult kids. My husband and I constantly bite our tongues when the big kids mention they are doing this or that, and we worry beyond what I thought was possible. Parenthood doesn’t end at the magic age of 18, and the concerns and worries sometimes are bigger than when they were young or even teens. I know my husband prides himself on being a good provider and it sounds as if you do as well. It bothers men to know that their kids are living in a way they think is evident that they didn’t provide well enough. Men also want to fix things when problems or perceived problems arise. But children are not the reasons for the problem in this situation, and I think deep down you know that. Your son in law is also a fixer as I’m sure you know. He too is a provider. And as bad as you want him to do a better job at it (your opinion), think of how it would affect you if someone thought that way about you. How would your wife react if her father insulted you? I know it’s hard, but you do need to accept that the life they choose to live is different than you expected for her, but that is ok! It’s their choice to make. If you are determined to keep doing and giving (which I find admirable), please do it in a way that is free and loving instead of full of judgment and with strings attached.
 
I am not keeping them anywhere, they are grown adults and free to move wherever they wish. But, I seriously doubt they would move. We don’t live in a metro area at all, we live in a suburb. There is no cheaper area within 50 miles unless you want to live in the gang area. $1400 is VERY inexpensive. Their home is a dump, to be honest.

I just don’t think they would move. They really cherish the value of having extended family nearby, aunts and uncles and grandparents for the kids. Someday, soon probably, cousins too. I raised my girls near my wife’s family and the role the grandparents played was invaluable and something I (and they) wouldn’t trade for all the tea in China or any amount of money. All three of my girls got up and spoke at their Grandma’s funeral last year in such a moving and intimate way that would not be possible if they’d only visited twice a year. She was like a second mother to the girls. I know my daughter wants that for her kids too. They are just very family oriented in that way.

On top of that, my son in law’s business is local, he details cars and has built up a clientele. He could move it elsewhere but would need to start from ground zero to build up a clientele and honestly I am not sure people in other areas get their cars detailed like they do here.

One thing I have considered is building a 5 bedroom granny flat on my property and just letting them live there for cheap. I know what everyone means about letting them “sink or swim” - but I have worked my whole life for the benefit of my family. I never buy things for myself, I just work for my wife and the girls, and now my grandkids. There is no need for me to hoard my money when my child and her kids are going without.
This is really getting to the heart of the matter. There are all kinds of decisions being made, other than the decision to follow their Catholic faith, that are impacting this family. If they live in a 2 bedroom condo that costs 1400 a month, having had only two children really wouldn’t have had them in much better shape.

If there’s nowhere cheaper within 50 miles, then they look for a place 55 or 60 miles out. Son in law commutes to continue with his current clients while he begins building up clientele closer to home. By the way, once again, my position is very similar. My work, just like his, depends on building up my own clientele, and when we moved from a metro area to a place with much lower housing prices, this is exactly what I did. I built up my clientele in the new place, while I commuted to keep my current income. Gradually, I shifted over, and was able to stop the commute.

I’m also wondering, given your focus on things like manicures, how much unnecessary spending is going on. I know you said she doesn’t fritter money, but if she was raised with the atmosphere and belief that monthly manicures are just part of normal life, then maybe there’s plenty of money being spent on such things that she believes are normal, and just small things…but things that many people would never consider spending on. Maybe she’s not seeing how $25 here and $20 there adds up, given the circumstances in which it sounds like she was raised, and your own view of how essential music lessons and manicures are.

(I’ve never had a manicure in my life, and I don’t feel the least bit deprived.)

They may have to make the decision to move 60 or 100 miles away. Doing so does not in any way require their relationship with you to be cut down to only once or twice a year. I know people who make that drive daily for work, so they can certainly continue seeing you often.

Maybe he could use some advice in marketing and building up his business, if at his age he really can’t support three children.

There is a very strong theme running through this thread, from many people, that it is not wise to continue financing your daughter and son in law. I’ll say again that at a certain point, I realized my father’s ‘help,’ not only came with strings attached (strings that were hurting me, and tying me to unhealthy behaviors), but his help was teaching me insidiously, whether he meant to or not, that I just wasn’t capable of doing it on my own.
 
7armyrugrats said:

“Being a military family I can assure you that in any military community, car detailing is big time business.”

That is a very good point! I remember noticing a lot of auto decor businesses near Ft. Hood.

That’s definitely not an only-in-CA business.

“I know my husband prides himself on being a good provider and it sounds as if you do as well.”

And SIL would probably also like to pride himself on being a good provider–if the OP would step back and let him take over.

I’m a big Dave Ramsey fan (he’s the radio personal finance guy), and he has adult children. I remember hearing him talking about how affluent parents of adult children need to be careful not to accidentally mess with their children’s marriages with gifts. One of the examples he gave was that his wife likes taking her married daughters out shopping. As DR was pointing out, there is a danger there of accidentally emasculating the daughters’ husbands, so he was cautioning his wife to step it down. And that was just a case of a frill for very comfortably off newlyweds–the risk of accidentally emasculating your SIL when he’s financially struggling is much higher.

