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Annie39
Guest
And you teach Catechism to our wee ones? Saints preserve us.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
Actually, I’m tired of paying for teen moms to live on their own, abortions by the millions, and prisons that are busting. A mom and dad, who need some help and may indeed be in a different situation in a few years is not so annoying.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
Both your comment and the comment you responded to are rude and uncalled for. There is no evidence at all that this is a “welfare queen” or unable to truly afford to have kids. All that has been presented was that they cannot afford the life grandpa feels they should have. Being on government insurance is not living off the government especially since all families are legally required to have insurance now. I really hope you are not teaching catechism to children, but it is probably why so many posters here have the attitudes they do. They were taught it at a young age.
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Hockeygurl
Guest
4 kids in a 2 bedroom, 1,000 sq ft condo with no yard… She needs all the prayers she can get or she will completely lose her marbles.
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1ke
Guest
FordDad,
I can appreciate your concern for your daughter and your grandchildren.
It sounds like you are supplementing them to a degree that is really indicative of their own lack of responsibility related to finances.
First of all, your entire premise is that Catholicity is at the root of this. It isn’t. There is **no **teaching in the Catholic Church that says you must have as many children as possible, one after another, etc. The Church does not teach Providentialism. The Church teaches that we are to respond generously to the vocation of marriage, and we are to be good stewards and responsible parents.
Your daughter has made choices about her education, her career, her family life, and her goals. They aren’t the ones you would make. But, she has every right to make them. And you are going to have to make peace with this.
It’s my opinion, but neither she nor your SIL have made very good decisions, and I am not talking about the children. The children are not the problem. It sounds like they would not be able to afford to live even with **zero **children. They’ve made vocational choices, family choices, and geographic choices that are not responsible. You subsidizing them just makes it worse.
They seem to have no compunction about asking you for money. That indicates something far more deeply wrong with this entire scenario. They see nothing wrong with having you foot the bill for their life choices. This is fundamentally flawed.
Their choices remain theirs to make. But you are going to have to choose to stop subsidizing them and make peace with their own choices.
If you continue to subsidize their life, you have no one to blame but yourself for their continued co-dependence and disregard for the FACTS of their financial situation. In fact, perhaps deep down, even unconsciously, you are feeding the co-dependence.
Perhaps you **all **need some professional help to see that this co-dependent situation is not good for ANY of you.
I can appreciate your concern for your daughter and your grandchildren.
It sounds like you are supplementing them to a degree that is really indicative of their own lack of responsibility related to finances.
First of all, your entire premise is that Catholicity is at the root of this. It isn’t. There is **no **teaching in the Catholic Church that says you must have as many children as possible, one after another, etc. The Church does not teach Providentialism. The Church teaches that we are to respond generously to the vocation of marriage, and we are to be good stewards and responsible parents.
Your daughter has made choices about her education, her career, her family life, and her goals. They aren’t the ones you would make. But, she has every right to make them. And you are going to have to make peace with this.
It’s my opinion, but neither she nor your SIL have made very good decisions, and I am not talking about the children. The children are not the problem. It sounds like they would not be able to afford to live even with **zero **children. They’ve made vocational choices, family choices, and geographic choices that are not responsible. You subsidizing them just makes it worse.
They seem to have no compunction about asking you for money. That indicates something far more deeply wrong with this entire scenario. They see nothing wrong with having you foot the bill for their life choices. This is fundamentally flawed.
Their choices remain theirs to make. But you are going to have to choose to stop subsidizing them and make peace with their own choices.
If you continue to subsidize their life, you have no one to blame but yourself for their continued co-dependence and disregard for the FACTS of their financial situation. In fact, perhaps deep down, even unconsciously, you are feeding the co-dependence.
Perhaps you **all **need some professional help to see that this co-dependent situation is not good for ANY of you.
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TeachCatechism
Guest
Because people shouldn’t have kids that taxpayers support. It’s really not that difficult to understand. There is NFP that works well.
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TeachCatechism
Guest
I don’t want to pay for any of that. This couple is having kids they can’t support which makes them no different than the teen moms.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
Maybe not. Many happy families live in far worse circumstances and mom is far from losing her marbles. We need to quit trying to project our feelings onto other people. Just because many people choose a different lifestyle does not mean that someone else is unhappy living a life we couldn’t handle. There are many different paths to happiness. I love having a big family. During military moves we often have 10 people in a hotel for months at a time. We don’t see it as hard and uncomfortable. It is our family and we love it. We have had to live in housing built for a family of 3 for a year at a time because it was all we could afford in some areas and post housing was full, but it was our home and we were joyful.
What will make mom lose her marbles without a doubt is if people continually tell her how difficult things are for her and criticize her decisions and happiness.
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FordDad1958
Guest
Look I didn’t mean manicures every week. But I don’t think it’s silly to want your grown children to have some quality of life. Some small amount of flexibility with their money. Life should not be all drudgery, work, sleepless nights, toil and sacrifice. Raising kids kids is great but it has to be balanced with an adult life too. Not saying they need to cruise the Mediterranean, but an occasional night out or money for a hobby seems healthy.
That’s really all I want for her. To have a balanced life. You can say having a kid every 18 months for 25 years and never doing anything but cook, clean, clip coupons and take care of kids is enough for some but for most people, that’s a recipe for misery and feeling unfulfilled. She is just not the Holly Hobby type.
That’s really all I want for her. To have a balanced life. You can say having a kid every 18 months for 25 years and never doing anything but cook, clean, clip coupons and take care of kids is enough for some but for most people, that’s a recipe for misery and feeling unfulfilled. She is just not the Holly Hobby type.
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Cupofkindness
Guest
I’ve been following this discussion. FYI, I have a masters degree from a prestigious university. I would trade that in a heart-beat for a two or three year jump on starting my family. I began my family in my late 20s. We have seven children. I’ve never had a manicure. And I am happy.
Thank you for loving your daughter so generously, FordDad. I have no doubt that you will do what’s right for your children and grandchildren, and that God in His infinite goodness will bless you for it.
Thank you for loving your daughter so generously, FordDad. I have no doubt that you will do what’s right for your children and grandchildren, and that God in His infinite goodness will bless you for it.
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The_Bucket
Guest
Good Lord. You know that Randian thought is incompatible with Catholicism, right?
I’m not a fan of the welfare system we have here in the U.S. But that’s because a) I’m wary of government power and b) I think it creates a trap of dependency that ultimately degrades people who are impoverished. We should focus more on giving them hands up, not hands out… but that’s not because there is something inherently wrong with receiving help. My thought process relates to more how it is justice that everyone have work. That work is dignified.
Giving someone money to help them out temporarily is fine, but we should more focus on how people can help themselves because the right to a fair wage is indeed a right. It’s in the catechism. Look it up! That’s why I more find myself agreeing with the concepts on the economic right as opposed to the left… but rhetoric like this makes my skin crawl.
Let’s just ban everyone in the Third World from having kids too.
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Mandychu22
Guest
All of those wants for your daughter are totally reasonable, but they’re not realistic at the moment with their family income. With or without children. The number of grandchildren, frankly, is not the problem. The problem is that they’re living in an expensive area on a low income. If you want to help your daughter and her family, financial planning information is likely the best route to go. And as for relocation: 50 miles isn’t actually that far, assuming they have a car. We live further than that from both our parents and we still see them frequently.
I think you do need to realise that nobody is ever going to respond well to their parent telling them not to/ when to have sex with their spouse. It’s not, and never will be, your place to comment on the marital relations between your daughter and her husband.
I have to agree with everyone here who has said they may be telling you that they’ll ‘have as many as God sends them’ because they are truly open to more children, not because they want to actively work towards having 20 kids. That’s what I have and always will tell my parents and inlaws; we’re aiming for 3-4 as of now but that could change. I just don’t want to have to listen to my protestant inlaws extolling the virtues of the condom, or my Catholic parents telling me to be more responsible about timing intercourse, or to listen to my siblings joke about my sex life, or to listen to condolences or concerned comments (I can’t believe people think this is appropriate) if we have more than our ‘ideal’ number as of today.
Keep in mind that your idea of a balanced life may not be hers, and that priorities and desires can change with children. I know someone who swore she would never have kids and that all she wanted was her career. She’s a SAHM now, with several kids, and is the happiest (although most tired) I have ever known her to be.
While financial advice and assistance may be needed, their bedroom needs to be off limits.
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Mandychu22
Guest
I don’t see how anyone, in our culture today especially, could begrudge a struggling parent the funds to make ends meet because 'they shouldn’t have had a kid if they couldn’t afford one". The help is in place to help people get back on their feet, even if the current systems aren’t as effective as they could be. Why not just stand outside the office of an OB/GYN and escort people to the abortion clinic, or take them to be sterilized?
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1ke
Guest
Please reconsider your opinion regarding raising a large family. You consider it to be all toil and drudgery. Every post is about how horrible it is and how your daughter will hate it.
My friends with large families-- 5-8 children-- all LOVE having children, they CHOOSE to have these children. In fact, my friends who are all in my age bracket are lamenting that they can’t have MORE children.
Yes my friend with 8 kids would love to have 9 or 10 but at 48 has not been able to get pregnant again. They LOVE babies, they do not view ANY of their family life as drudgery or toil. Not poopy diapers. Not sleepless nights. Not any part of their family life.
They do not view their lives the way you view their lives.
Step outside yourself and try to see that your goals, your values, and your beliefs about the life your daughter has chosen is not a universal perspective. What may be something completely unappealing and incomprehensible to you is something that others love, and they would find your version of “the good life” unappealing.
Neither life is wrong. They are simply different. What comes across in your posts is that you think this chosen path is inherently wrong. Wrong for your daughter, and moreover it comes across that you think it’s wrong for everybody. Crazy in fact.
I think that’s what people are reacting to-- the idea you have that this life is so repulsive no one would choose it voluntarily. You are quite wrong in that regard, and I’d just ask that you try to see how insulting it is to others.