He’s a man and a father. He may not be able to support his family right now, but that’s a role he needs help growing into.

holyrood said:

“If they live in a 2 bedroom condo that costs 1400 a month, having had only two children really wouldn’t have had them in much better shape.”

Yes. My husband and I once lived in a lovely 2-bedroom apartment in the DC suburbs that was $1560 a month. There were just the two of us and a baby. We struggled.

“If there’s nowhere cheaper within 50 miles, then they look for a place 55 or 60 miles out.”

Yes.

“Maybe she’s not seeing how $25 here and $20 there adds up, given the circumstances in which it sounds like she was raised, and your own view of how essential music lessons and manicures are.”

Yes. I imagine that growing up in an upper-middle class home wouldn’t be very good preparation for raising a family on a middle-middle class or lower-middle class income.

That’s where a personal finance class like Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University comes in, for both of them.

If you’re up for it, I would attach a financial incentive, maybe something like $50-100 per class attended.
 
A few people here said it best so my (name removed by moderator)ut may be superfluous but I think that I’ll post it anyway as my perspective comes from an older person maybe that’s a good thing.

“One thing I have considered is building a 5 bedroom granny flat on my property and just letting them live there for cheap. I know what everyone means about letting them “sink or swim” - but I have worked my whole life for the benefit of my family. I never buy things for myself, I just work for my wife and the girls, and now my grandkids. There is no need for me to hoard my money when my child and her kids are going without.”

Even though many may think that your generosity knows no bounds consider that this may be too expensive for your daughter and her hubby spiritually and emotionally. It is clear that you believe that you have an (name removed by moderator)ut into their lives to the point of the most sacred between a man and a woman. How much greater an (name removed by moderator)ut you will believe that you have if you essentially take your little girl back albeit in an unattached wing of your house. My husband commuted 60 miles for 16 years. Due to a financial setback we were forced to move from Orange County, CA (near the beach) to the Inland Empire of CA. Sound fancy but San Bernardino is in the Inland Empire so you get the idea. We had no help from either my parents or his. It was rough. Everyone we knew was going from average wages to wages enough to buy beautiful houses. We felt like the country mice. Sometime during our rough times someone offered to buy property and build houses for all my siblings and us on his land. He is a very controlling person and we knew what he had in mind. Hubby and I laughed all the way home saying that he wanted to build “Leningrad”. Here we are, now in our older years living in AZ in a not so very big house but more than adequate for our needs or even our wants and we have enough money to live comfortably. We never got our McMansion but the house we moved from in CA was one of the neighborhoods beauties in one of the best neighborhoods in the city, it sold in 3 days for top dollar, in fact we raised the comps. Where your daughter is right now is not necessarily where she will be in a few years. Please don’t look down on her if they don’t buy the equivalent of a gracious home in Holmby Hills. The day that they finally get their first 3 bdrm. House, celebrate with them

Apparently you have quite a bit of disposable money. Can you use some of that to help your SIL start a business in a less expensive area while he commutes (in the spirit of give him a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for life)? Even if your lovely daughter does not want to move away from her “support group” as my niece calls it, it seems so necessary to me. If you stopped making it possible for them to live in the more expensive area perhaps they will come to the conclusion that they need to make a change. Please don’t withhold your help immediately take your time to transition but stop sometime with adequate notice and suggestions like the one about building a business farther out while he commutes with maybe your help initially.

Annie
 
What I fear is that my daughter has been “caught” in a situation where my son in law sees her as needing to have continuous babies.
You know that she made the decision to get married when she did. She didn’t go as far as what you were thinking she was going to go, but she made the decision. Something about that husband of hers made her decide to get married and start a family, and not staying single longer to pursue that career. She made that decision.
But this is his religion telling them that “God only sends what people can handle.” And frankly, I just don’t believe that mentality.
I was the daughter in this situation, becoming Catholic as an adult, and marrying a Catholic later on. To have a parent question the decisions that my husband and I made together was none of their business, and to say “God only sends what people can handle” is a very polite way of handling an awkward situation. She could have answered in a much ruder way and put your questions to an end. She was being kind, it doesn’t mean that’s what they think, because really the decisions between husband and wife are not for you to be in on. So frankly, don’t sweat that answer. It’s a ‘go to’ reply to questions that are rude and prying.
she should fulfill her potential and not just throw away her dreams - and they were HER dreams - just so that she can provide her husband with endless children.

I do not have a problem with larger families at all, but when you see your child throw away her dreams and just adopt someone else’s idea of what a “good wife and mother” is and does, it’s very upsetting.
She is fulfilling her potential. You don’t have a crystal ball to the future and maybe if you did, you may see these babies now, grown up, and be very proud of how amazing they turned out. She certainly could have been going a certain direction but found something greater, something she could put her whole heart and soul in, something that makes everything else make sense.