You are a loving father and grandfather. That is clear. What’s not clear is what is at the root of your daughter’s dependence on you financially. Something more is going on here.
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TeachCatechism
Guest
I have no problem with helping those who need help but this woman refuses to help herself and has kids she can’t afford, knowing she can’t afford them. It takes away from those who truly fall on hard times.
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mommamaree
Guest
Beautiful post, ke!
Yes, those of us who have or are aiming for larger families do not view family life as drudgery. For myself personally, even the nausea and vomiting of pregnancy, combined with the frequent rising overnight, and the nursing a toddler, and the homeschooling, and the cooking and cleaning and diapers and so on…It is just my daily work, and if I do it cheerfully, full of love for my children and our Lord Jesus, I have good hope that God will make me holy and bless me with His grace. That is real success. Being a good human being, loving God, loving others for the love of God, attaining heaven at the end of this earthly life…this is what a faithful Catholic strives for. I enjoy my opportunities to spend time with my friends, and I go on a rare date with my husband (about once every year), and I do have a couple cheap hobbies (which I don’t have time for currently, but I don’t worry about that). But what really gives me the most pleasure is spending time together as a family. We have lived in a small apartment and a large house. Size of the home never really mattered. What mattered was the amount of love in the home.
I really do think the young couple here should be directed toward Dave Ramsey’s system, and should be encouraged to move, if they are emotionally ready to do it. We moved away, and although it was hard, we are thriving now whereas we were struggling while we tried to stay near family. Not only can we pay all our bills, but we can save, we can afford to support our parish building our new church, and we have spending money and can afford for me to hire help! The same could very well be true if this young couple moves to an area with a lower cost of living. And pretty much everywhere, people love to get their cars detailed! I live in an old winter colony town in the South, which is now a retirement hotspot, and we have at least a dozen detailing places around town. The SIL can do a little research to find a good place to resettle his family.
Yes, those of us who have or are aiming for larger families do not view family life as drudgery. For myself personally, even the nausea and vomiting of pregnancy, combined with the frequent rising overnight, and the nursing a toddler, and the homeschooling, and the cooking and cleaning and diapers and so on…It is just my daily work, and if I do it cheerfully, full of love for my children and our Lord Jesus, I have good hope that God will make me holy and bless me with His grace. That is real success. Being a good human being, loving God, loving others for the love of God, attaining heaven at the end of this earthly life…this is what a faithful Catholic strives for. I enjoy my opportunities to spend time with my friends, and I go on a rare date with my husband (about once every year), and I do have a couple cheap hobbies (which I don’t have time for currently, but I don’t worry about that). But what really gives me the most pleasure is spending time together as a family. We have lived in a small apartment and a large house. Size of the home never really mattered. What mattered was the amount of love in the home.
I really do think the young couple here should be directed toward Dave Ramsey’s system, and should be encouraged to move, if they are emotionally ready to do it. We moved away, and although it was hard, we are thriving now whereas we were struggling while we tried to stay near family. Not only can we pay all our bills, but we can save, we can afford to support our parish building our new church, and we have spending money and can afford for me to hire help! The same could very well be true if this young couple moves to an area with a lower cost of living. And pretty much everywhere, people love to get their cars detailed! I live in an old winter colony town in the South, which is now a retirement hotspot, and we have at least a dozen detailing places around town. The SIL can do a little research to find a good place to resettle his family.
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The_Bucket
Guest
I’ll cock an eyebrow towards people who have kids with no regard to who the dad is or use children to get more money from the state… so they can then spend it on themselves and ignore their children. But that’s because such actions are not imprudent. They are evil. Flat out evil. Not because they’re a “drain on society” but because they are abusing their children.
I don’t see how anyone, in our culture today especially, could begrudge a struggling parent the funds to make ends meet because 'they shouldn’t have had a kid if they couldn’t afford one". The help is in place to help people get back on their feet, even if the current systems aren’t as effective as they could be. Why not just stand outside the office of an OB/GYN and escort people to the abortion clinic, or take them to be sterilized?
Hey, I struggled at first. I worked a $10/hr job right out of college in my chosen field… then got married… then oh snap! Baby! And my son was premature. So the state shelled out about a million dollars to keep him alive and then get him healthier.
Should I reimburse the taxpayers? Should I feel ashamed that my son was on Medicaid? Or is it OK because I had “good prospects,” I’m plenty self-sufficient now and hey, I got a much better paying job even before my son got out of the hospital. If you think it’s OK for me because my lot improved, what about those whose lot did not?
I’ve worked hard but I was also given a lot of gifts from the Lord. And I really lucked out with that job that kick-started my career to the point where I live a halfway decently comfortable life with three kids, a wife who stays at home, and some money in the bank in case of emergency. So what?
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TeachCatechism
Guest
You’re missing the point which is this woman will KEEP making babies at taxpayer’s expense. She doesn’t care. Nowhere in the bible do they talk about having babies on welfare. She can have 20 kids I don’t care, but maybe she needs to get a job to support those kids.
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Mandychu22
Guest
Your story is a perfect example of how the system works, even in it’s flawed state, and why it should be funded gladly.
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