Don’t put that on her, “someone else’s idea of what a 'good wife and mother” is. She entered this marriage with full knowledge and consent and for now, put her career aside. Tired? yes. Exhausted? yes. You know what I saw in the work place? The same thing. Wives who had 2 kids, were working full time, and were tired and exhausted, because, guess what? They had to still take care of young ones in the middle of the night when they were sick, still had to arrange those doctor and dentist appointments, still had to be the one to organize meals, laundry, housecleaning, etc. What I saw was very tired women, and I heard about how the husbands enjoyed their extra curricular activities with boats, snow mobiles and golf memberships, trips, big trucks to pull all these things, houses that were bigger than they needed, vacations that were expensive and annual, etc. Boys with their toys. Are these women ‘trapped’ in this expensive lifestyle? They may indeed say no because they have to support this lifestyle. They can’t imagine anything else. If you think women with only 2 kids and working full time aren’t exhausted, think again.
We have to work for what we want, we make our own luck,
I am very surprised at the attitude here. Of course we have to work for what we want, but as a Christian, I understand that if my husband and I are not plugged into the mercy and grace of God to the best of our ability, we will be building on sandy soil, and when the rains come, it all will be washed away. Our ability to wake up, swing our legs over and put our feet on the floor is because God is helping us. If He would turn His face from us for a moment, we would no longer exist. My husband has been unemployed a number of times in our marriage and our eyes were always fixed on God and we always saw His fingerprints on doors that opened, direction shown. Many times we were amazed. You control what you can but be under the Lordship of Christ and His righteousness, and He will guide your path. Our time here is short, and eternity is a very long time. I would never want to come before the judgement seat of God and have him say “I never knew you”.
 
I’d be ashamed if my daughter was a Welfare Queen… and I know my parents would be ashamed if I was a Welfare Queen. She’s indsicriminantly popping out children that she can’t afford. I’m sorry- she CANNOT afford to stay at home and be a “wife and mother” when grandma and grandpa are paying the rent and utilities, and you and I are paying for their healthcare.

If you can’t afford to pay your own bills and you’re on government assistance you have no business reproducing. Either dutifully practice NFP or abstain. It’s irresponsible to bring more and more children into poverty.
This. I am tired of paying for people to have kids they can’t afford.
 
I think one of the important issues here was touched on but needs to be expanded upon. What is official church teaching on family size? I thought this article explained things rather well…

catholiclane.com/john-paul-ii-family-size-and-christian-prudence/

Especially this part:

However, if followed blindly without taking into account the future of the children a couple already has, the woman’s health, or other just reasons, providentialism can become a reckless lack of prudence. Pope John Paul II was clear on this issue:

”Unfortunately, Catholic thought is often misunderstood on this point “responsible parenthood”], as if the Church supported an ideology of fertility at all costs, urging married couples to procreate indiscriminately and without thought for the future.”1 He went on to say that a couple cannot be motivated by “selfishness or carelessness, but by a prudent, conscious generosity that weighs the possibilities and circumstances, and especially gives priority to the welfare of the unborn child.

Therefore, when there is reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may even be necessary. However, there remains the duty of carrying it out with criteria and methods that respect the total truth of the marital act in its unitive and procreative dimension, as wisely regulated by nature itself in its biological rhythms. One can comply with them and use them to their advantage, but they cannot be ‘violated’ by artificial interference.”
So my question is does the daughter properly understand church teaching?

Either:
  1. She currently wants and accepts children as fast as they will come
  2. She is practicing NFP that is not working for her and she is hiding behind the “we will have as many as god gives us” mentality…in which case I don’t really understand because saying that she is TRYING to space out her family, but things aren’t working out that way is completely in line with church teaching… in fact it may help the OP to understand that she is TRYING to be a responsible parent.
There are different types of NFP and some methods work better than others (everyone is different) … I am sure in CA she could find an OB/GYN that promotes NFP that will work with her on this idea.

She needs to understand that the church DOES teach that it is ok to space children out for good reasons… (which I think she has).
 
First of all, congratulations on all your grandchildren!!

Your daughter doesn’t want to go back to school, and why should she? She made her choice.

Let’s say she goes back to school. Still, there are no jobs for her, and/or she is overqualified and has school loans to pay off, plus she is now in a divorce because she hasn’t had enough time to tend to the needs of her marriage.

She LEFT school because she loves her family more than she loves “school”, or the world’s view of 1. sitting in a class for an hour while a teacher charges you 2. be handed a piece of paper with a tassel. She loves her children more.

Who cares if she looks like she is 19, 35, 95??? When was it ever written in the Bible: “This person didn’t look their age” I think only in Samuel it was noted “he is handsome and tall but do not be deceived I did not chose him” said the Lord

Grateful: 1. your daughter is alive and loves Christ. There are many who do not.

Maybe one of your granddkids will be a doctor or a pilot???

Source: summa cum laude Master’s Degree woman
 
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